CGT value V. Hemi cuda Convertible
07-06-2005, 01:20 AM
#78
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M758,
I respect the fact that muscle cars don't interest you. I was not trying to convince you to start liking the cars or consider the purchase of one. However I don't respect the fact people today and on this forum can't seem to disagree about things without becoming disagreeable? Hemi ragtop has been as he said "lurking" on this forum for a while but chose to begin posting on this thread because he found the topic interesting. And in fact many have posted their thoughts on the topic of comparing classic perfromance cars with modern performance cars and their respective values.
Hemi ragtop then chose to share with us his collection by posting pictures. His collection is quite impressive to those who enjoy muscle cars and classic high performance American cars of that era. And even if you don't like or respect muscle cars it is undeniable that every car in his collection which he seems to enjoy very much as evidenced by the car show pictures is APPERCIATING.
Not many of us have cars that are appreciating. How much and how fast Hemi ragtops collectiion is appreciating is up for debate. But make no mistake they are appreciating. I could sell his POS challenger rag top as you described it tomorrow for close to 500K in minutes. How many of us can say that about cars we own?
If Hemi rag top was not offended by the POS description of his cars by you I certainly was. And I was embarrassed because I asked him to post pictures of his cars only to have you describe them as a POS. Why must so many today who find no interest in something then label it as a POS?????? Is the standard for quality on this forum that everything else is a POS if we don't like it or it's not built in Germany???? I hate the opera but I would hesitate to describe it as a POS??? One persons POS is anothers pride and joy IMHO. It seems to me that a tolerant person can respect other cars and have no interest without describing it as a POS.
My 9 year old son often posts and reads along with me on this forum and I have to explain to him what POS means??? Is this forum now rated R? Crap I REALLY hate rap music but still don't label it as POS???
In regard to muscle car prices low mile original Grand Nationals are trading hands in the low 20s and they sold for high teens in 1987. Low mile original GNXs are trading for 55K to 65K after selling new at 29K. I just returned from the National Shelby meet and normally there are several nice cars for sale. Not this year only 3 and they were not high caliber. A friend was at the national GTO meet in St. Louis over the weekend and couldn't buy anything even at super silly prices. Enthusiats not speculators own many of these cars today and the supply is slim with the demand still very high. So these POS cars are going to be apperciating until the supply loosens up IMHO. I wish I had more of these POS cars.
I respect the fact that muscle cars don't interest you. I was not trying to convince you to start liking the cars or consider the purchase of one. However I don't respect the fact people today and on this forum can't seem to disagree about things without becoming disagreeable? Hemi ragtop has been as he said "lurking" on this forum for a while but chose to begin posting on this thread because he found the topic interesting. And in fact many have posted their thoughts on the topic of comparing classic perfromance cars with modern performance cars and their respective values.
Hemi ragtop then chose to share with us his collection by posting pictures. His collection is quite impressive to those who enjoy muscle cars and classic high performance American cars of that era. And even if you don't like or respect muscle cars it is undeniable that every car in his collection which he seems to enjoy very much as evidenced by the car show pictures is APPERCIATING.
Not many of us have cars that are appreciating. How much and how fast Hemi ragtops collectiion is appreciating is up for debate. But make no mistake they are appreciating. I could sell his POS challenger rag top as you described it tomorrow for close to 500K in minutes. How many of us can say that about cars we own?
If Hemi rag top was not offended by the POS description of his cars by you I certainly was. And I was embarrassed because I asked him to post pictures of his cars only to have you describe them as a POS. Why must so many today who find no interest in something then label it as a POS?????? Is the standard for quality on this forum that everything else is a POS if we don't like it or it's not built in Germany???? I hate the opera but I would hesitate to describe it as a POS??? One persons POS is anothers pride and joy IMHO. It seems to me that a tolerant person can respect other cars and have no interest without describing it as a POS.
My 9 year old son often posts and reads along with me on this forum and I have to explain to him what POS means??? Is this forum now rated R? Crap I REALLY hate rap music but still don't label it as POS???
In regard to muscle car prices low mile original Grand Nationals are trading hands in the low 20s and they sold for high teens in 1987. Low mile original GNXs are trading for 55K to 65K after selling new at 29K. I just returned from the National Shelby meet and normally there are several nice cars for sale. Not this year only 3 and they were not high caliber. A friend was at the national GTO meet in St. Louis over the weekend and couldn't buy anything even at super silly prices. Enthusiats not speculators own many of these cars today and the supply is slim with the demand still very high. So these POS cars are going to be apperciating until the supply loosens up IMHO. I wish I had more of these POS cars.
07-06-2005, 12:36 PM
#79
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Les,
My point was simply that muscle cars don't appeal to all people. Right now they are the hot thing, but I have no idea where they will be in 20-30 years. Maybe still valuable, but my guess is certainly not hot. Just like 30's Packard is still valuable, but not at all "Hot".
I am aware of Mucsle cars and know that they are quite valuable, Hemi ragtop's collection is quite impressive. However I am always disappointed when I see these cars up close. As you stated in an earlier post they are not paragons of quality craftsmanship. Also to me the driving experience is not for me. Big motor and not much else.
In my mind valualbe cars are part art work, part technology, and part place in history. The muscle cars do have a place in history, but in my mind they are over valued. I see 95% of those who want Muscle cars to be one of two type. Those that want to re-live their youth and those that feel they can make buck. I my view of market like that once those that want to re live their youth have either passed on or new generation's "youth" is different muscle cars will not longer be "Hot" the speculators will be driven out.
Lets face once important thing. Collecting cars is just like art. Some folks like certin works of art other don't. Just because some does on like painting you speet $3M on does not mean they don't like art. I just mean they don't have your tastes. I really hate those that think they because they like Aritst XXX that everyone should. Nope you like XXX that is fine, but me I think his work is crap. Just because I think it crap it does not automaticly make it bad art. Nope you'd be way too insecure if you got upset about that.
Personally I have a different view of cars based on my generation and up brining. When I was younger most american cars were crap. Unfortunalty many still are. My memories of cars was from the 80's when the americans made mostly junk, the Japanese made good working cars, but without any soul, and europeans made all the "cool" cars. The coolest of those never made it to the US due to our stupid regs or of they did were watered down.
When I grew up muscle cars were the old rusted out beatup lound boats. Sure most of these cars were the low hp crap that got produced and I rarely ever saw a truely valuable muscle car, but these images are stuck in my mind. Being the age I am I can't get into muscle cars nor can I get into front wheel drive sport compacts. I do know that kids of today that back in the 60's would have been building hot rods are now build sport compacts. Why? Because they are cheap to aquire, plentiful, and have lots of upgrade potential. The fact that fwd sucks vs rwd or the a 4 cyl can make a much power as 400+ cu in V8 does not seem to make much difference.
So I guess I just want to let you guys know that "Muscle Car" are not the end all be all of Collector cars. Their time in the spot light will pass. At some point the bubble will burst and their values will drop to a more reasonable level. I am not sure when that will happen and how much their values will change, but it will happen. If you own classic muscle for right reasons this drop in value won't mean a thing to you as you got the car not for how much it was worht at auction, but because YOU liked it.
My point was simply that muscle cars don't appeal to all people. Right now they are the hot thing, but I have no idea where they will be in 20-30 years. Maybe still valuable, but my guess is certainly not hot. Just like 30's Packard is still valuable, but not at all "Hot".
I am aware of Mucsle cars and know that they are quite valuable, Hemi ragtop's collection is quite impressive. However I am always disappointed when I see these cars up close. As you stated in an earlier post they are not paragons of quality craftsmanship. Also to me the driving experience is not for me. Big motor and not much else.
In my mind valualbe cars are part art work, part technology, and part place in history. The muscle cars do have a place in history, but in my mind they are over valued. I see 95% of those who want Muscle cars to be one of two type. Those that want to re-live their youth and those that feel they can make buck. I my view of market like that once those that want to re live their youth have either passed on or new generation's "youth" is different muscle cars will not longer be "Hot" the speculators will be driven out.
Lets face once important thing. Collecting cars is just like art. Some folks like certin works of art other don't. Just because some does on like painting you speet $3M on does not mean they don't like art. I just mean they don't have your tastes. I really hate those that think they because they like Aritst XXX that everyone should. Nope you like XXX that is fine, but me I think his work is crap. Just because I think it crap it does not automaticly make it bad art. Nope you'd be way too insecure if you got upset about that.
Personally I have a different view of cars based on my generation and up brining. When I was younger most american cars were crap. Unfortunalty many still are. My memories of cars was from the 80's when the americans made mostly junk, the Japanese made good working cars, but without any soul, and europeans made all the "cool" cars. The coolest of those never made it to the US due to our stupid regs or of they did were watered down.
When I grew up muscle cars were the old rusted out beatup lound boats. Sure most of these cars were the low hp crap that got produced and I rarely ever saw a truely valuable muscle car, but these images are stuck in my mind. Being the age I am I can't get into muscle cars nor can I get into front wheel drive sport compacts. I do know that kids of today that back in the 60's would have been building hot rods are now build sport compacts. Why? Because they are cheap to aquire, plentiful, and have lots of upgrade potential. The fact that fwd sucks vs rwd or the a 4 cyl can make a much power as 400+ cu in V8 does not seem to make much difference.
So I guess I just want to let you guys know that "Muscle Car" are not the end all be all of Collector cars. Their time in the spot light will pass. At some point the bubble will burst and their values will drop to a more reasonable level. I am not sure when that will happen and how much their values will change, but it will happen. If you own classic muscle for right reasons this drop in value won't mean a thing to you as you got the car not for how much it was worht at auction, but because YOU liked it.
07-07-2005, 09:06 PM
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I understand and agree with his point.
Muscle cars don't appeal to all and I can't think of any one car or line of cars that appeals to everyone. Liking a car in my view will always be subjective. There are many that think Porsche's of all types are a POS.
Muscle cars were not quality cars when originally manufactured. However when the top restorer in his or her chosen specialty restores a muscle car it is an incredible piece of work light years ahead of what was originally manufactured. IMHO equal to any modern high dollar car. I have an over restored 64 GTO that sits next to my CGT and the fit and finish and attention to detail on the GTO equals or exceeds the CGT in my objective opinion. However an original unrestored survivor is simply like you say a POS compared to a modern high dollar car. As it should be since technology is 41 years more advanced.
That said I have a couple of unrestored survivor cars and they are beautiful in their own right simply because they are still around and original. One car is a 70 Boss 302 with 29,000 original miles and original paint, original interior etc. Is it a match for a new mustang? Hell no, but it has it's own beauty to the person who appreciates that kind of car. Some see it has a POS some see it as a piece of automotive history beautifully preserved for this generation to see how good or bad we built cars in 1970 compared to today. I also own a 73 mustang convertible with 144 original miles with the plastic still on the seats and the sticker still in the window which I bought last year. Holy cow is it poorly built by todays standards! But just looking at it and sitting in it is like going back in a time warp.
Are muscle cars currently overvalued? I sure think so. I have no idea why they continue to appreciate. Heck a new 2004 mustang SVT cobra will outrun ANY prior mustang in history including the vaunted 200K Boss 429. A new viper or Z06 vette will out run ANY muscle car in history including a 427 camaro or L88 vette. But people still pay more every year for the muscle cars. Why these muscle cars cars don't peak and level off is a mystery to me. I thought a few years ago when a HEMI cuda coupe was 150K it was the end of the world and the bubble had to burst. Today they still trade at close to or over 300K and that is private transactions not just Barrett Jackson. If you can even find one for sale???
So I think I understand what you are trying to say?
Muscle cars don't appeal to all and I can't think of any one car or line of cars that appeals to everyone. Liking a car in my view will always be subjective. There are many that think Porsche's of all types are a POS.
Muscle cars were not quality cars when originally manufactured. However when the top restorer in his or her chosen specialty restores a muscle car it is an incredible piece of work light years ahead of what was originally manufactured. IMHO equal to any modern high dollar car. I have an over restored 64 GTO that sits next to my CGT and the fit and finish and attention to detail on the GTO equals or exceeds the CGT in my objective opinion. However an original unrestored survivor is simply like you say a POS compared to a modern high dollar car. As it should be since technology is 41 years more advanced.
That said I have a couple of unrestored survivor cars and they are beautiful in their own right simply because they are still around and original. One car is a 70 Boss 302 with 29,000 original miles and original paint, original interior etc. Is it a match for a new mustang? Hell no, but it has it's own beauty to the person who appreciates that kind of car. Some see it has a POS some see it as a piece of automotive history beautifully preserved for this generation to see how good or bad we built cars in 1970 compared to today. I also own a 73 mustang convertible with 144 original miles with the plastic still on the seats and the sticker still in the window which I bought last year. Holy cow is it poorly built by todays standards! But just looking at it and sitting in it is like going back in a time warp.
Are muscle cars currently overvalued? I sure think so. I have no idea why they continue to appreciate. Heck a new 2004 mustang SVT cobra will outrun ANY prior mustang in history including the vaunted 200K Boss 429. A new viper or Z06 vette will out run ANY muscle car in history including a 427 camaro or L88 vette. But people still pay more every year for the muscle cars. Why these muscle cars cars don't peak and level off is a mystery to me. I thought a few years ago when a HEMI cuda coupe was 150K it was the end of the world and the bubble had to burst. Today they still trade at close to or over 300K and that is private transactions not just Barrett Jackson. If you can even find one for sale???
So I think I understand what you are trying to say?
