cosmos

I have a few things to add, some of which have been mentioned already.

I do not own a CGT, but have been around enough of them to understand the car more then the average guy. I do own a GT3. I bought the GT3 because of the reason mentioned above. It has NO electronic aids at all. I looked at a variety of cars and came back to the same conclusion, manufactures today are building cars to suit the lawyers, not the drivers. They want to make sure that they are protected by law suits. The CGT NEEDS a T/C system. I have seen Ben, with the T/C on spin the wheels from a stop sign. The T/C system in the CGT is probably the least invasive T/C system I have seen. The fact remains that the car has a lot of power and may be caught in the rain. Any car that in 3rd gear that has the ability to spin the wheels while moving needs a T/C system. What I like about the CGT's T/C system is that it can be turned completely off.

Other manufactures like BMW, Merc and even Porsche do not allow the driver to turn off all the systems completely.

I love my GT3. in fact I am looking for a new car and to be honest, I cant find one that does what the GT3 does and also one that does not have a Sequential tranny, T/C, PSM, DSC, EDC, EBC, etc... I believe that the last set of GT cars built by Porsche are the last great cars not to have intrusive driver aids.

The new M5 is a great car, actually it is a fantastic car. It is true that it is not a track car like the CGT/GT2/GT3 is, but nonetheless, it is awesome. The reason for me not getting this car is that I have found out that if the car detects over heating of the brake pads, it will retard the timing and dial the car back a bit. No thank you, that is not for me.

Nick

I have ridden with Hurley Haywood as he race Dave Murrey in a 996 on Road Atlanta. Yes it is satisfying to see someone do that as well as they both do (I also rode with Dave Murrey). They are pro's and damn good at it.

Try driving a F1 tranny on a track or public road and you will immediately recognize you are a BETTER AND FASTER driver than if you were using a manual transmission. Hurley Haywood told me that even the Tiptronic was better for track work than the manual(his preferred car would be a TT with Tiptronic). Later in an article, Dave Murrey said the same. Anyway you cut it, manual is an anachronism. Porsche recognized that when they tried to equip the CGT with their version of a F1 tranny. But immediate profits won the day and THEY went with a dated manual transmission.

Sauron,I suppose there are some owners who would be honest and tell you they are unhappy with the car but they would be the exception. We do know that many owners after taking delivery of the CGT sold the car within a short period of time even though taking a loss. ThAT surely speaks volumes about how they felt about the car.

themarsman

Nick I think this is what you need:
http://www.force-dynamics.com/

Just think you could race all day and you wouldn't have to worry about taking chances. I'll bet they can come up with a program that wouldn't let you crash, it could just drive for you.

Oh and by the way I am plenty sick of you calling the CGT owners on this board liars. If there were fundamental flaws or problems with the CGT I would be the first to say something. You have stated numerous times that the owners here wouldn't tell the truth about our cars because we have purchased a CGT. The only thing I can figure out is you must be the one who would do something like that and feel that others don't have a spine. I bought a Ferrari Testarossa about 10 years ago and have regretted it ever since. I don't believe a bigger piece of crap has ever been built. I still own the car because I would feel bad selling it to someone.

Good Luck with your Ferrari that makes you a "perfect" driver.

Nick

I did not mean to indicate in any way CGT owners are liars. My point was the if someone is paying $500,000 for a car there is a bias to liking it. Very few will acknowledge it was not worth the money they paid for it. If you or any other owner read it to mean you are liars then you have my apology.

Regarding the perfect driver comment (which you took out of context), it sticks in your craw because you will NEVER see the day you become one driving a CGT. All you can hope for is to hang on and pray you do not loose it. Boy, that must be a lot of fun.

Steve N.

Well, it seems as long as Nick would rather post on this board than go drive his ferrari then just about every thread will deteriorate to the same themes. The fact is we could pretty much recite them from rote by now.

I for one did not have a deposit on a CGT. In fact, I had given very little thought to owning one. A more or less random visit to my dealer resulted in a test drive, and one thing lead to another. No one had a gun at my head, and I was not over a barrel, so to speak. As such, it is annoying to keep reading that because I own this car my opinions are therefore biased.

themarsman

Your post that I was referencing above about being a perfect driver:

Ouch! I expected some reaction from owners but I sense I have touched a very raw nerve.

Gentlemen, there is a reason why this car does not get financial respect though on a performance level it almost has no peer. Most people (present company excepted) that can a afford a CGT want a super sport car which make them better drivers and enhance the performance enjoyment. The CGT does neither.

Like the GT2 or Gt3, both great performing cars but the enjoyment(if you can call it that) is all on the driver. Any error in judgment or false move, you are cooked. With the CGT, you mulitply that margin by a factor of two-three and you have some idea what you are dealing with. Now it is possible all of you who own and post here have the mindset and skills to find that CGT adds to your driving enjoyment and makes you a better driver.

Sadly, I did not find that to be the case. Nor did the auto critic's. They claimed it was a great performance car but complained about the factors I cited. Keep in mind, W. Rohrl crashed two and two auto reporters crushed a couple which led Porsche to offer test drives only on an abandoned airfield.

My 430 is as near as perfect car you can get. It makes me almost a perfect driver and provides me with considerable enjoyment without fear of getting myself killed. Yes, it loves me back in a big way.


I am not a great driver, but I do consider myself a good driver. Since you are an almost perfect driver in the 430 you might not understand just being good. I would wager that I would be able to beat you and your 430 around any road course in the world in my CGT. To do this I would probably have to push my car to 8/10th's if you are a great driver, but reading your many posts I don't think I would have to go more than 5/10th's.

The Carrera GT is pretty easy to drive at 8/10th's , things do happen quite quickly though. I am not able to drive the CGT at 100% and I belive there aren't very many people who own any supercar that are able to squeeze all that is available.

If you enjoy your 430 so much why don't you go drive it and not question others who love drivng their cars.

You might want to rethink that simulator it would really make you a perfect driver.

Ray G

I would not have bought my CGT if it didn't have the 6-speed manual - it's part of what makes the car. For those with the talent, heel-n-toeing is a joy in this car. I also have a F430 6-speed on order, because I can't stand the stupid F1 shifter I had on my Stradale. And btw, that POS shifting system is NOTHING like a formula one transmission; it is a marketing smoke screen to make you feel like your in the same class as M Shumacher. Ferrari is finding out that more customers want the 6-speed than they thought. I would not be surprised if their "F1" shifter turns out to be a fad that dies out over the next decade.

I'll admit, on a track, the F1 in my stradale made it easier, but guess what - it wasn't as fun. And I'm not there for any reason but to have fun. And using the F1 off the track... yuck.

Look, if you like your car to control everything, fine. That is you. Please STOP dissing the CGT (or any other P car) because some people like their cars a little more raw.

1AS

Question for owners: Gentlemen,
In what gears can you break rear traction simply by flooring the throttle (assume dry pavement and not exiting a corner)? First gear is a given, second a presumption. Will it break traction on a 2-3 upshift? Will it break traction by nailing the gas in 3rd gear? (by the way, Can Am cars can but generally don't spin the tires between 2nd and 3rd but don't in my experience break traction flooring the gas in third at any engine speed)
The reason for the question is that if traction is marginal in the lower gears, any irregularity in pavement, any dirt on the road, or even a little gravel an pitch you sideways when you think you are driving at 6/10ths. I will happily demonstrate in my 53 Kurtis (570 dyno hp) on 7" Hoosiers. Ergo, never turn off traction control. (Schumi's advice on the Enzo as well). AS

Pierre

I think Nick has a point here. In a few years from now, we probably won't have the choice anymore. It'll be Tiptronic, PDK, F1, auto, whatever version and whatever it'll be called. The manual will disappear, except maybe for a few exotic brands (Porsche isn't) that'll offer a manual gearbox for a little longer.

And yep, Porsche initially wanted to install sort of a F1 tranny in the CGT. The official reason for going back to manual is that they didn't have anything good enough for the CGT. Well... I guess there were some financial reasons behind that too. Such a system would have cost more to develop and produce, which would have pushed either the car's price up or the margin down. Both not good for Porsche. Besides, the development of the CGT had been long enough, so they had to finally bring the car to the market, otherwise it might have been too late. (Maybe it already was.)

Frankly, I strongly doubt that Porsche installed a manual tranny in the CGT to please its hardcore-driver customers. Porsche wanted (still wants) to sell the CGT and to make money out of it. Their goal wasn't to please the manual-afficionados. And a F1-tranny would surely have helped to sell the car to their primary target audience (wealthy people, not hardcare-drivers).

I'm starting to drift away, but I also think that many Porsche hardcore fans don't like the F1-style tranny because... Porsche doesn't have it! To me, Tiptronic is a joke too (those stupidly positioned buttons on the wheel!). But when Porsche will introduce something like a PDK-tranny, my bet is that most of us will change our opinion and jump on it. Future will tell...



--Pierre

Nick

You are a reasonably intelligent person and clearly financially successful. However your defense of the CGT has become irrational. You may be willing to risk your life to prove an irrelevant point but I am not willing to risk YOUR life. Though my 430 technology will partner with me and provide a fast save ride, I cannot trust a driver at speed in a CGT.

And please do not take this personally.I would not put my car on the same track with a CGT unless it was driven by a professional. I value my life and car.

Ray G

I hope you are wrong. Customer demand will determine it. I really doubt the manual tranny will go away soon. The world is full of enthusiasts who choose sports cars not because they are easy to drive, but because they are fun. Can you image a Miata with a paddle shifter? I cringe!

DMin

Reading Nick and the rest of us go back and forth about the merits of the C-GT and the various Ferrari's is almost as tedious as hearing audiophiles argue about the merits of analog records vs. digital CD/SACD's.

Look, Nick, we understand that you don't like the C-GT. I think everyone on this messageboard understands this. If we ask the mods to stickie a thread entitled "Nick thinks the Carrera GT is a deathtrap" to this forum, will you agree to just shut up about it?

fayence

In an earlier post in this thread, someone mentioned the hot laps at Leipzig with traction control off. I just returned from that trip, and my take away on that was that the CGT was incredibly stable with TC on, and even more incredible that he could drive it just as hard with it off.

My take-away on that was that with enough skill, you can drive that car very well, with our without TC, but you need to really know how to drive.

Skills plays the largest roll in keeping that car safe at speed. Common sense can do a lot at lower speeds.

Some photos from my trip. :-)

HD911

I think Nick should get a Toyota Camry and play it safe.

BuddyG

Nick you have made it quite obvious numerous times that you do not possess the skill to own a Carrera GT so why do continually come on this site and try to convince others that they should follow your lead? You bought a Ferrari good for you! The people that actually have purchased a Carrera GT on this board seem to be very happy with their cars.

DROP IT AND MOVE ON!