CPO - How important is it?
Thread Starter
Track Day
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 21
Likes: 2
CPO - How important is it?
Ive been looking to buy a used Panamera 4S and there is almost a $10,000 difference between a CPO and non certified.
With a Panamera with less than 30,000 miles how important is CPO?
With a Panamera with less than 30,000 miles how important is CPO?
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,546
Likes: 1,312
From: Indiana
If planning to keep the car awhile then CPO is way to go. However, shouldn't be $10k difference. I have bought several Porsches where the CPO gets thrown in as part of deal. It's supposedly a cost of $2500 to do the CPO.
AutoX
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 13
Likes: 1
With a brand known for not being inexpensive, it was fairly high on my priority list to get CPO. One dealer told me it cost a few thou to have them CPO a vehicle with Porsche. I could have asked them to, but they were just going to pass along that cost to me (which I would have happily paid).
I'd be okay skipping on certification if either:
1) the car was less than 3 years old and had fewer than 30k mikes
2) I was keeping it for only a few years
I'd be okay skipping on certification if either:
1) the car was less than 3 years old and had fewer than 30k mikes
2) I was keeping it for only a few years
Drifting
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 30
From: Beautiful North Carolina
If you don't plan to put a bunch of miles on the car in the next few years, then it's probably not worth the money for the warranty.
HOWEVER... the idea of a CPO is that the car must pass their inspection criteria and be brought up-to-date on any missed services, tires must be within a certain spec and there can't be any serious accident damage (such as paint on more than two adjacent panels, etc.). Some cars (not all) that are not CPO'd fail one of more of these criteria. Or if the car isn't at a Porsche dealer, then of course it can't be CPO'd.
CPO is a great marketing tool and gives many buyers a sense of security, hence the higher price of the car (because they can get it).
To answer your question, it really depends on how many miles you plan to put on the car, how long you intend to keep it, and how much factory warranty remains. These can be very expensive cars to repair. But Porsches also tend to be very reliable and don't have a lot of common failure areas and problems as something like a BMW, for instance.
HOWEVER... the idea of a CPO is that the car must pass their inspection criteria and be brought up-to-date on any missed services, tires must be within a certain spec and there can't be any serious accident damage (such as paint on more than two adjacent panels, etc.). Some cars (not all) that are not CPO'd fail one of more of these criteria. Or if the car isn't at a Porsche dealer, then of course it can't be CPO'd.
CPO is a great marketing tool and gives many buyers a sense of security, hence the higher price of the car (because they can get it).
To answer your question, it really depends on how many miles you plan to put on the car, how long you intend to keep it, and how much factory warranty remains. These can be very expensive cars to repair. But Porsches also tend to be very reliable and don't have a lot of common failure areas and problems as something like a BMW, for instance.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 63
Likes: 2
CPO is no guarantee, the most important thing is a reputable dealer. I bought a CPO Panamera from Jim Ellis Porsche in 2012. It had been wrecked, the welds in the frame later failed and the front of the car broke off. The welds were grossly defective. That was 5 months ago. Neither Ellis or PCNA stood behind the car. Buyer be very aware.
Drifting
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 30
From: Beautiful North Carolina
My sympathies to you. Are you suing the dealer?
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 63
Likes: 2
MJBird993, here's the pictures:
photos & captionsFLAT.jpg
I have no choice but to sue. I'm out a lot of money to say the least. I'm still working on selecting an attorney, know anyone good?
photos & captionsFLAT.jpg
I have no choice but to sue. I'm out a lot of money to say the least. I'm still working on selecting an attorney, know anyone good?
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 815
Likes: 3
From: SC
Wow, so sorry you have to deal with this. Did the auto check report show no accident? I think that dealer uses autocheck. And they have a guarantee buy back. And I was actually going to buy a car from them! Guess I am going to buy new and from Hennessy.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 514
Likes: 5
From: Texas
Not sure what you can disclose to us.. but just curious why if the dealer denies any claims. Also hasn't Porsche chimed in to offer you a new car yet. This should be a no brainer. Also are you stuck paying the for this car while this is ongoing?
It shouldn't require you to have to hire a lawyer for them to come some satisfactory arrangement.
It shouldn't require you to have to hire a lawyer for them to come some satisfactory arrangement.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 37
Well, reading that a CPO car can "end" this way is scary :
What about : "Porsche Approved Certified Pre-Owned vehicles are inspected by factory trained technicians who conduct a 100+ point mechanical and visual inspection, using original Porsche parts. Each vehicle must pass this rigorous inspection before it can be eligible for enrollment into the Porsche Approved Program."
Did the tech guy that conducted the 100 (+) point rigorous inspection ..was blind ???
What about : "Porsche Approved Certified Pre-Owned vehicles are inspected by factory trained technicians who conduct a 100+ point mechanical and visual inspection, using original Porsche parts. Each vehicle must pass this rigorous inspection before it can be eligible for enrollment into the Porsche Approved Program."
Did the tech guy that conducted the 100 (+) point rigorous inspection ..was blind ???
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 63
Likes: 2
DISDEN: The one good thing is the applicable Lemon Laws allow for the recovery of legal fees.
DRJMK: Unfortunately it seems accidents don't have to be reported until a car is titled. So my understanding is demo cars get a pass. This has been a very eye opening experience. Ellis did disclose that a "curb had been rubbed"- their choice of words. Outside of that, I have only gotten conflicting information from Ellis.
BoxsterG: PCNA acknowledged the defective welds and it seemed like all would work out initially, but after 2 months of constant haggling with them, it was obvious I was wasting my effort.
....
I am astounded they didn't stand behind something as serious as this problem. I know others have had a tough time getting replacement vehicles when a clear manufacturing defect was involved. One of the recent ones was in California with the center locking hub problem on the GT3 (that poor soul lost a wheel during a DE). If you look on salvage auction websites you'll likely find other Panameras that appear to have failed in the same location as mine. I have come across quite a few Panamera photos that look suspiciously familiar on those. If your having hanlding problems or excessive tire wear, you should get your car checked. Aluminum is much more challenging to weld effectively than steel so its quite possible this is not a problem unique to one car. I think that may have something to do with PCNA actions so far. One of the conflicts with PCNA was my wanting them to make sure other Panamera owners weren't at risk. Also I had injuries too and that has complicated things a bit as well.
Thanks all for the supportive comments!
DRJMK: Unfortunately it seems accidents don't have to be reported until a car is titled. So my understanding is demo cars get a pass. This has been a very eye opening experience. Ellis did disclose that a "curb had been rubbed"- their choice of words. Outside of that, I have only gotten conflicting information from Ellis.
BoxsterG: PCNA acknowledged the defective welds and it seemed like all would work out initially, but after 2 months of constant haggling with them, it was obvious I was wasting my effort.
....
I am astounded they didn't stand behind something as serious as this problem. I know others have had a tough time getting replacement vehicles when a clear manufacturing defect was involved. One of the recent ones was in California with the center locking hub problem on the GT3 (that poor soul lost a wheel during a DE). If you look on salvage auction websites you'll likely find other Panameras that appear to have failed in the same location as mine. I have come across quite a few Panamera photos that look suspiciously familiar on those. If your having hanlding problems or excessive tire wear, you should get your car checked. Aluminum is much more challenging to weld effectively than steel so its quite possible this is not a problem unique to one car. I think that may have something to do with PCNA actions so far. One of the conflicts with PCNA was my wanting them to make sure other Panamera owners weren't at risk. Also I had injuries too and that has complicated things a bit as well.
Thanks all for the supportive comments!
Drifting
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 30
From: Beautiful North Carolina
Wow. So you are speculating that the poor welds were from the factory, not from the accident repair? That is scary.
It's possible that not all the facts are known and even if they are all known, I understand that you might not want to post everything on the Internet, and I don't blame you a bit. Best of luck to you. Keep us posted, best that you can.
I've done buybacks on BMWs, and they are pretty good about that when there's a clear case of a car that just can't be fixed to the customer's satisfaction. I have no idea how Porsche does. Of course, given the huge profit margin that they have, you'd think that they could step up here and do the right thing - assuming, of course, that they were at fault.
Ick.
To the original poster, if you haven't run away screaming yet, odds are that this car (from PV=nRT) is the exception rather than the rule. Don't worry about it too much. Although... if buying a used Panamera, it might be a good idea to have those welds inspected... just in case.
It's possible that not all the facts are known and even if they are all known, I understand that you might not want to post everything on the Internet, and I don't blame you a bit. Best of luck to you. Keep us posted, best that you can.
I've done buybacks on BMWs, and they are pretty good about that when there's a clear case of a car that just can't be fixed to the customer's satisfaction. I have no idea how Porsche does. Of course, given the huge profit margin that they have, you'd think that they could step up here and do the right thing - assuming, of course, that they were at fault.
Ick.
To the original poster, if you haven't run away screaming yet, odds are that this car (from PV=nRT) is the exception rather than the rule. Don't worry about it too much. Although... if buying a used Panamera, it might be a good idea to have those welds inspected... just in case.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 37
Well, "sleeping over it", I wake up and have the following feeling :
This is pretty horrible.
I would like to call for the comments of our moderators here, as, personally I feel that one of the power of a Forum like ours, could be to provide a strong Porsche Customers defense, by taking this extremely bad behavior into very high visibility, but, for sure, before doing so, we should have an insurance that the case is exactly as exposed.
In my view it is very important, as with this particular example, CPO means not more than the BS of a 3rd class salesman.
..Pretty awful for the brand.
This is pretty horrible.
I would like to call for the comments of our moderators here, as, personally I feel that one of the power of a Forum like ours, could be to provide a strong Porsche Customers defense, by taking this extremely bad behavior into very high visibility, but, for sure, before doing so, we should have an insurance that the case is exactly as exposed.
In my view it is very important, as with this particular example, CPO means not more than the BS of a 3rd class salesman.
..Pretty awful for the brand.