Maybe Nick was right ????????
08-18-2005, 02:55 PM
#31
Originally Posted by Nick
BINGO!
I driven and ridden the CGT several times and I know what it is and isn't. Ownership is not necessary to evaluate the car. Also, ownership tends to affect objective judgment.
I driven and ridden the CGT several times and I know what it is and isn't. Ownership is not necessary to evaluate the car. Also, ownership tends to affect objective judgment.
I consider myself a realist. I know what I paid for the car, I know probably how much I will lose, and I'm aware of the short-comings of the car. I still like it, and I will continue to enjoy it.
I stand by (in my long red johns) my statement that the CGT should have been equipped with performance safety features with F1 tranny and the failure to do so makes the car dangerous at high speed rendering it almost useless for public roads.
Attack me personally all you want (not you Les). I am secure in the knowledge that facts concerning this car have supported my statements. I realize it is a tough pill to swallow for owners when they paid close to $500,000 for the car but understanding what you own and its limitations can save your life one day. And for that I am willing to take the abuse. 
08-18-2005, 03:00 PM
#32
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For those who track their cars, it should be obvious that the majority of people do not know how to drive. The majority of drivers are "operators" not drivers and have no clue about weight transfer and vehicle dynamics - not to mention vision. Turning that sort of person loose in a CGT, GT3, F360/430 996TT is an invitation to an accident if they attempt to incorrectly exploit the performance of a supercar. I am comfortable driving a 500 HP GT2 on and off the track, as are many others on this list. I would love to try a CGT on a track too and I am confident I will have the same accident record (none) than I have now.
On the other hand, to say that "the average driver is at risk behind the wheel of a supercar" is probably true if only because the average driver can't drive! Those on this list who own and enjoy their supercars know how to drive. They are not the average, they are far above the average. End of rant.
On the other hand, to say that "the average driver is at risk behind the wheel of a supercar" is probably true if only because the average driver can't drive! Those on this list who own and enjoy their supercars know how to drive. They are not the average, they are far above the average. End of rant.
08-18-2005, 05:12 PM
#33
Race Director
Originally Posted by Ray G
Agree that (any) car should be respected. Only the most immature of drivers would try driving the CGT like that. That applies to any other powerful car. I don't think that should reflect badly on the car itself. I also don't think anybody posting here would even consider driving their cars like that on the street. "Most US drivers" won't be driving these cars, so that danger is not imminent.
With respect to the car yes it is safe and road speeds. At normal road speeds it is probably safer the most any car, but given its extreme performance simply exceed those limit comes with more serious consequences and a typical road car.
It is similar to the German Autobahn.
Folks drive very fast there and roads and skill levels are such that accidents are less common than on US roads. However the accidents that do happen tend to be very bad due to the high speeds.
I firmly believe a properly driven CGT is fine for street use and perfectly safe. However trying to extract anthing close to the limit in the car comes with much risk and is probaly best reserved for those with the skills to do so. It is probably NOT the car to use to learn how to drive fast.
08-18-2005, 06:27 PM
#34
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If this is an accurate summary of your opinion, then I understand. I disagree, but I can respect your opinion. I think nanny-aids and F1 shifting remove the fun.
Frankly, you have brought some of those comments on yourself, by repeatedly making some absurd and exaggerated statements about the car.[/QUOTE]
Most of my comments are considered absurd because they are negative about some aspects of the CGT. I am on record as stated it is one of the finest sport cars ever built but I have serious issues whether the car should be sold without safety performance features.
Recently, in an article in the Robb report comparing the CGT to the Noble 400, the professional driver stated it is easy to loose the rear end of the CGT and once lost it cannot be controlled. This was evident when the "Stig" tried to do a fast lap for Top Gear Magazine. On the other hand, the Noble was much more stable in turns and cornering.
"Good drivers" in this car can just as easily loose the rear end as "average drivers". The faster you go, the easier it is to loose it. It is VERY EASY to go fast in the CGT. People buy a CGT to go fast.
Frankly, you have brought some of those comments on yourself, by repeatedly making some absurd and exaggerated statements about the car.[/QUOTE]
Most of my comments are considered absurd because they are negative about some aspects of the CGT. I am on record as stated it is one of the finest sport cars ever built but I have serious issues whether the car should be sold without safety performance features.
Recently, in an article in the Robb report comparing the CGT to the Noble 400, the professional driver stated it is easy to loose the rear end of the CGT and once lost it cannot be controlled. This was evident when the "Stig" tried to do a fast lap for Top Gear Magazine. On the other hand, the Noble was much more stable in turns and cornering.
"Good drivers" in this car can just as easily loose the rear end as "average drivers". The faster you go, the easier it is to loose it. It is VERY EASY to go fast in the CGT. People buy a CGT to go fast.
08-18-2005, 06:49 PM
#35
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The ease of handling is what makes it very dangerous, it can inflate the ego and promote overconfidence; and that's where the "danger' zone begins, it takes a "healthy sense of self" to not be lulled into a disasterous situation.
For those of you who have never been in the car you ought to know that it thoroughly distorts the "sense of speed" (IMO) and 100MPH feels relatively slow versus any other car I've experienced.
For those of you who have never been in the car you ought to know that it thoroughly distorts the "sense of speed" (IMO) and 100MPH feels relatively slow versus any other car I've experienced.
08-18-2005, 07:36 PM
#36
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Colm,
Very well put. I have found the biggest concern for me on public roads is the speed differential when you realize that during a casual relaxed conversation with your passenger you look up and see traffic on top of you then look at your speedometer and realize your doing 120 MPH. It sounds like I am being careless but the car just handles so perfectly that 100 MPH seems like 55 MPH and I know that really sounds ridiculous so lets get back to Nick's red longjohns and get this thread back on track. LOL
Seriously, the most frequent comment I get from people I take for a ride is that it doesn't feel that fast? I then tell them to look at the speedo and they are amazed at the MPH. Most people expect a brutal overwhelming sense of speed as the sensation one might feel in the CGT but that just is not the case. Most of my guests in order to make them happy want me to turn the T/C off and mash the throttle but I have a 550 HP HEMI challenger with lousy brakes for that.
Very well put. I have found the biggest concern for me on public roads is the speed differential when you realize that during a casual relaxed conversation with your passenger you look up and see traffic on top of you then look at your speedometer and realize your doing 120 MPH. It sounds like I am being careless but the car just handles so perfectly that 100 MPH seems like 55 MPH and I know that really sounds ridiculous so lets get back to Nick's red longjohns and get this thread back on track. LOL
Seriously, the most frequent comment I get from people I take for a ride is that it doesn't feel that fast? I then tell them to look at the speedo and they are amazed at the MPH. Most people expect a brutal overwhelming sense of speed as the sensation one might feel in the CGT but that just is not the case. Most of my guests in order to make them happy want me to turn the T/C off and mash the throttle but I have a 550 HP HEMI challenger with lousy brakes for that.
08-18-2005, 08:07 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
My argument to my wife (when we're out in my car) is that performance cars are much safer on the road than "normal" cars.
Less time is spent on the oncoming lane when overtaking, you're much less likely to hit something should you need to brake hard owing to improved brakes ('71 Cuda excepted) and any avoiding action can be implemented because generally performance cars are lighter and built to change direction ('71 Cuda excepted!).
In addition, people don't generally get in cars like these and switch off. We drive them to drive them, not to daydream.
So following my logic, cars like the CGT and Enzo's are much safer than other cars!
F1 paddle shift makes the Enzo safer? Give me a break!
If Nick can back his thoughts up with facts let's see the statistics that show there are more accidents per driven mile in a CGT than a Honda Civic. Tit.
Less time is spent on the oncoming lane when overtaking, you're much less likely to hit something should you need to brake hard owing to improved brakes ('71 Cuda excepted) and any avoiding action can be implemented because generally performance cars are lighter and built to change direction ('71 Cuda excepted!).
In addition, people don't generally get in cars like these and switch off. We drive them to drive them, not to daydream.
So following my logic, cars like the CGT and Enzo's are much safer than other cars!
F1 paddle shift makes the Enzo safer? Give me a break!
If Nick can back his thoughts up with facts let's see the statistics that show there are more accidents per driven mile in a CGT than a Honda Civic. Tit.
08-19-2005, 12:49 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
As one who's been to the track a few times with Ray -- when he says enjoyment, that means driving the CGT as Walter Rohrl and Ferry Porsche would have us drive our cars. At speed.
- curt
I consider myself a realist. I know what I paid for the car, I know probably how much I will lose, and I'm aware of the short-comings of the car. I still like it, and I will continue to enjoy it.
- curt
Originally Posted by Ray G
I consider myself a realist. I know what I paid for the car, I know probably how much I will lose, and I'm aware of the short-comings of the car. I still like it, and I will continue to enjoy it.
08-19-2005, 01:01 AM
#39
Originally Posted by Colm
The ease of handling is what makes it very dangerous, it can inflate the ego and promote overconfidence; and that's where the "danger' zone begins, it takes a "healthy sense of self" to not be lulled into a disasterous situation..
The limits of the CGT are so high, that the level of safety at normal road speeds (and say 50% over) is still very high - even higher than a Honda. I'm not lulled into a false sense of security - it is a very real sense of security because the limiits of the car are amazingly high.
Now, if you are used to the CGT's limits, and jump into a lesser car, then you have to re-adjust.
If you want to complain about a dangerous car - try a GT3. That thing is like riding a twitchy pogo stick after driving the CGT.
08-19-2005, 01:08 AM
#41
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Nick
If you want to convince anyone on this forum that what you are saying is correct, you need to present cogent consistent arguments. On the one hand you argue that since the CGT does not have a paddle shifter it is a "widowmaker". Then you turn around and try to argue that it's really the at-the-limits behavior of the car that is the problem.
While I won't argue with you about the at-the-limits performance of the CGT as I have not driven it at the limit myself (although you haven't either and seem to have no problems making blanket statements), I will argue that your premise that an F1 paddle-type shifter makes a car safer is completely inane. Are you saying that most accidents in the CGT are caused by the driver having only one hand on the steering wheel? I don't know how you drive on the track, but I try to avoid shifting gears mid-corner, that way I get to keep both hands on the wheel.
Wasn't the paddle shifter developed in F1 in order to speed up gear selection and to eliminate possible driver error in gear selection? It was developed as a performance issue, not as a safety device.
D. Min
If you want to convince anyone on this forum that what you are saying is correct, you need to present cogent consistent arguments. On the one hand you argue that since the CGT does not have a paddle shifter it is a "widowmaker". Then you turn around and try to argue that it's really the at-the-limits behavior of the car that is the problem.
While I won't argue with you about the at-the-limits performance of the CGT as I have not driven it at the limit myself (although you haven't either and seem to have no problems making blanket statements), I will argue that your premise that an F1 paddle-type shifter makes a car safer is completely inane. Are you saying that most accidents in the CGT are caused by the driver having only one hand on the steering wheel? I don't know how you drive on the track, but I try to avoid shifting gears mid-corner, that way I get to keep both hands on the wheel.
Wasn't the paddle shifter developed in F1 in order to speed up gear selection and to eliminate possible driver error in gear selection? It was developed as a performance issue, not as a safety device.
D. Min
08-19-2005, 01:20 AM
#42
Originally Posted by M758
Well sadly just because you have he means to aquire a CGT does not mean you have your head on straight. I would agree that the folks here have proper respect the car, but with 1200 or so cars being sold a few will end up in the hands of yahoo who will do who knows what with them.
With respect to the car yes it is safe and road speeds. At normal road speeds it is probably safer the most any car, but given its extreme performance simply exceed those limit comes with more serious consequences and a typical road car.
It is similar to the German Autobahn.
Folks drive very fast there and roads and skill levels are such that accidents are less common than on US roads. However the accidents that do happen tend to be very bad due to the high speeds.
I firmly believe a properly driven CGT is fine for street use and perfectly safe. However trying to extract anthing close to the limit in the car comes with much risk and is probaly best reserved for those with the skills to do so. It is probably NOT the car to use to learn how to drive fast.
With respect to the car yes it is safe and road speeds. At normal road speeds it is probably safer the most any car, but given its extreme performance simply exceed those limit comes with more serious consequences and a typical road car.
It is similar to the German Autobahn.
Folks drive very fast there and roads and skill levels are such that accidents are less common than on US roads. However the accidents that do happen tend to be very bad due to the high speeds.
I firmly believe a properly driven CGT is fine for street use and perfectly safe. However trying to extract anthing close to the limit in the car comes with much risk and is probaly best reserved for those with the skills to do so. It is probably NOT the car to use to learn how to drive fast.
The CGT IS unsafe - for the average, not-so-good driver. I'm guessing that most people who get them, will be fine. There are probably a few pro ballers and such that don't have a clue, and they will probably have troubles.
08-19-2005, 01:29 AM
#43
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Originally Posted by Ray G
Isn't ease of handling what you actually want in a safe car?
The limits of the CGT are so high, that the level of safety at normal road speeds (and say 50% over) is still very high - even higher than a Honda. I'm not lulled into a false sense of security - it is a very real sense of security because the limiits of the car are amazingly high.
Now, if you are used to the CGT's limits, and jump into a lesser car, then you have to re-adjust.
If you want to complain about a dangerous car - try a GT3. That thing is like riding a twitchy pogo stick after driving the CGT.
The limits of the CGT are so high, that the level of safety at normal road speeds (and say 50% over) is still very high - even higher than a Honda. I'm not lulled into a false sense of security - it is a very real sense of security because the limiits of the car are amazingly high.
Now, if you are used to the CGT's limits, and jump into a lesser car, then you have to re-adjust.
If you want to complain about a dangerous car - try a GT3. That thing is like riding a twitchy pogo stick after driving the CGT.
As long as you have a "healthy sense of self" you'll be OK. I'm sure you'll posted as to your progress as you "learn" the car.
I'm rooting for you because then there's hope for the rest of us mere mortals.
I own a GT2 and 3, they are nowhere near as "seductive" (read dangerous) as a CGT.
You might be underscoring what I'm driving at (no pun intended): It takes more skill to control a twitchy car and thererfore it has a self limiting factor, the ease of the CGT may induce a false sense of confidence (and skill) which can have unintended consequences at higher speeds because the "honed" survival skills were never learned or fully understood.
08-19-2005, 01:35 AM
#44
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Ray G
Sorry about the twitchy GT3 comment above, Curt. You make driving the GT3 look smooth as a baby's behind
I'm reminded of a quote by Mark Twain:
The difference between the almost right word & the right word is really a large matter--it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning.
- Letter to George Bainton, 10/15/1888
The GT3 the lightning bug, the CGT is lightning.- Letter to George Bainton, 10/15/1888
- curt
08-19-2005, 01:56 AM
#45
Originally Posted by Colm
Ray G
As long as you have a "healthy sense of self" you'll be OK. I'm sure you'll posted as to your progress as you "learn" the car.
I'm rooting for you because then there's hope for the rest of us mere mortals.
I own a GT2 and 3, they are nowhere near as "seductive" (read dangerous) as a CGT.
You might be underscoring what I'm driving at (no pun intended): It takes more skill to control a twitchy car and thererfore it has a self limiting factor, the ease of the CGT may induce a false sense of confidence (and skill) which can have unintended consequences at higher speeds because the "honed" survival skills were never learned or fully understood.
As long as you have a "healthy sense of self" you'll be OK. I'm sure you'll posted as to your progress as you "learn" the car.
I'm rooting for you because then there's hope for the rest of us mere mortals.
I own a GT2 and 3, they are nowhere near as "seductive" (read dangerous) as a CGT.
You might be underscoring what I'm driving at (no pun intended): It takes more skill to control a twitchy car and thererfore it has a self limiting factor, the ease of the CGT may induce a false sense of confidence (and skill) which can have unintended consequences at higher speeds because the "honed" survival skills were never learned or fully understood.
You certainly don't want to begin your quest of learning performance driving with the CGT. Learn car control in other cars first.