MANUAL

I'd like to introduce myself as a new member, Ladies and Gents of Rennlist, and request permission to come aboard.

After reading posts on this fine website for many months, I've decided to finally register and become a member. I'm most interested in the CGT, GT2/GT3, and the Performance and Competition forums on Rennlist. Some of you I recognize from the m5board.com and rennteam.com boards. Without a doubt, Rennlist discussion is, at the least, equal in competence and civility to the other two boards and I always learn something new and interesting from you.

On a side note, I felt a deep connection to the way ben, lj conducted his life and hope we carry on where he left off with the same passion and with a new respect for high speed, track design, and head and neck restraints. I feel the same way about Jay Leno and after reading here today about his quintuple 182+ mph spin am glad we have not yet again lost an excellent, down-to-earth enthusiast to the clutches of the CGT. After listening to Nick's counterpoints which, I believe are applicable to ANY supercar, I have toyed with the idea of developing a disgust for the CGT but am not yet successful. Alexander Stemer's hypothesis, based on his race-car driving experience, of the CGT being equipped with inadequate tire compound, tire width, downforce and wrong steering ratio is most interesting. Hopefully, other equally experienced members will examine each of his points publicly for our benefit.

Does the CGT belong in "No man's land?" It appears to be neither a complete race-car nor a complete street car in terms of design and set-up and the resulting compromises, which is part and parcel of any marketed product, and false sense of security may be the greatest danger for its occupants. If I'm not alone, purists dream of driving race cars on the street. The CGT is a dream brought to reality with compromises and side effects we probably did not expect. Sifting through the many conflicting reports and opinions can lead to a headache. Being unsure what to believe I am not ready to dismiss the car to myself as a failure not worthy of my attention. However, had Jay died, I would be one step closer to dismissal. Does another high-speed death need to occur to speed up (no pun intended) my deliberation? I hope not.

Also, thoughts of a high-speed crash in any car have made me more cautious and/or perhaps I'm getting older and wiser. Please be careful all of you. Last night, while driving back at night from the Kruse Auction in Auburn, IN, I actually, for the first time in my life, had the sense to pull off the highway at 23:00 and nap for an hour to prevent myself from falling asleep at the wheel at 80 mph or running the risk of hitting a deer due to impaired reaction time.

Thank you very much to the fine administrators, moderators, and members for maintaining an excellent board for us, car enthusiasts. I hope I am welcome here.

Sincerely,

Peter

TommyO

Welcome aboard! - from anothoer long-time lurker.

Tom

porschemeister

Welcome manual to this forum. I just joined myself a few days ago. Your post caught my eye I since you are from Cincy where I used to live and "play" (cars that is). Now living in CA and getting ready to enjoy the Porsches again.

The CGT is more a race car than it is a street car...I could not see myself driving it on the track without proper protection (rollbar, seats, harness etc.). Yes as some point out it is easy to go 190 or so in a straight line, but believe me if something small goes wrong you are in trouble. I had a few tires blow out in front of me or things from other race cars come at me at this speed during my race days. You better be prepared and protected.

I love the CGT and will never forget the laps in one in Leipzig with Roland Kussmaul at the wheel. On a funny side note: I asked what smells so funny after I got in the car He replied: Oh that's the vommit from the previous passenger they just cleaned up....

pearldrum944

haha, hell of a car. I would LOVE a ride in a CGT.
Welcome, all of you.

MANUAL

Thank you, TommyO, porschemeister, and pearldrum944.

Steve N.

Manual: Welcome to the CGT forum. I might make a comment about your post. You state that the CGT may be neither fish nor fowl (ok, taking liberties with your words) - i.e. neither a complete race car nor a complete street car. Well, it certainly is not a race car in terms of set up. And as fabulous as the CGT is, I cringe a bit at the idea of people tooling around the track at the sort of speeds the car can develop without a full safety cage, proper restraints, fire protection, etc. Add the street rubber to the list too. And just so Nick doesn't jump in, I would say the say thing about the 430.

Now, as to the other half of the characterization, what the heck is a "complete street car"? I will tell you that the CGT is an absolute delight to drive. It is the closest thing to a streetable race car that I've ever been around. Hey - it's not a kid or grocery hauler, no chance of getting a sheet of plywood in this baby - it's a SPORTS CAR! And within that category, it's pretty amazing.

MANUAL

Thank you, Steve.


In my little book, lack of sufficient ground clearance is what keeps it from being a complete street car:

a) It makes mountains out of mole hills when exiting and entering even the tamest of driveway ramps. Street debris that cannot be completely avoided at the last second needs to be no higher than a tennis ball otherwise it tears the CF panels on the bottom. As a result, instead of the driver being in charge, the car dictates which route must be taken to minimize damage. Ridiculous!

b) Using a hydraulic lift to raise the car takes a minimum of 30-40 minutes. Changing a failed tire/wheel (spare carried by a support vehicle) on the roadside or even in a track pit garage seems out of the question unless tracks, nowadays, house lifts in their garages. Hence, long distance trips and tire punctures, on the street or track, seem out of the question. I would have preferred if Porsche had ridden the car of the detachable roof panels and trunk and ultilized the space to incorporate an electro-hydraulic, speed-sensitive adjustable suspension just to deal with the mundane problems of street driving. Or even an onboard pneumatic jack system like on the Cup cars.

I cannot digest the notion that a car as good as the CGT is reduced to tooling around the street and track at low speeds since anything else wouldn't be prudent. Planning to exercise the car on the track at 100+ mph? Not safe. Planning on visiting that new gas station? Too steep. Want to go visit someone 4 hours away for the weekend? Think again.

Why do we dream of driving half a million dollar race cars on the street? Good question cause despite all the disadvantages I stated above, I'm still dreaming. What the heck is wrong with me?

W8MM

Peter, I assume your wry sense of humor is at work here!

The tamest of driveway ramps are not the slightest problem for my CGT. Of course, I'm the one driving it, so I may have a different perspective from those merely watching a CGT drive past. I'm the one that actually drives my CGT into gas stations to fill up with fuel. I've yet to find one that presented any ingress/egress problem at all.

The only street debris that has ever been a problem for me looked like a UNIVERSAL JOINT FROM A TRUCK when I had to straddle it! Unless one is consigned to driving in areas where the streets double as junk yards, I don't think this is a fatal flaw of the car. Then again, I'm only talking about my CGT and not other CGTs that I haven't lived with. Maybe your dream CGT would be different? Besides, Porsche had a good, inexpensive fix for the scraped up CF bottom panels.

After reading so much hyperventilating about speed bumps on the boards (before I actually took delivery), I was scared poop-less of speed bumps. I would start down a residential street in my CGT, see a speed bump (traffic calmer), make a u-turn, and go by another route. Finally, I decided to see just how bad the speed bumps were. I had an idea in the back of my mind to pursue legal remedies against the city of Cincinnati. I found a lightly traveled side street with the dreaded speed bump and slowly crept over it at less than 1 mph. What horror did I find? Absolutely none!

As I have found out, I can navigate any of Cincinnati's residential speed-calming road lumps without the slightest concern, as long as I don't exceed the speed limit while in the act. (Don't ask me any details.) Of course, your dream CGT may be different.


I don't consider the tire changing issue to be a big deal at all. I've always thought that I would deal with the one or two flat tires per decade that I get by calling Porsche Roadside Assistance. I've had to call them already for a flat in my former 996TT coupe. I tried to be a mechanical hero and put the space-saver spare on, but the dealer folks had forgotten to put back the lug-bolt security-key socket adapter after a previous wheel balance! So, I couldn't get the wheel off.

After experiencing that episode, I realized that calling for back-up wasn't a bad thing. I don't give the lack of a spare the slightest thought, now. I'd drive the CGT to Chicago from Cincinnati with my only concern being how my rear-end would feel after five hours on the interstate (merely because I haven't done it, yet).


The safety of the CGT is directly dependent on the driver, not the car. If the driver is unsafe at any speed, the car merely follows the driver's lead. I can't imagine how a CGT is unsafe at speeds routinely considered to be great fun in a 911. How come my CGT isn't reduced to "tooling around" at low speeds?


What the heck is wrong with you? That's easy. You listen to Nick too much

Stop that and you'll have pleasant dreams

1958 Convertible D

Mike -

Good to hear you're enjoying your car! I've got about 2,400 miles on mine, and loving it. My two track outings (one high speed, and the other for as a chauffeur for charity during parade laps) were a ton of fun. Like you, I spent countless hours over the issue of the CGT ride height, calculating the slope of a new driveway to the garage, etc. After four months of ownership, I've scrapped the black plastic strip below the nose only twice, and both times I was inching forward, testing to see if I could better understand the limit. I haven't had any problems with street driving. I've also done several three hour drives in the car, and fortunately my back hasn't been an problem. My opinion is that your need for gas will force you to stop more frequently than your need for seat relief!!!

Manual, I suggest you stop the next CGT you see driving around Cincinnati and use your negotiating skills to obtain a ride. I've heard that people who own Signal Yellow ones are pretty nice guys. By the way, it's interesting that on a thread devoted to CGT's, you hear very few negative comments from owners, and continuous blabber (excuses?) from others about why they don't own one. It's a great performance car, a blast to drive, and yes, it's expensive. If you have the means, you should experience it for yourself. Or you can just read what everyone else thinks about it.

Les Quam

My neighborhood has huge speedbumps and I have not had a problem although I do need to creep over them. I have scraped the black plastic piece once when I wasn't paying attention on my driveway. The CGT is as streetable as my GT 2 IMHO. If those are the only compromises I will gladly suffer through them since the CGT is the finest car I have ever driven or owned nothing else even comes close.

I am just glad I don't own a yellow one. LOL

DMin

Amen, Les.

The Carrera GT is actually more comfortable on the road than my GT3 was. The only reason I don't drive mine around more is the fact that I don't feel entirely comfortable parking it at the grocery store when I run in to buy something.

Steve N.

Manual: As others have said, the ground clearance issue does not render the car impractical for the street. Not much different than my GT2 (I managed to knock the brake cooling ductwork off the GT2). I have had a couple of minor scrapes with the CGT, like most owners, but nothing significant.

So you like the pneumatic jack set up of the cup cars? Pretty cool. I guess that means someone will follow you in a pick-up truck carrying a nitrogen bottle?

I agree with Les and Dmin - I owned both the GT2 and the GT3 - the CGT is a more comfortable car for an extended drive.

It's funny - owners have minor gripes - such as, the fact that the mirrors encumber visibility - that's my primary complaint. But as 1958 Convertible D (jeez man, do you have a name?) said, CGT owners love the car! Others - well, you read all kinds of stuff. Given that much of the opinion is offered completely sans seat time, it really is blather. All I would say is drive the car if you can create the opportunity - you will not regret it.

So owners, for now it seems that we are alinged against the world. And, we are a distinct minority!

yimn

This is my first post. Speaking of practicality, let me just say I drove my CGT from Hong Kong to Hainan Island (somewhere in the southern part of China about 800km away) few months ago without one incidence of scraping the car's bottom. Considering China is a developing country, it says a lot of the drivablity of the CGT. I have put 5000km on my car since I took delivery 6 months ago and I have found none of the problems mentioned here except in stop-and-go traffic, I would prefer a F1 gearbox as the CGT bos does require more attention when taking off.

W8MM

Steve,

I agree with your observation and have a theory about that.

It seems that all the pooh-poohing comes from two basic groups of non-owners:

1) Porsche guys who consider the car too little bang for the buck, and a sign of Porsche leaving them behind.

They go through all sorts of rationalizations (technical, aesthetic, emotional) about how the CGT doesn't provide a familiar level of superiority compared with its sticker price. The dollars to fun ratio involved is very uncomfortable territory for them. It's just not worth it to them, and some of them want other people to know.

Many Porsche purists (at least on discussion boards) are down-to-earth, technically oriented sorts of people who appreciate fine engineering and that special Porsche feel, whether it comes from a Boxster or a GT2. The MSRP spread between entry-level and high-end Porsches of the recent past is little more than 3:1, so that neuro-surgeons, entrepreneurs, school teachers and accountants can all fit into the product range quite comfortably with little stigma of extravagance.

The Carrera GT blows this happy circumstance out of the water. Since all bleeding-edge technology is an exercise in diminishing returns, going faster and taking corners better costs a whole bunch more money per increment. The CGT is the perfect embodiment of that old pit-side joke, "Q: How much does racing cost? A: How fast do you want to go?"

The CGT costs nearly 10:1 more than the Porsche entry-level offering. This simple fact may cause some who dream of owning the "Top Porsche" to become resentful. They may feel that Porsche has abandoned them by usurping an attainable dream with a goal that is completely beyond their expectation. The "Best Porsche" has become a flagrant extravagance to them, and they feel "used" by Porsche for bursting their dream. Their dream is no longer "worth it".

How else does one easily explain the repetitious condemnation (in my view, unwarranted) of Porsche's "greed" that seems to slip into many threads about the CGT? And, this is from ostensible Porsche fans!


2) Exotic-car/race-car guys who are offended by a Porsche street car with enormous capability.

Every track-car guy knows how much faster on a track his purpose-built ride is compared to his street car. The two cars are from different planets in cornering, braking, body roll, creature comforts, ingress/egress, and on and on. This is how the world has been for ages and ages. It's the way it's supposed to be. If one wants to go fast at the track, only a genuine track car can take you there. Now, the CGT threatens to disrupt that commonly held dichotomy with a car that seems to do both things tolerably well. They're sure that "There must be something wrong!", and will try mightily to find it.

The exotic car crowd isn't used to regarding Porsche as an exotic car. There are just too many Porsches around for them to be truly exotic. Heck, most of the ones seen on the street cost less than $100,000. How could a "cheap" brand like Porsche make anything like an exotic car? Some buyers of exotic cars buy them strictly because there are very few others around and, that when people see a "true" exotic, the owner is guaranteed to be held high, apart from the teeming throng. When the exclusive car's performance (street, track, or social) seems to be matched or exceeded by a mere Porsche, the exotic car world seems upside down. Therefore, a Carrera GT could not possibly be worthy of any adulation, it's too mass-market. And, those that sing the praises of the CGT must be deluded or Porsche sycophants.


I think it's really simple: Porsche has done something that they weren't supposed to do.

They made the Carrera GT too wonderful for some people to accept.

CO997

I agree with W8MM and others that are defending the CGT. From all the comments I've read on this forum and others, most of the complaints come from people that do not own the car. Maybe they have had some ride alongs or know someone that has one but in my opinion that does not provide enough information for you to make a "complete" judgement on a car. Especially one of this caliber. Jealousy is the most common thought that comes to mind when I read all the negative comments. I'm not saying it is a perfect car or that it is the best car ever made but I can appreciate it for what it is. Just as I appreciate Lamborghini, Ferrari, or Pagani, among many others. All of our "super" cars are incredible feats of engineering and instead of looking for any fault you can find just enjoy the car and appreciate it for what it is and does.
Unless something major changes I will never be lucky enough to own a car that costs anywhere near as much as the CGT does. That being said, I still find it to be an amazing machine. I have seen several, sat in them, and heard them. Man is that engine one of the most amazing sounds I have ever heard. Unfortunately I've not been lucky enough to ride in one, but I'm still hopin!! However I'm still thrilled every day I get in my 997 and just as thrilled when I see another "super" car heading down the road.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but just because you might think your car is better or safe then someone elses doesn't mean you have to degrade it every chance you get.
Can't we all just get along and enjoy what we have and strive towards what we don't have?
Just my .02 cents....