CGT value V. Hemi cuda Convertible
06-25-2005, 10:29 PM
#61
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 720
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my opinion this market differs from previous muscle car bubbles in a few important ways.
First , the buyers in this bubble are for the most part enthusiasts not speculators. It's very difficult to get owners in this market to part with their cars. I and my friends and dealers in the muscle car community have been trying to buy cars and most owners with real authentic premium cars will not even discuss selling the cars even for silly money. So that keeps the supply down and speculators looking for a quick buck out of the market.
Second the internet has changed everything about buying a muscle car. Prior to the internet a seller could advertise in the Hemmings or in a local newspaper and that was about it. His buyer pool was limited. Now a seller can put his car on the internet in a variety of different ways and get potential buyers from all over the world. Not to mention that a buyer can examine about 50 to 100 pictures of a car from long distance on his computer and buy the car without having to travel to see the car.
Ebay has made previously unavailable rare cars known to millions. Yes for every 100 cars on ebay 97 are crap. But I have seen many authentic and rare cars sell on ebay for dollars previously seen only at Barrett Jackson.
Television is now airing live muscle car auctions creating buying frenzy's the likes no one has ever seen before.
The cost of quality restorations is up to about 50K to 100K depending on the parts needed not including the cost of the car. The waiting lists for the top restoration guys if you can even get on the waiting list is about two years. The top restorers are literally turning away customers today. People who can afford to pay cash of six figures on a restoration plus the purchase of the car are not going to just dump their cars that they waited years to get restored. The cars and restorations are not financed a change in the economy and interest rates won't cause a mass sell off triggering lower prices.
Like any overheated market the bubble could burst. But like Hemiragtop stated the demise of this market has been predicted for years and the market just keeps getting stronger and higher each month.
First , the buyers in this bubble are for the most part enthusiasts not speculators. It's very difficult to get owners in this market to part with their cars. I and my friends and dealers in the muscle car community have been trying to buy cars and most owners with real authentic premium cars will not even discuss selling the cars even for silly money. So that keeps the supply down and speculators looking for a quick buck out of the market.
Second the internet has changed everything about buying a muscle car. Prior to the internet a seller could advertise in the Hemmings or in a local newspaper and that was about it. His buyer pool was limited. Now a seller can put his car on the internet in a variety of different ways and get potential buyers from all over the world. Not to mention that a buyer can examine about 50 to 100 pictures of a car from long distance on his computer and buy the car without having to travel to see the car.
Ebay has made previously unavailable rare cars known to millions. Yes for every 100 cars on ebay 97 are crap. But I have seen many authentic and rare cars sell on ebay for dollars previously seen only at Barrett Jackson.
Television is now airing live muscle car auctions creating buying frenzy's the likes no one has ever seen before.
The cost of quality restorations is up to about 50K to 100K depending on the parts needed not including the cost of the car. The waiting lists for the top restoration guys if you can even get on the waiting list is about two years. The top restorers are literally turning away customers today. People who can afford to pay cash of six figures on a restoration plus the purchase of the car are not going to just dump their cars that they waited years to get restored. The cars and restorations are not financed a change in the economy and interest rates won't cause a mass sell off triggering lower prices.
Like any overheated market the bubble could burst. But like Hemiragtop stated the demise of this market has been predicted for years and the market just keeps getting stronger and higher each month.
06-30-2005, 01:07 PM
#65
Race Director
Guys,
I it will be interesting to see what becomes of the classic car market.
I am 31 years old and this car... (with all due respect to the owner)
Looks like POS to me... I know it is rare and all and has value to many, but zip to me.
I guy I know here in Az has a Charger 500 Hemi. I looked at it once and can apperciate its place in history. However as nice as the car was it looked like a POS. Very poorly built in general. I would not both taking up space in may Garage with such a car (except for speculation purposes).
So I know I am only 1 member of the newer Generation, but I wonder what will become of these Muscle cars in 25 to 30 years when those of my Generation get older and being to have disposable funds like the baby boomers?
In some strange way I think the new classics will come from Japan.
Acura Interga Type R I think will be one. I have friend with a Interga Type R probuilt race car. It ran in Grand Am Cup and won a couple class championships. When ever he takes that car out to the track all kids start drooling over it. 4 cyliner front drive "rice rockets" are the Muscle cars of today and may bring money in 25 years.
I have feeling that special models of these cars may infact be worth something. Now I could put my money where my mouth is and buy one now with hopes of selling for $$$$$$$$ later, but I just could be wrong too.
My point is that I really don't know what the next collector car craze with bring. When I look at 80's cars what really stands out? Frankly Porsche's will always have value to the Porsche community, but limited for the general public. So consider no Porsches, just late 80's early 90's cars. Which ones are going to be worth something? What cars were lusted after? For me it was Porsche's so I guess I am an odd ball anyway.
I it will be interesting to see what becomes of the classic car market.
I am 31 years old and this car... (with all due respect to the owner)
Looks like POS to me... I know it is rare and all and has value to many, but zip to me.
I guy I know here in Az has a Charger 500 Hemi. I looked at it once and can apperciate its place in history. However as nice as the car was it looked like a POS. Very poorly built in general. I would not both taking up space in may Garage with such a car (except for speculation purposes).
So I know I am only 1 member of the newer Generation, but I wonder what will become of these Muscle cars in 25 to 30 years when those of my Generation get older and being to have disposable funds like the baby boomers?
In some strange way I think the new classics will come from Japan.
Acura Interga Type R I think will be one. I have friend with a Interga Type R probuilt race car. It ran in Grand Am Cup and won a couple class championships. When ever he takes that car out to the track all kids start drooling over it. 4 cyliner front drive "rice rockets" are the Muscle cars of today and may bring money in 25 years.
I have feeling that special models of these cars may infact be worth something. Now I could put my money where my mouth is and buy one now with hopes of selling for $$$$$$$$ later, but I just could be wrong too.
My point is that I really don't know what the next collector car craze with bring. When I look at 80's cars what really stands out? Frankly Porsche's will always have value to the Porsche community, but limited for the general public. So consider no Porsches, just late 80's early 90's cars. Which ones are going to be worth something? What cars were lusted after? For me it was Porsche's so I guess I am an odd ball anyway.
06-30-2005, 07:44 PM
#66
Intermediate
M758, I'm 31 just like you and I have to agree with you about the muscle cars. I tell people all the time that the Japanese cars will be the ones bringing money in the future. Most of them just laugh at me 
I sold a pristine 1995 RX-7 (one of less than 500 imported for the 1995 model year) in order to buy my GT3. When the buyer drove off, I told her if you keep this car in good condition, I fully expect to see it fetching six figures at Barrett Jackson in 20 years!
And while I don't have much enthusiasm for the big power muscle cars. Early Mustangs and Shelbys do hold a special place for me. In my mind they tried to be a sportscar rather than a straight line wonder. And my first car back in the early 90's was a 1967 coupe that my Dad and I restored.
And to prove I'm not "modern car biased" I absolutely love the '50s and '60s sports racing cars like the Maserati 300s, Ferrari 246SP, and the Lotus Elan 26R. I've never had the pleasure of driving any of them, but they are glorious looking machines.
Jason
I sold a pristine 1995 RX-7 (one of less than 500 imported for the 1995 model year) in order to buy my GT3. When the buyer drove off, I told her if you keep this car in good condition, I fully expect to see it fetching six figures at Barrett Jackson in 20 years!
And while I don't have much enthusiasm for the big power muscle cars. Early Mustangs and Shelbys do hold a special place for me. In my mind they tried to be a sportscar rather than a straight line wonder. And my first car back in the early 90's was a 1967 coupe that my Dad and I restored.
And to prove I'm not "modern car biased" I absolutely love the '50s and '60s sports racing cars like the Maserati 300s, Ferrari 246SP, and the Lotus Elan 26R. I've never had the pleasure of driving any of them, but they are glorious looking machines.
Jason
06-30-2005, 08:17 PM
#67
Race Director
Originally Posted by jaymtford
And to prove I'm not "modern car biased" I absolutely love the '50s and '60s sports racing cars like the Maserati 300s, Ferrari 246SP, and the Lotus Elan 26R. I've never had the pleasure of driving any of them, but they are glorious looking machines.
Jason
Jason
Yum Yum....
07-01-2005, 12:37 AM
#68
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 720
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
M758,
The cars you are describing as POS were in fact built as mass produced cars in Detroit between the years of 1964 and 1971 by disinterested workers who were for the most part stoned on nickel bags of grass and listening to the Beatles sing "all you need is love". They have never been represented by anyone as fine quality hand built cars.
However for that 7 year period the Detroit manufacturers were engaged in a HP war on the NASCAR tracks and drag strips of America. Many of the cars produced for the street were only sold to the public to qualify the engines for the tracks. The Hemi's, Boss 429s, Boss 302s are such examples. They were priced at a level the average person could afford in that era. Therefore quality had to suffer to a large degree. They were also victims of the technology of that era as well.
Their enduring quality is that most muscle cars should never have been built in the first place. Ford never should have stuffed big heavy large cubic inch displacement engines in mustangs with poor brakes and terrible handling. The same goes for Mopars and Chevy's. In that era there were no concerns about safety. Only power and style. When Chrysler and Dodge built the challengers and Cuda's for the first time in 1970 they were built for drop dead looks and tons of torque and compression. Saftey, gas mileage, handling all never entered into the equation. They simply had to make a car with more HP and better looks than the other guys.
Much of the styling of that era is timeless and is acknowledged as such by the new 2005 mustang and Ford GT etc. It will quite simply be a brief time in automotive history that will never come again. It ended abruptly in 1971 when the US Govt. changed the emissions requirements and gas prices went skyrocketing a year or two later and insurance companies raised the rates so high on these cars no one could afford them any longer. As usual the American car manufacturers were caught completly sleeping and had no technology to rival that of the Japanese companies that had the foresight to see it all coming.
Your question of whether the current Asian cars will be collectible is easy to answer. The answer is no, IMHO because they have been making these cars for almost 20 years and there are tons of them and they are vitrually indistingishable from one another. One of the reasons Porsche's don't hold their value or appreciate like say a Ferrari is because most 911s are similiar in appearence and were made in large quantities.
From my experience when I drive through my neighborhood in my GT2 none of the teenagers even looks up from their skateboards and gangsta rap earphones. When I drive through in my Carrera GT I get a few looks and all the kids love the great sound. When I drive through in my Hemi charger they literally stand in front of the car and stop me to tell them about it. They can't believe the outrageous colors and sounds from a big block high compression solid lifter camshaft motor.
Recently a magazine did a survey and asked a cross section of 16 year old kids to look at a bunch of car pictures from many different era's. The most favorite car was a 1969 Z28 camaro, next was a 69 mach 1. Go figure??? No Asian cars, no Enzo, no CGT a 1969 Z28??? 1960s styling was just timeless.
At Barrett Jackson this year their were many age 30 something bidders spending big bucks on muscle cars. The appeal of those cars built in that 7 year period cross's a wide spectrum of age groups.
Finally the 70 challenger you posted a picture of and described as a POS is an original survivor type car. The top restorers of muscle cars today are hand assembling the cars after body off restorations and the quality equals or surpasses any Porsche GT2 or Carrera GT in terms of fit and finish. The top restorations today are in reality automotive works of art much like Ferrari's and some Porsche's. However a car can only be original once and the muscle car survivors are true pieces of automotive history for better or worse. They were not great cars when built and for the most part they don't get better with age.
The cars you are describing as POS were in fact built as mass produced cars in Detroit between the years of 1964 and 1971 by disinterested workers who were for the most part stoned on nickel bags of grass and listening to the Beatles sing "all you need is love". They have never been represented by anyone as fine quality hand built cars.
However for that 7 year period the Detroit manufacturers were engaged in a HP war on the NASCAR tracks and drag strips of America. Many of the cars produced for the street were only sold to the public to qualify the engines for the tracks. The Hemi's, Boss 429s, Boss 302s are such examples. They were priced at a level the average person could afford in that era. Therefore quality had to suffer to a large degree. They were also victims of the technology of that era as well.
Their enduring quality is that most muscle cars should never have been built in the first place. Ford never should have stuffed big heavy large cubic inch displacement engines in mustangs with poor brakes and terrible handling. The same goes for Mopars and Chevy's. In that era there were no concerns about safety. Only power and style. When Chrysler and Dodge built the challengers and Cuda's for the first time in 1970 they were built for drop dead looks and tons of torque and compression. Saftey, gas mileage, handling all never entered into the equation. They simply had to make a car with more HP and better looks than the other guys.
Much of the styling of that era is timeless and is acknowledged as such by the new 2005 mustang and Ford GT etc. It will quite simply be a brief time in automotive history that will never come again. It ended abruptly in 1971 when the US Govt. changed the emissions requirements and gas prices went skyrocketing a year or two later and insurance companies raised the rates so high on these cars no one could afford them any longer. As usual the American car manufacturers were caught completly sleeping and had no technology to rival that of the Japanese companies that had the foresight to see it all coming.
Your question of whether the current Asian cars will be collectible is easy to answer. The answer is no, IMHO because they have been making these cars for almost 20 years and there are tons of them and they are vitrually indistingishable from one another. One of the reasons Porsche's don't hold their value or appreciate like say a Ferrari is because most 911s are similiar in appearence and were made in large quantities.
From my experience when I drive through my neighborhood in my GT2 none of the teenagers even looks up from their skateboards and gangsta rap earphones. When I drive through in my Carrera GT I get a few looks and all the kids love the great sound. When I drive through in my Hemi charger they literally stand in front of the car and stop me to tell them about it. They can't believe the outrageous colors and sounds from a big block high compression solid lifter camshaft motor.
Recently a magazine did a survey and asked a cross section of 16 year old kids to look at a bunch of car pictures from many different era's. The most favorite car was a 1969 Z28 camaro, next was a 69 mach 1. Go figure??? No Asian cars, no Enzo, no CGT a 1969 Z28??? 1960s styling was just timeless.
At Barrett Jackson this year their were many age 30 something bidders spending big bucks on muscle cars. The appeal of those cars built in that 7 year period cross's a wide spectrum of age groups.
Finally the 70 challenger you posted a picture of and described as a POS is an original survivor type car. The top restorers of muscle cars today are hand assembling the cars after body off restorations and the quality equals or surpasses any Porsche GT2 or Carrera GT in terms of fit and finish. The top restorations today are in reality automotive works of art much like Ferrari's and some Porsche's. However a car can only be original once and the muscle car survivors are true pieces of automotive history for better or worse. They were not great cars when built and for the most part they don't get better with age.
07-01-2005, 10:41 AM
#69
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Les Quam
M758,
It ended abruptly in 1971 when the US Govt. changed the emissions requirements and gas prices went skyrocketing a year or two later and insurance companies raised the rates so high on these cars no one could afford them any longer. As usual the American car manufacturers were caught completly sleeping and had no technology to rival that of the Japanese companies that had the foresight to see it all coming.
It ended abruptly in 1971 when the US Govt. changed the emissions requirements and gas prices went skyrocketing a year or two later and insurance companies raised the rates so high on these cars no one could afford them any longer. As usual the American car manufacturers were caught completly sleeping and had no technology to rival that of the Japanese companies that had the foresight to see it all coming.
Originally Posted by Les Quam
Your question of whether the current Asian cars will be collectible is easy to answer. The answer is no, IMHO because they have been making these cars for almost 20 years and there are tons of them and they are vitrually indistingishable from one another. One of the reasons Porsche's don't hold their value or appreciate like say a Ferrari is because most 911s are similiar in appearence and were made in large quantities.
Originally Posted by Les Quam
From my experience when I drive through my neighborhood in my GT2 none of the teenagers even looks up from their skateboards and gangsta rap earphones. When I drive through in my Carrera GT I get a few looks and all the kids love the great sound. When I drive through in my Hemi charger they literally stand in front of the car and stop me to tell them about it. They can't believe the outrageous colors and sounds from a big block high compression solid lifter camshaft motor.
It's hard not to love the sound of raw power.I find that driving either the turbo or the GTS around my neighborhood, I get kids and adults of all ages giving me the thumbs up or yelling some kind of compliment around every turn. Especially in the 7-16 age group. They seem to know the turbo by reputation and the GTS is just a unique looking car that most kids think is a new model they are not aware of. Most follow me on their bikes and yell questions like how fast is it and can you light up the tires for us. I just nod and yell thanks. I also find that the 20 something crowd that drives these moded Hondas and Mazdas all have a great respect for the 94 turbo. If I hear another one tell me about how they loved it in the movie Bad Boys when they were 12 I am going to shoot myself. Many of them come over to talk to me about how classic the lines are and they just love the big reds and the speedlines. Many show me how they style their cars after the 94 turbo. They almost all claim to be pumping out some monstrous amount of HP but everyone says that they would not hesitate to trade me in an instant. Theya lso make comments about how the newer Porsches all look alike and don't do it for them.
So maybe there is something to be said for all of this. To me the mid 90's was the end for cars I consider desirable. Technology took over, There was little to nothing left to learn other than how to make performance more economical. Aerodynamically all cars began to look alike. Mass production and leasing made the automobile less important than it was to the average person in the past. The days of putting your garage in the front of the house to show off your prised possession is gone. Soon cars will only be important to a very small crowd and their are many vintage cars becoming more affordable all the time. Autos to the average person have become just transportation and you can't use these cars the way you could 15 or 20 years ago.The roads are too crowded and people drive worse than ever.
In the end although looks are important to some degree, what made a car great in my book is how you felt behind the wheel and what made Porsche my favorite was how it allowed me to drive fast, feel safe and stoped time while I was driving. Nothing else seems to matter when you are downshifting into that nice sweeping turn and the car just pulls along handling everything you throw at it.
It will be interesting to see were all this leads.
07-01-2005, 12:23 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Woodster
Anthony, well said. Does my built in 1995 993 Twin Turbo make it before your
"end for cars"?? LOL
"end for cars"?? LOL
You just make it with my mid 90's theory.
07-01-2005, 12:37 PM
#72
Race Director
Les I completely respect you opinion and understand that the muscle car era was unique in many ways. I however have no desire to buy nor own one of those cars. Please respect the fact that I don't care for them in any way. Also realize that Just like cobalt said those kids are saying they loved the 94 Turbo in Bad Boys when they were 12. Well it is that SAME spirt of the 12 year loving the 70 cuda back in the day that are not spend bigs bucks on the car they loved so much when they were 12.
I am not sure what come of classic in the future, but Muscle cars don't appeal to all. I went to Barrett Jackson this past year. I saw alot of same old stuff. Muscle car after muscle car. It got really old really fast. May 10% of the cars there were something I found interesting. I still can't understand why anyone would speed on 100k on Chevy Bel Air or 225k on Hemi and while a 73 RS went for a mere 90k?
Just as 20 years ago the 30's Dusenberg, Cords, etc were big in the classic scene, Muscle cars won't drop off the map, but will dimish in Mass apeal. That may impact the market value it may not. 25 years from now there will be another type car with mass appeal. To know what it will be you need to look at what the 20 something kids are after now and might have $$ to get when they are 40-50 and intheir peak earning years. When I am that old I certainly won't be looking for a Muscle car that is for sure.
I am not sure what come of classic in the future, but Muscle cars don't appeal to all. I went to Barrett Jackson this past year. I saw alot of same old stuff. Muscle car after muscle car. It got really old really fast. May 10% of the cars there were something I found interesting. I still can't understand why anyone would speed on 100k on Chevy Bel Air or 225k on Hemi and while a 73 RS went for a mere 90k?
Just as 20 years ago the 30's Dusenberg, Cords, etc were big in the classic scene, Muscle cars won't drop off the map, but will dimish in Mass apeal. That may impact the market value it may not. 25 years from now there will be another type car with mass appeal. To know what it will be you need to look at what the 20 something kids are after now and might have $$ to get when they are 40-50 and intheir peak earning years. When I am that old I certainly won't be looking for a Muscle car that is for sure.
07-02-2005, 12:50 PM
#73
AutoX
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Staten Island, N.Y
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Listen in regards to the POS comment I don't take it personal, I'm 34 yrs old and happen to love OLD Nostalgic cars, Les Quam hit on the head regarding the appeal of these cars, however I know one thing I would NEVER want is a 944 Turbo bomb Porsche, you can't give those things away! !P.S I can sell that POS in the picture and buy a Carrera GT. 
Last edited by Hemiragtop; 07-02-2005 at 01:21 PM.
07-05-2005, 11:06 PM
#74
Tony K: "Growing up in the 1980s and getting my license in 1990, there were no "cool" cars of recent manufacture when I was in high school and college. If you wanted something fast, you either had to have oodles of money for an exotic, or you had to buy a pre-1975 car and soup it up. Trans Ams were under 200 hp and slow."
Not a Grand National fan eh?
If you have an all original low mile GN it's worth almost as much now as when they were brand new. What's more, with simple(ie easily removable) bolt-on modifications any 86-87 Grand National is EASILY capable of 400+ hp, and can be returned to stock in a single afternoon.
The GMC Typhoon/Cyclone were even faster, and more rare- and are already worth more than the original sticker price if all original in excellent condition.
The values on either are only ever going to go up.
If you were smart enough to buy a 1987 Buick GNX new and put it in a garage to sit for 30 years you are sitting back smiling right now. God only knows what those things will be worth in another 13 years.
A lot of folks scoffed at the expedition as a collector car, but ask yourself, what is a mint condition 1960 Caddilac worth nowadays....?
If you have an all original mint 2005 Expedition in 2045- it WILL be worth money.
Not a Grand National fan eh?
If you have an all original low mile GN it's worth almost as much now as when they were brand new. What's more, with simple(ie easily removable) bolt-on modifications any 86-87 Grand National is EASILY capable of 400+ hp, and can be returned to stock in a single afternoon.
The GMC Typhoon/Cyclone were even faster, and more rare- and are already worth more than the original sticker price if all original in excellent condition.
The values on either are only ever going to go up.
If you were smart enough to buy a 1987 Buick GNX new and put it in a garage to sit for 30 years you are sitting back smiling right now. God only knows what those things will be worth in another 13 years.
A lot of folks scoffed at the expedition as a collector car, but ask yourself, what is a mint condition 1960 Caddilac worth nowadays....?
If you have an all original mint 2005 Expedition in 2045- it WILL be worth money.
Last edited by m21sniper; 07-05-2005 at 11:30 PM.