Forgive me, but I respectfully disagree.....
09-07-2005, 05:29 PM
#16
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Your right I broke my word. 
I did not want my friend Dminn to feel neglected. 
Do you work for Porsche? My advice is to recall all of them, raise the front end to make it driveable and install PSM. It would help the owners here in the US a great deal and stabilize the falling price.
BTW, if I wanted a CGT, I could have one in one hour at a SUBSTANTIAL DISCOUNT OFF MSRP. Try buying a 430 at MSRP in the US and you will not be able to do so for probably at least three years. Enough said.
I did not want my friend Dminn to feel neglected. Do you work for Porsche? My advice is to recall all of them, raise the front end to make it driveable and install PSM. It would help the owners here in the US a great deal and stabilize the falling price.
BTW, if I wanted a CGT, I could have one in one hour at a SUBSTANTIAL DISCOUNT OFF MSRP. Try buying a 430 at MSRP in the US and you will not be able to do so for probably at least three years. Enough said.
Last edited by Nick; 09-07-2005 at 05:55 PM.
09-07-2005, 06:38 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by Nick
You have more creditability. 
BTW, here are a few questions to ponder.
1. Would the CGT in the hands of a non- professional be any less of a car if it had electronic aids?
2. Do you believe your time at the track would be less if your car had electronic aids?
3. Do you believe your track times could be faster with electronic aids?
4. Do you believe you would have less fun driving your car if it had electronic aids?
5. If Porsche sold the car with electronic aids would that have prevented you from buying it?
6. Finally, would the CGT be a safer car with electronic aids?
BTW, here are a few questions to ponder.
1. Would the CGT in the hands of a non- professional be any less of a car if it had electronic aids?
2. Do you believe your time at the track would be less if your car had electronic aids?
3. Do you believe your track times could be faster with electronic aids?
4. Do you believe you would have less fun driving your car if it had electronic aids?
5. If Porsche sold the car with electronic aids would that have prevented you from buying it?
6. Finally, would the CGT be a safer car with electronic aids?
2. Yes. My time at the track is where I want to learn how to drive, and a big part of that, IMO, is learning to feel the car and how it responds to your inputs. PSM, etc., changes that, and makes me think I'm a better driver than I actually am. No thanks.
3. Yes. But my driver abilities will not be as good, as the electronic aids are making up for my inabilities, and would make it harder for me to improve myself. If I screw up, then I want the car to let me know... not adjust things accordingly.
4. Most definitely.
5. Yes.
6. Yes. But it would also be safer if nobody was allowed to drive one. For that matter, a POS Honda is much more unsafe than the CGT, depending on the driver. Also, why the assumption that the goal is to have the safest possible car? If that were the case, then it'd have 50HP, be built like an SUV, etc.
I think your thinking is flawed.
$0.02
09-07-2005, 07:36 PM
#19
Intermediate
Do you believe your time at the track would be less if your car had electronic aids?
09-07-2005, 08:49 PM
#20
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Originally Posted by jgrant
1. Yes, as the aids would be compensating for the driver's lack of talent. You see, "less of a car" is a subjective thing, and I want something raw and unforgiving... hence my DP 935 (manual everything, no chip, no ABS, etc)... if it didn't do that, I would consider it to be a lesser car.
2. Yes. My time at the track is where I want to learn how to drive, and a big part of that, IMO, is learning to feel the car and how it responds to your inputs. PSM, etc., changes that, and makes me think I'm a better driver than I actually am. No thanks.
3. Yes. But my driver abilities will not be as good, as the electronic aids are making up for my inabilities, and would make it harder for me to improve myself. If I screw up, then I want the car to let me know... not adjust things accordingly.
4. Most definitely.
5. Yes.
6. Yes. But it would also be safer if nobody was allowed to drive one. For that matter, a POS Honda is much more unsafe than the CGT, depending on the driver. Also, why the assumption that the goal is to have the safest possible car? If that were the case, then it'd have 50HP, be built like an SUV, etc.
I think your thinking is flawed.
$0.02
2. Yes. My time at the track is where I want to learn how to drive, and a big part of that, IMO, is learning to feel the car and how it responds to your inputs. PSM, etc., changes that, and makes me think I'm a better driver than I actually am. No thanks.
3. Yes. But my driver abilities will not be as good, as the electronic aids are making up for my inabilities, and would make it harder for me to improve myself. If I screw up, then I want the car to let me know... not adjust things accordingly.
4. Most definitely.
5. Yes.
6. Yes. But it would also be safer if nobody was allowed to drive one. For that matter, a POS Honda is much more unsafe than the CGT, depending on the driver. Also, why the assumption that the goal is to have the safest possible car? If that were the case, then it'd have 50HP, be built like an SUV, etc.
I think your thinking is flawed.
$0.02
Regarding your point about the safest car, has it occurred to you that the CGT is not a Honda or a Miata? Porsche developed this car to race but as an afterthought decided to sell it to the public. It deliberately catered to buyers who were after the ultimate performance machine. However, the fly in the ointment was to achieve that performance required professional experience. Yet they sold the car to many rank amatuer drivers and turned then loose on themselves and the public. Had they had one iota of concern for safety, they at least would have equipped the car with electronic aids which could be turned off if the macho buyers were so inclined to do.
Instead, Porsche sold most powerful car they ever built without any reasonably effective electronic aids. Porsche logic is as good as yours.
09-07-2005, 09:02 PM
#21
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Nick,
I realize that this may be somewhat off topic and a little personal. But when you were reading the road and track article you quoted earlier on this thread were you wearing your red long johns????? LOL
By the way as a CGT owner I think you raise some interesting points and I enjoy the electronic discussion with all the various viewpoints being expressed. I for one would miss your input. No problem with agreeing to disagree here.
I realize that this may be somewhat off topic and a little personal. But when you were reading the road and track article you quoted earlier on this thread were you wearing your red long johns????? LOL
By the way as a CGT owner I think you raise some interesting points and I enjoy the electronic discussion with all the various viewpoints being expressed. I for one would miss your input. No problem with agreeing to disagree here.
09-07-2005, 09:38 PM
#22
I agree with Nick -- the CGT seems to have SERIOUS design issues and it wasn’t exactly a marketing success. The car originated as a Le Mans racer then porked up, stripped of proper aerodynamics, and made into a Luxury/Exotic daily driver. My three surprises in a CGT on the track (with a professional driver) were explosive acceleration, excessive weight and under-rated tires. The major problem area for the CGT however seems to be a suspension or aerodynamic issue causing it to go unstable. IMO it is likely the combination of excess weight and high drag on corners, something we witnessed in a 180MPH run against my GT3, saw with Jay Leno recently, and what killed Ben. I don’t know if you guys remember Ben complaining about his tech inspection earlier this year.
"the car has some wander during high speed cornering". to which i said i'd had it at some fairly high speeds in corners without experiencing any wander. he then looked over at the guy who does detailing for the shop who was apparently a passenger in the joy ride and said "what did we hit in that one corner? about 150?" to which the detailer responded "yes, 150". he then went onto say proudly "it was 16 mph more in that corner than any other car i've taken through there."
Enzo is a fantastic example of proper high speed design -- electronic suspension (to lower ride height), active aerodyanmics (to compensate for a wing), and F1 transmission to prevent catastrophic high speed mis-shifts. If you own a CGT already, keep it under 150MPH and enjoy it in good health, if you don’t own it don’t buy one … it will tempt you to cross 150MPh each time.
"the car has some wander during high speed cornering". to which i said i'd had it at some fairly high speeds in corners without experiencing any wander. he then looked over at the guy who does detailing for the shop who was apparently a passenger in the joy ride and said "what did we hit in that one corner? about 150?" to which the detailer responded "yes, 150". he then went onto say proudly "it was 16 mph more in that corner than any other car i've taken through there."
Enzo is a fantastic example of proper high speed design -- electronic suspension (to lower ride height), active aerodyanmics (to compensate for a wing), and F1 transmission to prevent catastrophic high speed mis-shifts. If you own a CGT already, keep it under 150MPH and enjoy it in good health, if you don’t own it don’t buy one … it will tempt you to cross 150MPh each time.
09-07-2005, 09:40 PM
#23
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Nick-
I'm done with the safety discussion, I suppose my original hope was that you could be done too. I don't want to change your mind and know I couldn't anyway; I was just interested in hearing less of it regarding that particular issue.
But, as to your 430 comment and the wait...you're absolutely right. I have a stateside residence and tried this past June to buy one...couldn't. The 430 is a great car at a reasonable price and I really wanted one (still do). I've never owned a Ferrari and I was hoping that would be my first. Not knowing how long I'll live in Germany, I've thought of buying one over here. Great discounts are to be had over here and there is seven pages worth of used ones on our equivalent of 'Autotrader'. Great car, but a CGT it is not.
I'm done with the safety discussion, I suppose my original hope was that you could be done too. I don't want to change your mind and know I couldn't anyway; I was just interested in hearing less of it regarding that particular issue.
But, as to your 430 comment and the wait...you're absolutely right. I have a stateside residence and tried this past June to buy one...couldn't. The 430 is a great car at a reasonable price and I really wanted one (still do). I've never owned a Ferrari and I was hoping that would be my first. Not knowing how long I'll live in Germany, I've thought of buying one over here. Great discounts are to be had over here and there is seven pages worth of used ones on our equivalent of 'Autotrader'.
Great car, but a CGT it is not.
09-07-2005, 09:40 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Les Quam
Nick,
I realize that this may be somewhat off topic and a little personal. But when you were reading the road and track article you quoted earlier on this thread were you wearing your red long johns????? LOL
By the way as a CGT owner I think you raise some interesting points and I enjoy the electronic discussion with all the various viewpoints being expressed. I for one would miss your input. No problem with agreeing to disagree here.
I realize that this may be somewhat off topic and a little personal. But when you were reading the road and track article you quoted earlier on this thread were you wearing your red long johns????? LOL
By the way as a CGT owner I think you raise some interesting points and I enjoy the electronic discussion with all the various viewpoints being expressed. I for one would miss your input. No problem with agreeing to disagree here.
And yes my long johns are on.
09-07-2005, 09:48 PM
#25
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Shoot me, I've created exactly what I was trying to stop. 
I'm giving in, the CGT sucks and is really unsafe. What a disgrace to Porsche. They owe an apology to those who bought one and should've included a carbon fiber, leather interior, personalized coffin with all orders.
matt
I'm giving in, the CGT sucks and is really unsafe. What a disgrace to Porsche. They owe an apology to those who bought one and should've included a carbon fiber, leather interior, personalized coffin with all orders. matt
09-07-2005, 11:20 PM
#26
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Mikey: You state: "major problem area... suspension or aerodynamic issue causing it to go unstable..." regarding the CGT. I wonder if you could elaborate regarding your basis for this conclusion? Have you experienced high speed instability yourself in a CGT?
From what I know about Ben's accident, someone was innapropriately waved on the track right in front of him. One can only assume he followed the natural instinct of trying to avoid hitting the car, but inevitably put snap steering input to his car a very high speed. This would lead to disastrous results in any car. However, in a fully prepped race car the driver can often survive as a result of safety devices not present in a bone stock automobile. As for the Leno experience, do you know more than the average internet observer? I heard Leno let the car run up high and got caught in debris at 180 plus. Anyone knows that grip on a dirty part of the track is much reduced. Furthermore, is there any evidence that Jay Leno has the skill to be driving the car under the circumstances at Talladega?
It just seems to me that you are being quite definitive in your view, but it's not clear that you have a solid basis, if you are relying on these two incidents to reach you conclusion.
For what it's worth, I would not drive a CGT or any other car above 180 mph without a cage, proper restraints, etc. Also not on Michelin Pilot Sports - great for the street, but man, these are not track tires.
From what I know about Ben's accident, someone was innapropriately waved on the track right in front of him. One can only assume he followed the natural instinct of trying to avoid hitting the car, but inevitably put snap steering input to his car a very high speed. This would lead to disastrous results in any car. However, in a fully prepped race car the driver can often survive as a result of safety devices not present in a bone stock automobile. As for the Leno experience, do you know more than the average internet observer? I heard Leno let the car run up high and got caught in debris at 180 plus. Anyone knows that grip on a dirty part of the track is much reduced. Furthermore, is there any evidence that Jay Leno has the skill to be driving the car under the circumstances at Talladega?
It just seems to me that you are being quite definitive in your view, but it's not clear that you have a solid basis, if you are relying on these two incidents to reach you conclusion.
For what it's worth, I would not drive a CGT or any other car above 180 mph without a cage, proper restraints, etc. Also not on Michelin Pilot Sports - great for the street, but man, these are not track tires.
09-07-2005, 11:42 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by Nick
Your right I broke my word. I did not want my friend Dminn to feel neglected.
Do you work for Porsche? My advice is to recall all of them, raise the front end to make it driveable and install PSM. It would help the owners here in the US a great deal and stabilize the falling price.
BTW, if I wanted a CGT, I could have one in one hour at a SUBSTANTIAL DISCOUNT OFF MSRP. Try buying a 430 at MSRP in the US and you will not be able to do so for probably at least three years. Enough said.
I did not want my friend Dminn to feel neglected. Do you work for Porsche? My advice is to recall all of them, raise the front end to make it driveable and install PSM. It would help the owners here in the US a great deal and stabilize the falling price.
BTW, if I wanted a CGT, I could have one in one hour at a SUBSTANTIAL DISCOUNT OFF MSRP. Try buying a 430 at MSRP in the US and you will not be able to do so for probably at least three years. Enough said.
That having been said, I take strong exception to your attempt to speak on my behalf with respect to the "help" you suggest I want to make my car driveable and to "...stabilize the falling price." Two observations: 1) in any societal microcosm there is always present a group of idiots. In the auto enthusiast world, they are the ones who can afford to buy the "flavor of the day" at whatever price and have little appreciation or respect for what they have. They buy Ferraris as well as Porsches, and are equally reckless and dangerous, regardless of the marque they own/drive. 2) anyone who buys a car, ANY car, assumes the risk (in most cases, the certainty) that they own a DEPRECIATING asset. Some depreciate faster than others (ever own an Aston Martin?) while others do so more slowly (can you spell H O N D A?). Those that need instant gratification and pay more than MSRP do so at their own peril.
All that being said, I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and others where you've shared your OPINION, but PLEASE do not presume to speak for me, or any other CGT owner until you either own one, or have had enough seat time to give credence to your assumptions.
Cheers, dude
09-07-2005, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by labcars
. . . .All that being said, I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and others where you've shared your OPINION, but PLEASE do not presume to speak for me, or any other CGT owner until you either own one, or have had enough seat time to give credence to your assumptions.
Cheers, dude
Cheers, dude
). I'm pretty sure I can take Nick, as he'll be weighted down with all the pads from a hockey goalie's outfit (for safety) and waving one of those giant Ferrari flags, so you need to keep up with Les Q (a much more difficult task, as I think he's pretty cagey) 
09-08-2005, 12:10 AM
#29
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Originally Posted by 1958 Convertible D
Les B. - I will officially team with you in a cage match against Les Q. and Nick (Les Q. - this means you'll need to run out and get a matching pair of red longjohns ). I'm pretty sure I can take Nick, as he'll be weighted down with all the pads from a hockey goalie's outfit (for safety) and waving one of those giant Ferrari flags, so you need to keep up with Les Q (a much more difficult task, as I think he's pretty cagey)
). I'm pretty sure I can take Nick, as he'll be weighted down with all the pads from a hockey goalie's outfit (for safety) and waving one of those giant Ferrari flags, so you need to keep up with Les Q (a much more difficult task, as I think he's pretty cagey)
09-08-2005, 12:12 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by Steve N.
Mikey: You state: "major problem area... suspension or aerodynamic issue causing it to go unstable..." regarding the CGT. I wonder if you could elaborate regarding your basis for this conclusion? Have you experienced high speed instability yourself in a CGT?
From what I know about Ben's accident, someone was innapropriately waved on the track right in front of him. One can only assume he followed the natural instinct of trying to avoid hitting the car, but inevitably put snap steering input to his car a very high speed. This would lead to disastrous results in any car. However, in a fully prepped race car the driver can often survive as a result of safety devices not present in a bone stock automobile. As for the Leno experience, do you know more than the average internet observer? I heard Leno let the car run up high and got caught in debris at 180 plus. Anyone knows that grip on a dirty part of the track is much reduced. Furthermore, is there any evidence that Jay Leno has the skill to be driving the car under the circumstances at Talladega?
It just seems to me that you are being quite definitive in your view, but it's not clear that you have a solid basis, if you are relying on these two incidents to reach you conclusion.
For what it's worth, I would not drive a CGT or any other car above 180 mph without a cage, proper restraints, etc. Also not on Michelin Pilot Sports - great for the street, but man, these are not track tires.
From what I know about Ben's accident, someone was innapropriately waved on the track right in front of him. One can only assume he followed the natural instinct of trying to avoid hitting the car, but inevitably put snap steering input to his car a very high speed. This would lead to disastrous results in any car. However, in a fully prepped race car the driver can often survive as a result of safety devices not present in a bone stock automobile. As for the Leno experience, do you know more than the average internet observer? I heard Leno let the car run up high and got caught in debris at 180 plus. Anyone knows that grip on a dirty part of the track is much reduced. Furthermore, is there any evidence that Jay Leno has the skill to be driving the car under the circumstances at Talladega?
It just seems to me that you are being quite definitive in your view, but it's not clear that you have a solid basis, if you are relying on these two incidents to reach you conclusion.
For what it's worth, I would not drive a CGT or any other car above 180 mph without a cage, proper restraints, etc. Also not on Michelin Pilot Sports - great for the street, but man, these are not track tires.
Labcars, I have a plenty of seat time in the CGT. Yes it made my hair stand up during extreme acceleration and was wonderful in handling. However, both Ben and I recognized that at high speed there was a looseness to the car which honestly scared the crap out of me. Ben laughed it off. When I drove his Stradale and my 430 at around 170mph, I had no where near the same feeling. They felt planted and tracked wherever you pointed them.
BTW, I am not trying to speak for you. Like I posted before, your probably the only guy in the country that was able to flip the CGT and make some money. Enjoy your second CGT. I do know one thing for certain; unless you find some imbecile, you will not be able to flip it and make money on it again.
