ben in lj

this is exactly why i am skeptical about whether production will really end up making it past 1000 - unless PAG provides large dealer subsidies to move the cars nobody is willing to pay even invoice for.

Sobe

I just do not get it ... is Mercedes having trouble moving their 450K model ...... For any true Porsche lover who can afford it I would think it would be a go ..

W8MM

That's not quite true in every case, although it was true for me.

When I went to the 2003 Geneva auto show introduction event for the CGT, I talked to a number of "sticker-shocked" customers who had been assured by their dealers before the show that the CGT would be priced between 350 and 375. One fellow said he had been required to put down the $50,000 deposit BEFORE Porsche officially announced MSRP @ 440. Many people with whom I spoke confirmed that they were not allowed to go the the intro event unless they had put down the full deposit (and, one might assume, signed something). One fellow from NJ was so upset about the price increase that he was considering legal action --- back in early 2003!

While I understand the Dollar/Euro issues (Porsche always said from day one that the CGT would sell for less than Eur400K -- and US$440K is much less now than Eur400), I think PAG/PCNA badly handled the pre-release PR and badly misjudged the many ways in which their dealer network could make things go bad over the long time frame from project announcement to delivery of actual cars.

I agree that the speculators are a major part of the issue. As I recall, Porsche tried to take speculation into account in their planning, but I guess they were not sufficiently skeptical of every method that a speculator could use to influence the projected count.

There are some rumors that some high-profile prospective customers influenced Porsche to give some dealers CGT allocations to which they were otherwise not entitled, pretending that the CGT was for themselves. Later, it seems that the ordered car ended up being sold to the highest bidder when the "original customer" mysteriously backed out on delivery. Some onlookers speculate that the original order was a favor to the dealer and the "original purchaser" never planned to take delivery in the first place.

Since Porsche had no previous experience in auction-atmosphere product planning, they may have assumed it was easier than it has proved to be. Unfortunately, their most faithful customers will end up absorbing the speculators' predations, not Porsche.

As for me, I plan to keep my soon-to-arrive paint-to-sample 2005 CGT for many, many years and enjoy it until it becomes a well used car. What the speculators have done to the car-as-investment-property crowd is mainly an intelectual distraction to me. Whatever happens to the spot price for CGTs won't stop me from driving the whee out of mine.

brakedust

btw, last data point i have is that production is scheduled to wind up this july ('05), fully one year before it was originally slated to do so. i'm guessing that they'll never produce the 1,500 cars they forecast, and will do something closer to 1,000, thanks to the market fading on them.

ben in lj

how do you know that 7/05 is it? i'm not surprised though if that is in fact. given the limited # per day they are even capable of making, that would equate to 1k.

PogueMoHone

I think Porsche lost a lot of really good customers over this debacle.

I was one of those with an early (non-speculative) interest in the car that never got an invite to the "introduction"

At Leipzig, if they had listened to those of us interested in the car it was as plain as day then that 1500 was too many, and they could have nipped the problem in the bud. It was well known to them that even the Dealers were speculating in the cars. Did they yank the allocations?..no they increased them in some cases!

To satisfy your curiousity do a search on old CGT topics and you'll see sentiments haven't changed much.

The question becomes why buy a car at $450K when it might be available for 30% less?. Porsche has consistently hosed it customers these past few years with their "special" cars, and in doing so are undermining the "franchise" value.

The wholesale bid on these cars now is probably somewhere around $360K. Proving the real value was always around $375K, not the infated price?

Is production stopping because Porsche realizes the mistake or is NA production stopping because they can't meet the Federal regs for 06?

I agree with W8MM it is silly to try and speculate on cars, but also why "whee" away $100K because of stupid tactics by Porsche and their dealers. Their loyalty is clearly not to the customer, and particularly those customers who have purchased cars from them through "thick and thin"

Is there a lesson here?

Nick

Speculators had nothing to do with the loss of value in this car. It is a function of Porsche announced excess production 750-1500 units along with a price increase of 30%, a car which appeals to a small coterie of sport car enthusiast and Porsches' reputation for not protecting customer value. I know of a couple of individuals who backed out because they did not trust Porsche regarding what will happen to the value of the car( their concerns ended up being valid). Neither one was a speculator or investor. They just did not want to be hosed to line Porsches' pockets.

The 997 values are dropping much earlier than the TT's and GT2's. I fear it will be bloodbath for those who own one or have one on order.

Mike has the right attitude. Buy a Porsche do not concern yourself with value and drive it for several years. Alas the real world does not work that way. Porsche is very good in inducing their customer base to buy their new iteration of products. Porschephiles are willing to endure financial castration in order to drive their beloved Porsche's.

1958 Convertible D

Your local PCA chapter must be dramatically different from mine. Most of our members do not have brand new cars. And while I can't speak with 100% accuracy, I'm presuming that most of the guys still have their *****.

Pierre

The real sales contract of course mentioned the final price, but the pre-order contract was basically saying that the final specs and price still could be changed by Porsche. Signing such a piece of paper wasn't easy. Some people who had signed the early letter of intent backed-off at that point. Some others chose to trust Porsche, and signed it. Some of them bailed out later when they saw the final contract, and some managed to get out of an already signed contract after the first production cars hit the market.

So between the first letter of intent and the actual orders/deliveries, I think that quite a lot of people got out of the deal...

Greetings,
--Pierre

AmirGT2

If Porsche does indeed curtail production to 1000 cars, will it mean the value will stabilize or is the damage already done?

1958 Convertible D

Quote:

The wholesale bid on these cars now is probably somewhere around $360K. Proving the real value was always around $375K, not the infated price?

Is production stopping because Porsche realizes the mistake or is NA production stopping because they can't meet the Federal regs for 06?

Wholesale bid somewhere around $360K - where? I haven't heard of any CGT, even the "lightly hit San Diego car", selling for under $400K. Let me know, I'd like to pick one up for $360K.

While a lot of rumors are swirling, Porsche's official position is they will not build more than 1,500 CGT's. If this number is officially reduced to 1,000 and PCNA is unable to import them after 9/1/05, my expectation is that anyone in the States fortunate enough to have a Carrera GT will be very, very happy!

ben in lj

it sold for $391.

1958 Convertible D

Thanks for the info.

So if $391K is the "retail" price of a CGT with over 750 miles on the odometer, and a history of damage (the extent of the damage is disputed), does that indicate that the wholesale price for all CGT's is around $360K??? With all the insurance variables on this specific car, it's probably not a good example to use to judge the wholesale value of the rest of the model line.

It does seem apparent that any prudent buyer would prefer a car without damage history, and with low miles. This buyer could have purchased any of the few new CGT's available at list or slightly below, but instead opted to save about $59K on this used, damaged car. And don't forget, it didn't have the "Carrera GT" script on the back end.

ben in lj

yeah, i'm fairly certain $360k wholesale is horsecrap. fwiw, the repair bill on the $391k car was $150k (this comes straight from the manager of the shop that did the work).

PCH

Really?? What about the ENZO at 575K over MSRP!