Diff Housing Alert
10-27-2009, 03:56 PM
#16
Well I was really hoping to avoid getting into a pissing contest with you here Paul, so I will try to address your obviously well thought out comments here with some of my own.
First of all, as you very well know I have recommended and sold a great many of the GT differentials in the past, and have always held them to be one of the best differentials on the market. However, your view point of my sales ability has always been a biased one and some of your comments of the past certainly border on being bigoted, and self serving.
Had you been the one to develop this differential, (the OS Giken) and brought it to market, you would not be saying a thing about my comments. But due to the fact that another company has brought out some competition to you now, and due to the fact that I have been fortunate enough to have found this product, you now look to cast not only our company but also me personally and professionally into a poor light. Really? Do you really have nothing better to do in your retirement then to engage in this obvious smear campaign?
It should be noted here that I have nothing but respect for Paul Guard and Guard Transmission, but after having to deal with this for several years now, enough is enough.
I noticed that you refrained from talking too much about what the OS Giken actually brings to the table here. I am guessing that this is due to the fact that you really don't have much space here to criticize.
So let us you and me set the record straight for everyone here. Porsche street differential, as well as Porsche Motorsport differentials, until recently, have been using carbon as the primary friction material in their differentials for years and years. Of this I am sure you will agree, as your prior comments here said that you had in the past been rebuilding and upgrading these differentials with your more aggressive friction and plain plates, replacing the carbon ones.
This has since changed, Porsche now uses a Brass friction material that that is actually quite similar to their synchronizer material, (see pic) The reason behind this is two fold. With the addition of greater HP and Torque the past Carbon plates were simply not holding up under the stress, and maintaining a locked state during track application. This better friction material would allow the Porsche differential to increase it's grip without having the need to completely redesign the internals to allow for more plate internally. Here is the more important consideration though. The main reason for going to a brass friction material is to ensure that as the differential sheds material, which all differentials do a certain degree, that material does not work in a detrimental way to the rest of the gearbox. Brass is soft, and thereby does not create the same amount of detrimental particulate as say, a steel friction disc. As the brass is soft the risk of pushing materials, ie steel from the plain plates, and Moly from the friction discs, into the gear sets and bearings, is minimal.
Paul does make a very good observation here that a upgraded differential with a more aggressive friction material will allow for the differential to last a great deal longer, especially in a street application. His comment regarding a shop, presumably us here, offering a product, to our customers, that would be less versatile to their OEM LSD is almost laughable. Anyone who has done business with us here will attest to the point that we are a quality shop, with the highest levels of customer service and integrity. If anything here, I am trying to educate and share a product here that offers more durability and versatility, NOT less.
Regarding the number of plates in a LSD, and how that number effects the service interval and durability of a differential, I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this point. That you have not seen a differential's service interval increase with the reduction of plates, simply does not follow logical thought. By increasing the number of friction plates and plain plates in a differential, you effectively reduce the amount of work that the differential is required to do, you also reduce the amount of heat generated internally to the differential, due to the balance of work load throughout the greater number of clutches. A greater number of plates also increases the reliability and general operation of the differential to hold a greater amount of HP and Torque during track application.
Here is the real reason why the GT differential, as well as the Porsche Motorsport does not utilize more plates, they have not figured out a way to get the differential to release it's pressure once those plates have locked up to each other. This is the greatest advance that the OS Giken offers in their differential. The ramps on the OS Giken differential have counter springs that effectively allow the differential to re-open when the amount of torque is reduced to the differential. This is in my opinion, the advancement in mechanical differential operation that should be noted and is not available in any other differential. This allows for a very minimal amount of preload to be needed, which allows for greater feel and car control. The car does not need to have to overcome the locking effects of the differential, (which sheds metal and material in the process) when the car is not under heavy torque load.
This allow the car to turn in more accurately, and also allows the differential's durability to increase exponentially. It is effectively not having to continue to work against itself when there is no need, as when in a tight turn.
I would completely agree regarding the point made that no differential is going to be perfect for all users. This is one of things that really made the GT differential worth exploring. The multiple ramp angles cut on to the GT differential, gave the driver the ability to customize the diff to his or her own driving style. Guess what, the OS Giken is completely adjustable, as well.
Paul I will not even discuss with you the differences in our professional abilities, as this will never be something that you and I are ever going to see eye to eye on. The fact that you would even go there in this discussion does not become you.
The idea that the only company competent enough to educate a customer on their options, good, bad etc, as well as the costs involved, is BMC&G and Brian Copans, really says a lot about how you feel about the people that have purchased, installed, and recommended your products for so many years.
Now before this gets out of hand, as well, Brian Copans has certainly earned the respect that he gets, and his list of accomplishments is something for any dedicated Porsche Company to strive for. Saying that he is the only company who can correctly setup a differential, as well as intelligently discuss the differences between differentials, however, pretty arrogant Paul. I would certainly think that there are any number of time tested professionals out there that can offer these services, not just us here at GBox, and to be honest, I find your thoughts on this to be insulting not only to me personally, but to every builder out there who has put in the time.
Lastly here, I doubt that you will ever be able to admit that the GT products have real competition in the market place now. I fully expect that you will continue to cast negative comments on the competition, no matter who they are. Especially so when they are poised to take a great deal of attention away from you.
So be it. I will not continue to compare and contrast your delusions with reality any longer. This dialog has become non-productive and simply does not justify my spending any more time on it with you.
Warmest Regards to you all here and I appreciate your patience today with me.
Erik Johnson
GBox Sales Manager
(303) 440-8899 work
(303) 895-4828 cell
PS sorry the pic would not load.
First of all, as you very well know I have recommended and sold a great many of the GT differentials in the past, and have always held them to be one of the best differentials on the market. However, your view point of my sales ability has always been a biased one and some of your comments of the past certainly border on being bigoted, and self serving.
Had you been the one to develop this differential, (the OS Giken) and brought it to market, you would not be saying a thing about my comments. But due to the fact that another company has brought out some competition to you now, and due to the fact that I have been fortunate enough to have found this product, you now look to cast not only our company but also me personally and professionally into a poor light. Really? Do you really have nothing better to do in your retirement then to engage in this obvious smear campaign?
It should be noted here that I have nothing but respect for Paul Guard and Guard Transmission, but after having to deal with this for several years now, enough is enough.
I noticed that you refrained from talking too much about what the OS Giken actually brings to the table here. I am guessing that this is due to the fact that you really don't have much space here to criticize.
So let us you and me set the record straight for everyone here. Porsche street differential, as well as Porsche Motorsport differentials, until recently, have been using carbon as the primary friction material in their differentials for years and years. Of this I am sure you will agree, as your prior comments here said that you had in the past been rebuilding and upgrading these differentials with your more aggressive friction and plain plates, replacing the carbon ones.
This has since changed, Porsche now uses a Brass friction material that that is actually quite similar to their synchronizer material, (see pic) The reason behind this is two fold. With the addition of greater HP and Torque the past Carbon plates were simply not holding up under the stress, and maintaining a locked state during track application. This better friction material would allow the Porsche differential to increase it's grip without having the need to completely redesign the internals to allow for more plate internally. Here is the more important consideration though. The main reason for going to a brass friction material is to ensure that as the differential sheds material, which all differentials do a certain degree, that material does not work in a detrimental way to the rest of the gearbox. Brass is soft, and thereby does not create the same amount of detrimental particulate as say, a steel friction disc. As the brass is soft the risk of pushing materials, ie steel from the plain plates, and Moly from the friction discs, into the gear sets and bearings, is minimal.
Paul does make a very good observation here that a upgraded differential with a more aggressive friction material will allow for the differential to last a great deal longer, especially in a street application. His comment regarding a shop, presumably us here, offering a product, to our customers, that would be less versatile to their OEM LSD is almost laughable. Anyone who has done business with us here will attest to the point that we are a quality shop, with the highest levels of customer service and integrity. If anything here, I am trying to educate and share a product here that offers more durability and versatility, NOT less.
Regarding the number of plates in a LSD, and how that number effects the service interval and durability of a differential, I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this point. That you have not seen a differential's service interval increase with the reduction of plates, simply does not follow logical thought. By increasing the number of friction plates and plain plates in a differential, you effectively reduce the amount of work that the differential is required to do, you also reduce the amount of heat generated internally to the differential, due to the balance of work load throughout the greater number of clutches. A greater number of plates also increases the reliability and general operation of the differential to hold a greater amount of HP and Torque during track application.
Here is the real reason why the GT differential, as well as the Porsche Motorsport does not utilize more plates, they have not figured out a way to get the differential to release it's pressure once those plates have locked up to each other. This is the greatest advance that the OS Giken offers in their differential. The ramps on the OS Giken differential have counter springs that effectively allow the differential to re-open when the amount of torque is reduced to the differential. This is in my opinion, the advancement in mechanical differential operation that should be noted and is not available in any other differential. This allows for a very minimal amount of preload to be needed, which allows for greater feel and car control. The car does not need to have to overcome the locking effects of the differential, (which sheds metal and material in the process) when the car is not under heavy torque load.
This allow the car to turn in more accurately, and also allows the differential's durability to increase exponentially. It is effectively not having to continue to work against itself when there is no need, as when in a tight turn.
I would completely agree regarding the point made that no differential is going to be perfect for all users. This is one of things that really made the GT differential worth exploring. The multiple ramp angles cut on to the GT differential, gave the driver the ability to customize the diff to his or her own driving style. Guess what, the OS Giken is completely adjustable, as well.
Paul I will not even discuss with you the differences in our professional abilities, as this will never be something that you and I are ever going to see eye to eye on. The fact that you would even go there in this discussion does not become you.
The idea that the only company competent enough to educate a customer on their options, good, bad etc, as well as the costs involved, is BMC&G and Brian Copans, really says a lot about how you feel about the people that have purchased, installed, and recommended your products for so many years.
Now before this gets out of hand, as well, Brian Copans has certainly earned the respect that he gets, and his list of accomplishments is something for any dedicated Porsche Company to strive for. Saying that he is the only company who can correctly setup a differential, as well as intelligently discuss the differences between differentials, however, pretty arrogant Paul. I would certainly think that there are any number of time tested professionals out there that can offer these services, not just us here at GBox, and to be honest, I find your thoughts on this to be insulting not only to me personally, but to every builder out there who has put in the time.
Lastly here, I doubt that you will ever be able to admit that the GT products have real competition in the market place now. I fully expect that you will continue to cast negative comments on the competition, no matter who they are. Especially so when they are poised to take a great deal of attention away from you.
So be it. I will not continue to compare and contrast your delusions with reality any longer. This dialog has become non-productive and simply does not justify my spending any more time on it with you.
Warmest Regards to you all here and I appreciate your patience today with me.
Erik Johnson
GBox Sales Manager
(303) 440-8899 work
(303) 895-4828 cell
PS sorry the pic would not load.
10-27-2009, 09:56 PM
#17
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This is absolute insanity. While trying not to step too directly in the poo, I’ll again try to correct the inaccuracies that have been presented as facts.
Porsche Motorsports has never utilized carbon as the “primary friction material” in their LSDs. As I’ve said, only Porsche street LSDs (meant for street use only) utilize carbon friction discs. Furthermore, Porsche Motorsports has NOT recently gone to a brass friction disc. Only two years of Porsche street LSDs had brass friction discs … most recently one year of 996 street car production. (Porsche returned to a bonded carbon disc with the next year’s model.)
Porsche track (race) cars use upgraded friction discs from the MOTORSPORTS division … thus these discs are called “Motorsports” friction discs. The distinction between “Street” and “Motorsports” appears to have been muddled time and again, either out of ignorance, or to mislead the reader into believing that carbon has always been the standard for a Porsche racing disc. Once again with emphasis : Porsche’s Motorsports LSDs all use a more aggressive Motorsports friction disc, not a carbon (nor a brass) friction disc.
Porsche has always been open to different LSD designs, and the concept of fully unlocking the discs is nothing new. The use of the Drexler LSD by some Pro race teams is a prime example of this experimentation. Every one of our LSDs has a similar option, and in fact we had an experimental “Torque-Flow" flow LSD (that adjusted through a small window in the side cover) over five years ago. So to say that Porsche and Guard have been “unable to figure out how to do this” is absurd.
Regarding the versatility of an OE street LSD: These can normally be upgraded with Motorsports internals … 2, 4, 6, or 8 friction discs, any thickness of Belleville washers … even different ramp angles, if desired … how much more versatile can you get ? People can go to any shop they want to have these upgrades performed … I have no secrets, and there’s certainly no reason you “gotta call me”.
For the record (and dozens of customers from over the years can back me up on this): Whenever I learned that a potential customer (calling for one of our 4340 Chromoly units) already had a factory LSD (either “Street” or “Motorsports"), I always offered the FAR less expensive option of rebuilding their existing LSD. ALWAYS. EVERY TIME. I usually ended up selling one of our units, but not because of a hard sell on my part.
As for the suggestion that I only value the opinion of Brian Copans, or that my reference to BMC&G is somehow a slap in the face of all the other shops who have been loyal customers over the years … this is a sophomoric argument. Brian was the person installing all the various LSDs into the RSRs for testing … the guy making all the adjustments to all of those LSDs in the most comprehensive comparitive testing between the various LSDs ever performed … who else would I be referencing for the results of those tests ? Should I have pretended that I was privy to all of this inside information because I’m such a special guy?
All these soap box theatrics using words like “bigoted", “biased”, “self-serving", “obvious smear campaign”, “differences in our professional abilities”, “laughable”, “arrogant”, “delusions with reality” … OMG, man !! .. have you totally lost it ? The only reason I’m even here is because you stepped over the line when you proclaimed to the world that a GT LSD “does not hold a candle to (your) differential.” If you “didn’t want a pissing match", is this something you should be spouting? Did you think that just because I’m retired, I would have no comment ?
As for your “having to deal with this for several years now, enough is enough” … All I ever did was to once give you a mild scolding for breaking the rules that every other vendor follows on the Pelican board, and yet you’ve continued to bombard Pelican with your “sneak infomercials” (complete with glossy photos), with one as recently as two weeks ago. Why do you feel that you’re so superior, that the standard rules of conduct somehow don’t apply to you ?
All this stuff about me feeling threatened about the competition is ridiculous. I’m retired. In my last post I specifically suggested that someone in the market for an LSD should go to a shop that will intelligently balance what the customer’s needs are against what’s available … someone like Steve Weiner / Rothsport is just one example. They sell the same LSD that you’re promoting, but they remain objective toward ALL brands of LSD because their goal is long term customer satisfaction, not currying favor with a Master Distributor in order to win exclusivity of Porsche-specific product. None of this is to say that I don’t have respect for “your shop”. I have a great deal of respect for Stan. He’s a wonderful individual. I wouldn't mind seeing him get a more mature individual for the sales division.
Just so we understand one another … so long as you don’t reference a Guard/GT product (directly or veiled), or spout total inaccuracies about factory parts in any of your future infomercials, there’s no reason that you’d be reading a response from me again. Rennlisters are smart enough to sort through the BS on their own.
Paul Guard
______________
“Remember Jerry … it isn’t a lie, if you believe it.” George Castanza, Seinfeld
Porsche Motorsports has never utilized carbon as the “primary friction material” in their LSDs. As I’ve said, only Porsche street LSDs (meant for street use only) utilize carbon friction discs. Furthermore, Porsche Motorsports has NOT recently gone to a brass friction disc. Only two years of Porsche street LSDs had brass friction discs … most recently one year of 996 street car production. (Porsche returned to a bonded carbon disc with the next year’s model.)
Porsche track (race) cars use upgraded friction discs from the MOTORSPORTS division … thus these discs are called “Motorsports” friction discs. The distinction between “Street” and “Motorsports” appears to have been muddled time and again, either out of ignorance, or to mislead the reader into believing that carbon has always been the standard for a Porsche racing disc. Once again with emphasis : Porsche’s Motorsports LSDs all use a more aggressive Motorsports friction disc, not a carbon (nor a brass) friction disc.
Porsche has always been open to different LSD designs, and the concept of fully unlocking the discs is nothing new. The use of the Drexler LSD by some Pro race teams is a prime example of this experimentation. Every one of our LSDs has a similar option, and in fact we had an experimental “Torque-Flow" flow LSD (that adjusted through a small window in the side cover) over five years ago. So to say that Porsche and Guard have been “unable to figure out how to do this” is absurd.
Regarding the versatility of an OE street LSD: These can normally be upgraded with Motorsports internals … 2, 4, 6, or 8 friction discs, any thickness of Belleville washers … even different ramp angles, if desired … how much more versatile can you get ? People can go to any shop they want to have these upgrades performed … I have no secrets, and there’s certainly no reason you “gotta call me”.
For the record (and dozens of customers from over the years can back me up on this): Whenever I learned that a potential customer (calling for one of our 4340 Chromoly units) already had a factory LSD (either “Street” or “Motorsports"), I always offered the FAR less expensive option of rebuilding their existing LSD. ALWAYS. EVERY TIME. I usually ended up selling one of our units, but not because of a hard sell on my part.
As for the suggestion that I only value the opinion of Brian Copans, or that my reference to BMC&G is somehow a slap in the face of all the other shops who have been loyal customers over the years … this is a sophomoric argument. Brian was the person installing all the various LSDs into the RSRs for testing … the guy making all the adjustments to all of those LSDs in the most comprehensive comparitive testing between the various LSDs ever performed … who else would I be referencing for the results of those tests ? Should I have pretended that I was privy to all of this inside information because I’m such a special guy?
All these soap box theatrics using words like “bigoted", “biased”, “self-serving", “obvious smear campaign”, “differences in our professional abilities”, “laughable”, “arrogant”, “delusions with reality” … OMG, man !! .. have you totally lost it ? The only reason I’m even here is because you stepped over the line when you proclaimed to the world that a GT LSD “does not hold a candle to (your) differential.” If you “didn’t want a pissing match", is this something you should be spouting? Did you think that just because I’m retired, I would have no comment ?
As for your “having to deal with this for several years now, enough is enough” … All I ever did was to once give you a mild scolding for breaking the rules that every other vendor follows on the Pelican board, and yet you’ve continued to bombard Pelican with your “sneak infomercials” (complete with glossy photos), with one as recently as two weeks ago. Why do you feel that you’re so superior, that the standard rules of conduct somehow don’t apply to you ?
All this stuff about me feeling threatened about the competition is ridiculous. I’m retired. In my last post I specifically suggested that someone in the market for an LSD should go to a shop that will intelligently balance what the customer’s needs are against what’s available … someone like Steve Weiner / Rothsport is just one example. They sell the same LSD that you’re promoting, but they remain objective toward ALL brands of LSD because their goal is long term customer satisfaction, not currying favor with a Master Distributor in order to win exclusivity of Porsche-specific product. None of this is to say that I don’t have respect for “your shop”. I have a great deal of respect for Stan. He’s a wonderful individual. I wouldn't mind seeing him get a more mature individual for the sales division.
Just so we understand one another … so long as you don’t reference a Guard/GT product (directly or veiled), or spout total inaccuracies about factory parts in any of your future infomercials, there’s no reason that you’d be reading a response from me again. Rennlisters are smart enough to sort through the BS on their own.
Paul Guard
______________
“Remember Jerry … it isn’t a lie, if you believe it.” George Castanza, Seinfeld
10-28-2009, 04:16 PM
#18
Rennlisters are smart enough to sort through the BS on their own. I completely agree with you. As such I see no reason to discuss this with you further.
Have a good retirement Paul.
Erik Johnson
GBox Sales Manager
(303) 440-8899 work
(303) 895-4828 cell
Have a good retirement Paul.
Erik Johnson
GBox Sales Manager
(303) 440-8899 work
(303) 895-4828 cell
10-17-2011, 03:03 PM
#19
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From post #12:
“In the nine year that OS Giken has been making differentials, they have exactly ZERO failures. Now to make this completely understood, that is not just in their Porsche diffs, that is for ALL of their differentials across the board. … These differentials have shown no failure rate, even when put against 1100 HP engines.”
It’s been two years since the above claims were made. During that time, I’ve bit my tongue, learning of failure after failure. But now that over a dozen catastrophic failures (Turbo Porsches with about half the horsepower claimed above) have come to light, without a single report on Rennlist, it’s time to update this thread. I suspect the true numbers to be considerably higher, as a very good job done has been done of sweeping bad news under the rug. (The “redesigned & strengthened” version did NOT solve breakage issues).
Apparently, a fair number of these LSDs were handed out for free, in exchange for ad promotion. One such recipient was Eddie Bello who, after four catastrophic failures, has had zero success in pulling a blatantly outdated and misleading advertisement (featuring him) from the internet. “Free LSD” .. not so free when adding up the cost of collateral damage and/or repeated labor
“In the nine year that OS Giken has been making differentials, they have exactly ZERO failures. Now to make this completely understood, that is not just in their Porsche diffs, that is for ALL of their differentials across the board. … These differentials have shown no failure rate, even when put against 1100 HP engines.”
It’s been two years since the above claims were made. During that time, I’ve bit my tongue, learning of failure after failure. But now that over a dozen catastrophic failures (Turbo Porsches with about half the horsepower claimed above) have come to light, without a single report on Rennlist, it’s time to update this thread. I suspect the true numbers to be considerably higher, as a very good job done has been done of sweeping bad news under the rug. (The “redesigned & strengthened” version did NOT solve breakage issues).
Apparently, a fair number of these LSDs were handed out for free, in exchange for ad promotion. One such recipient was Eddie Bello who, after four catastrophic failures, has had zero success in pulling a blatantly outdated and misleading advertisement (featuring him) from the internet. “Free LSD” .. not so free when adding up the cost of collateral damage and/or repeated labor
