Question: maintenance of Cup vs. Clubsport
01-18-2018 | 12:31 AM
#1
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From: Texas Hill County
Question: maintenance of Cup vs. Clubsport
Would appreciate the wisdom of the experts on the forum. I understand that Cups are purpose-built race cars and have general maintenance/rebuild/replacement recommendations based on hours use on components such as the engine, transmission, axles, etc. On the flip side, the GT4 Clubsport is more directly derived from a street car and is described by many as having far less running cost than Cups, at least in part because there are no similar suggested rebuild/replace recommendations on the engine, transmission, etc.
So, my question is whether these differences are "real"? Is the Cup car engine really less robust than the GT4 motor, such that it requires a rebuild after 50 or 80 hours when the GT4 can go, what, maybe 50K miles before a rebuild? Same question could be asked about transmission (understand there may be a significant difference between a Cup sequential and an PDK). And, there are probably several other wear components on a Cup (axles, shifter cables, shocks, etc.) that don't get discussed regarding the cost of operating a GT4 Clubsport.
Are we kidding ourselves regarding the cost of operating a Clubsport? or, do they truly have a significantly lower operating cost? Appreciate your thoughts.
So, my question is whether these differences are "real"? Is the Cup car engine really less robust than the GT4 motor, such that it requires a rebuild after 50 or 80 hours when the GT4 can go, what, maybe 50K miles before a rebuild? Same question could be asked about transmission (understand there may be a significant difference between a Cup sequential and an PDK). And, there are probably several other wear components on a Cup (axles, shifter cables, shocks, etc.) that don't get discussed regarding the cost of operating a GT4 Clubsport.
Are we kidding ourselves regarding the cost of operating a Clubsport? or, do they truly have a significantly lower operating cost? Appreciate your thoughts.
01-18-2018 | 01:03 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Aug 2013
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From: North Jersey
caymans are lower cost, for sure. its not like $200/hour vs $3000/hour running costs. but its a really good chunk less. the couple most costly items just last longer on the Caymans. the tires, engines and tranmissions. they just last longer, presuming no issues. the new 991.2 cups go 100 hours on the engine and 80ish on the trans which significantly reduces the 991.2 cup costs. but having owned both and written checks for both...yeah, checks you write for a cayman are less than the cup by a reasonable margin.
and when you really whack something up, the checks for the cup get wild quickly. its a real difference. only you can decide how much more is it worth having a cup vs a cayman.
and when you really whack something up, the checks for the cup get wild quickly. its a real difference. only you can decide how much more is it worth having a cup vs a cayman.
01-19-2018 | 06:30 PM
#4
Racer
Joined: Jul 2015
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From: Pleasant Plains, IL
I consider myself a relative novice, so other opinions may be more valuable to you. However, I have found the maintenance expenses to be manageable even for someone of modest means like myself. I have not analyzed my categorized expenses for the last year (I'm afraid!), but maintenance and repairs (assuming no wreck) is not major expense in running a Clubsport. Other expenses, for example tires, are more burdensome.
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01-20-2018 | 06:36 PM
#8
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From: Montreal, Quebec
Originally Posted by spg993tt
strongest cayman i had was a very quick world challenge cayman, 3.4l dfi, etc. ran 54s at limerock. it just had less torque than the cups and youc ould get a few more sessions out of them. on the cups ive had, after 3ish sessions, the fallofff is a bunch, so you can of course keep running and get a ton more use out of them though not speed which isnt bad thing for learning either...but the cayman tires, same spec pretty much, stay about the same. costs are the same its about minutes you can get out of them before they degrade.
the other thing to consider is that, many can get away owning a cup or cayman without having to rebuild motors or transmissions. some call it deferred maintenance. and with no disrespect to most club racers, of which i consider myself one, they often defer maintence. they dont replace axles maybe till they go pop, wheel bearings, when is the last time you've seen a club guy replace control arms or fuel lines or the harness because its exceeded pmna time spec. and yet, ive known some great pro teams, some actually follow those things closely.
depending on the crash history, if you do the research, often buying a car come out of the great pro team if its been maintained could offer less surprise than buying from a club guy who didnt replace anything during their enjoyment of it.
i guess my point is...it also depends on the level of maintenance you want to incur voluntarily. there again, the cups are way more costly, parts are more costly, and hours are less.
i will say this...my world challenge cayman. maybe the most fun car i ever drove. ever. sometimes in the 997 cups or the gt3R, its so much speed, so much torque, that it steps across the line very quickly. sometimes, id get out of the way, wow'd, enthralled but exhausted and sometimes glad to be out of the cockpit. with the cayman, it was really fast, 54s at lrp is fast....but it just felt easier, was less stress, less anxiety, almost like a car you wanted to drive all day and never get out of.
so lots of costs and issues. both amazing machines. ultimately, you will love both. but, if you're worried at all about the dollars....go with the cayman. love it enjoy it. there will always be a cup ready to purchase and hammer.
the other thing to consider is that, many can get away owning a cup or cayman without having to rebuild motors or transmissions. some call it deferred maintenance. and with no disrespect to most club racers, of which i consider myself one, they often defer maintence. they dont replace axles maybe till they go pop, wheel bearings, when is the last time you've seen a club guy replace control arms or fuel lines or the harness because its exceeded pmna time spec. and yet, ive known some great pro teams, some actually follow those things closely.
depending on the crash history, if you do the research, often buying a car come out of the great pro team if its been maintained could offer less surprise than buying from a club guy who didnt replace anything during their enjoyment of it.
i guess my point is...it also depends on the level of maintenance you want to incur voluntarily. there again, the cups are way more costly, parts are more costly, and hours are less.
i will say this...my world challenge cayman. maybe the most fun car i ever drove. ever. sometimes in the 997 cups or the gt3R, its so much speed, so much torque, that it steps across the line very quickly. sometimes, id get out of the way, wow'd, enthralled but exhausted and sometimes glad to be out of the cockpit. with the cayman, it was really fast, 54s at lrp is fast....but it just felt easier, was less stress, less anxiety, almost like a car you wanted to drive all day and never get out of.
so lots of costs and issues. both amazing machines. ultimately, you will love both. but, if you're worried at all about the dollars....go with the cayman. love it enjoy it. there will always be a cup ready to purchase and hammer.
Track record is 55
You must have a strong world challenge car hehe!
Kidding aside
Cayman are very fast car in good hands, lot of time you will be faster than 3/4 of the cup field in corner.
On the straight, well its only a 3.4
01-20-2018 | 06:56 PM
#10
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From: Texas Hill County
Thanks for everyone's thoughts on this. I wasn't thinking tires or other consumables. And, I understand cup parts are more expensive. What I really didn't get was why a cup engine would need to be rebuilt at 60 (or whatever) hours and the Cayman wouldn't. I assume both would be pushed to the same extremes, which would create similar wear and tear. Same issue with suspension parts. Probably not same issue with transmission.
Good point about deferred maintenance vs. replacing everything at PMNA spec hours.
Clubsports seem to still be in short supply and are priced accordingly, while there are a bunch of 7.2 and a few 1.1 cups (many appear to be well maintained) priced $20-50K less. Hard decision.
Good point about deferred maintenance vs. replacing everything at PMNA spec hours.
Clubsports seem to still be in short supply and are priced accordingly, while there are a bunch of 7.2 and a few 1.1 cups (many appear to be well maintained) priced $20-50K less. Hard decision.
01-20-2018 | 08:01 PM
#11
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I guy in our club recently took delivery of a clubsport, he says 50,000 kms (31,000 miles) on the engine before needing rebuild. Cup car club racers are getting what, 200 hours? What does that equate to in miles? Say 20,000 miles? Both are loooong intervals.
All I hear about with cups is the engine interval being short, yet I hear of lots of cars running 10,000, 15,000 kms between rebuilds. I know of one car that had something like 18,000 kms on the motor and then ran a Nürburgring 24 hour. There was even one guy on this forum who ran 275 hours!
All I hear about with cups is the engine interval being short, yet I hear of lots of cars running 10,000, 15,000 kms between rebuilds. I know of one car that had something like 18,000 kms on the motor and then ran a Nürburgring 24 hour. There was even one guy on this forum who ran 275 hours!
01-21-2018 | 11:39 AM
#12
Race Car
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From: TX
I guy in our club recently took delivery of a clubsport, he says 50,000 kms (31,000 miles) on the engine before needing rebuild. Cup car club racers are getting what, 200 hours? What does that equate to in miles? Say 20,000 miles? Both are loooong intervals.
All I hear about with cups is the engine interval being short, yet I hear of lots of cars running 10,000, 15,000 kms between rebuilds. I know of one car that had something like 18,000 kms on the motor and then ran a Nürburgring 24 hour. There was even one guy on this forum who ran 275 hours!
All I hear about with cups is the engine interval being short, yet I hear of lots of cars running 10,000, 15,000 kms between rebuilds. I know of one car that had something like 18,000 kms on the motor and then ran a Nürburgring 24 hour. There was even one guy on this forum who ran 275 hours!
01-21-2018 | 12:27 PM
#13
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The Clubsport engine & gearbox are literally bulletproof*. Have had two 24H races in the CSMR (same car as CS just with diff. suspension, minor enduro features and weight savings) -- they just run and run. The TC and ESP electronics are very well done for learners**, so much that you can survive (some) race-ending FUBARs in other cars. And that's before you get to the advantage in the wet...
Can't say the same of the 997.x or 991.1 Cups. Taking delivery of the 991.2 in March for the regional Carrera Cup, can tell you how the actual vs. advertised maintenance costs stack up by season-end LOL...
Point on "deferred maintenance" is very very true. Everything on a racecar *must* be timed out. Don't chance an axle or wheel carrier change, even if the part seems to run fine at 150% spec hours. With the Cayman you have a much wider maintenance window: more street parts (2.7 Boxster PDK gearbox, 981 GT4 engine,) less wear/tear from lower speeds & g's hence nearly 2x-3x the lifing (if not longer) of say a 997 Cup.
*We did lose one race from a burst coolant expansion tank in the CS, apparently that's a known weak point. That aside, I have yet to hear of a bust engine or gearbox in any CS. Ask for a show of hands in the Cups and you'll have no end to the replies.
**I wouldn't campaign a CS without access to the factory laptop and software updates. The PDK and ABS settings are highly sensitive to wheel diameter and you really need that dialed in every race.
Can't say the same of the 997.x or 991.1 Cups. Taking delivery of the 991.2 in March for the regional Carrera Cup, can tell you how the actual vs. advertised maintenance costs stack up by season-end LOL...
Point on "deferred maintenance" is very very true. Everything on a racecar *must* be timed out. Don't chance an axle or wheel carrier change, even if the part seems to run fine at 150% spec hours. With the Cayman you have a much wider maintenance window: more street parts (2.7 Boxster PDK gearbox, 981 GT4 engine,) less wear/tear from lower speeds & g's hence nearly 2x-3x the lifing (if not longer) of say a 997 Cup.
*We did lose one race from a burst coolant expansion tank in the CS, apparently that's a known weak point. That aside, I have yet to hear of a bust engine or gearbox in any CS. Ask for a show of hands in the Cups and you'll have no end to the replies.
**I wouldn't campaign a CS without access to the factory laptop and software updates. The PDK and ABS settings are highly sensitive to wheel diameter and you really need that dialed in every race.
01-21-2018 | 01:42 PM
#14
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Thanks for everyone's thoughts on this. I wasn't thinking tires or other consumables. And, I understand cup parts are more expensive. What I really didn't get was why a cup engine would need to be rebuilt at 60 (or whatever) hours and the Cayman wouldn't. I assume both would be pushed to the same extremes, which would create similar wear and tear. Same issue with suspension parts. Probably not same issue with transmission.
Good point about deferred maintenance vs. replacing everything at PMNA spec hours.
Clubsports seem to still be in short supply and are priced accordingly, while there are a bunch of 7.2 and a few 1.1 cups (many appear to be well maintained) priced $20-50K less. Hard decision.
Good point about deferred maintenance vs. replacing everything at PMNA spec hours.
Clubsports seem to still be in short supply and are priced accordingly, while there are a bunch of 7.2 and a few 1.1 cups (many appear to be well maintained) priced $20-50K less. Hard decision.
01-22-2018 | 07:27 AM
#15
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Therein lies the truth, especially amateur cars. Engine and gearbox refresh thoughts posted here are generally nonsense...its a stock gt3 engine without variocam...if its got a blipper then the gearbox is usually in good shape. I had 17000km on a stock 07 for example,before blipper install. Ring and pinion is known to flake over time, skinny gears ie,pre 2011.5 cup sequential can also fail. If they've been updated to thick gears...Good to go...overrrevs 10500 and under, usually fine...loads of firsthand experience with loads of cups...I like cups...no safer racecar and no firewall,engine near my spine...Cayman is showing to be a great car however and I would do a factory race Cayman if I went that way.
Glen, are you saying you went 17,000km on the engine or the gearbox without overhaul?