Sam CS 05

For me it's a definite possibility if Panamera turns out to be as functional & as much fun to drive as my Cayenne. We need a fast family (of 4) car after all...

Luckily, i still have my 996 Twin Turbo for some authentic P experience.
(just making sure the purists are also happy)

Sam

rombrigs

Nope, going to keep it as a beater car. Thanks to the gas prices last year and the economy this year, it's pretty much worthless now.

-Roger

PogueMoHone

Great question!

I am leaving it up to my wife, whether to buy the Panamera on a new Cayenne.

If it were up to me I'd do the Panamera.... but I don't do the shopping!

Carrera GT

The Definitive Comparison Guide to Not Buying the Panamera


"Round One: Feature, Function, Benefit"
My Cayenne Power Kit Turbo has more power and load space, 7700 pounds towing versus 6000 in the Panamera, seating for five (vs. four) plus off-road capabilities and air suspension to lift itself up for driving in deep snow or dealing with those absurdly steep driveway angles you find in city parking garages, etc.
Round One Score:
Cayenne Wins 7 Points: Power, Cargo, Space, Towing, Seating, Off-road, Ground Clearance
Panamera 0 Points.

"Round Two: Behind the wheel"
After throwing around the Panamera 4S at the Quail event -- more than half an hour on a winding mountain road with great turns and good asphalt -- I'm sure it's a fun car for spirited driving, but I don't buy into the idea that a heavy four-seater is the car for drivers to really enjoy.

The Cayenne has PDCC (of course, it's only in recent year models and it's not free) but a GTS with PDCC offers a manual 6 spd gearbox... The manual gearbox is a win for on-road fun and offroad driving (Transsyberia) and utility (roll start after a dead battery f'rinstance.) The Pana comes with the appeal of PDK (not yet in the Cayenne) plus the "nice to have" plus of ultimate handling limits (if the driver can meet the challenge) as well as a higher top speed and shorter braking distance.

Round Two Score:
Cayenne Wins 1 Point: Manual gearbox option.
Panamera Wins 5 Points: Extreme handling limits, PDK, top speed, acceleration and braking distances.

Round Three: "Value"
I don't think anyone is suggesting the Panamera will be cost effective motoring, so there's little point in beating it up on purchase price and depreciation, but for my two cents', I'd say it's better to get an '08 Cayenne and Carrera S! Factoring in two leases and two insurance and registration hits, the two cars combined could still cost less than the Panamera! : ) If not, go to an '06 Cayenne Turbo S and Carrera S. For the purposes of this comparison, I'd say it's fair to include present day aggressive discounting on the Cayenne and Carrera versus the introduction of the Panamera, which surely the corporate strategists at Porsche will not allow deep discounting until they're really sure their backs are against the wall and this dog won't hunt.

Round Three Score:
Cayenne wins 2 : Purchase price, depreciation.
Panamera: 0 Points.

Final Score:
Cayenne: 10.
Panamera: 5.

Still, if you've done a thorough comparison and driven them all at length and you're unimpressed with the 2010 luxo-barge offerings from BMW and Mercedes (or even Lexus or Infiniti or Audi or VW) then I imagine the Panamera could be a spicy novelty and a distinctive car.


Post Script:

My conclusion and decision (for my needs and criteria) is to replace the Cayenne with a Bio Benz GL350 Bluetec. The diesel Benz has ample power and considerably more load space than the Cayenne. Doing back-to-back driving going from my 520+ hp Cayenne to a new Cayenne Turbo to the most powerful Benz to the diesel Benz, my wife and I agreed that there was no sense of lacking performance in the diesel Benz -- what it clearly lacked in ground-stomping power and top speed, it completely disguised with the irresistible force of turbo diesel torque and a silky smooth 7 spd automatic.

The Benz tows the same trailer capacity as the Cayenne, but with a longer wheelbase (more stability towing and safer under brakes) and has more load space with a functional third row of seats to keep kids, luggage and dogs separate.

The Benz Bluetec can run bio-diesel blend, it's considerably more fuel efficiency for longer range between refills and diesel is presently cheaper than "premium" unleaded fuel (around Northern California.) Diesel is even a few pennies cheaper than "Regular" gas according to the "Gas Buddy" Web site:

http://www.sanfrangasprices.com/inde...?area=Woodside

Regular $3.19
Premium $3.45
Diesel $3.15

And the "squeeze-bang" Benz owners are reporting 25-30 mpg real world.

The Tangible Intangibles.
The Benz also has the latest amenities (like ventilated seats and gazillion-way adjustable seat cushions) plus some features which I find particularly valuable that Porsche does not offer, such as the Distronic radar automatic cruise control, which will apply the brakes quicker than human reflexes if the driver in front panics. Distronic will also deal with the tedium of slow-n-go traffic automatically slowing and accelerating to keep a safe distance behind the car in front or braking if a driver cuts in front -- so my old snow-skiing, water-skiing and bike-riding knees can take a break during the 200 mile drive from San Francisco to Lake Tahoe to let me keep destroying my knees every weekend ...

So there you have it: The Definitive Comparison Guide to Not Buying the Panamera.

Epilogue.
A few years hence, assuming battery technology has advanced in leaps and bounds to be smaller, denser, lighter, robust and convenient; electricity is now a free resource (generated from heat and wind) delivered as an environmental necessity to do whatever it takes to stop people burning oil, gas and coal.

Porsche delivers the pure electric Panamera and they make the radical redesign (just as they went from the 996 to the 997) along with all manner of incremental enhancements.

Personally. Subjectively. Most of a decade from now. I could see myself as an older man preferring to drive a pure electric four door sedan that accommodates a less active lifestyle, where the golf clubs take precedence over the snowboard and the catamaran takes over from the kiteboard. But I'm not there yet and Porsche hasn't built that car. There's still hope for us both! : )

PogueMoHone

^
Sounds like you should have thought about it a little more. (j/k)

Definitive for you, for sure. But with a less active lifestyle and no need for third row seats, space for snowboards or golf clubs, etc.. there are other definitive answers.

Maybe the new Cayenne will narrow the driving the experience between it and the Panamera, but the Panamera/Cayenne (non turbo) comparison is not even close. Since neither of us have driven the Panamera Turbo yet..I think a little more wait and see is in order before I'd go awarding points on that score versus the Cayenne Turbo. On the PDK I agree it would be good to see it in the Cayenne if it is robust enough. I think it speaks volumes that Porsche would not put it the Cayenne since it can't handle the torque, and it gives me confidence that they don't "over stretch" practicality and functionality for marketing purposes in other areas either.

I do agree that price is irrelevant for purposes of comparison; as is the towing capacity of the Benz and Cayenne...neither is a "proper" towing vehicle, so they share that with the Panamera (imo).

The reason, in favor of the Cayenne, that I can't "rationalize" away is that my wife likes the "high up" driving position.

Isn't it fun that we all get to make our own "definitives" and answers.

Mine is a "rematch". New Cayenne to new Panamera.. if I "must" wait.

Carrera GT

I missed something? : )
Regardless of lifestyle, I was pointing out feature, function, benefit linkages.
(Of course, I put "definitive" to be clear that there is no definitive comparison and the whole world is a subjective existential trip)
I think PDK isn't in the Cayenne because the solution is not to make PDK tow, but to make the Cayenne tow (with an electric traction motor to handle the standing starts and pulling the boat out of the water, etc.) For a version 1.0, PDK is marvelous. Even if they had to put a viscous coupling on the input with a lock-up just for torque multiplication, they could afford the weight penalty in the Cayenne. For that matter, they could build a dual clutch high-low ratio transfer case that could slip in and out of a low range and toggle between clutch packs to absorb heat and wear ... a 14 speed PDK ... : )
I don't mean to say price is irrelevant, I mean to say that the Cayenne trounces the Panamera on price, there's no point in arguing the case. All three cars are entirely proper and legitimate tow vehicles regardless of there being hulking pickups and Excursions and the like capable of heavier loads. All three cars sell the feature of towing capacity. Each of my comparison points is meant to be pragmatic, not subjective. The question is to compare the cars, not to attempt to judge them by arbitrary measures of applicability to a given task or their subjective appeal to a given lifestyle.
Rationalization or not, if someone feels the subjective sense of safety or they experience a more tangible sense of being better in control, driving with a "commanding view" (as Land Rover would say) then great. I agree that for my interests of secondary safety -- when moving the whole family around, we often use an '05 diesel Excursion -- being a couple of feet above the fray is appealing and being several thousand pounds heavier makes for favorable results in the physics of inelastic collisions. : )
I found it an entertaining exercise to go back over my own score card on the comparison of the features without applying my own applications or circumstances. When I ordered the GL, it was based purely on enjoying driving the car and having owned every other SUV, unless Ford came out and built 2010 Excursion, there's no competitor to hold a candle to the GL320/350 diesel. Ford has rumored of putting a diesel in the Expedition (and F150 for a couple of years now) but I am tired of waiting. The Cayenne did not appeal in '03 but in the Turbo body with the factory body kit, it's "grown" on me. Now, after 20K +/- miles, much as I enjoy the 500+ hp and license-shredding limitless acceleration, I'm ready for something with a better "score."
If this is a rematch for you, when or what was the first match? You've already gone to a "new" Cayenne or you're waiting on another update to the 2010 models?
For the Cayenne, I think I've seen spy pics of it with the Nokia phone console (Panamera) which is less garish in person, but still pretty dreadful. If they don't redesign the seats to take up less space and the rear seats to fold effectively, I think the Cayenne interior will continue to be a shortcoming for an SUV even if they do upgrade the cabin plastics from their current "New York Taxi Cab" appearance.
Subjectively, I think Porsche just isn't targeting me in their early adopter Panamera demographic bullseye. They want people (who don't exist in any useful populous segment in any market today) willing to spend US$150K on a family sports sedan and they need good numbers of people spending "up" from a Benz or BMW brand or across from a Maserati or Bentley. I think the GT2 "proved" the Porsche brand (in the US) is not able to support prices north of $150K. Even the RS will sell to only a couple of hundred hard core enthusiasts (and reckless speculators.) I don't see where Porsche is expecting the volume of demand.

Where I can go to any given venue or facility around Silicon Valley and park with half a dozen new 911's and another half dozen new Cayennes in the parking lot, I don't see a new 7 or 5 or S or E, let alone the ones dripping with shiny visible adornments or loaded with unseen high dollar options and froufrou. I'd be curious to see the sales for the luxo sports sedans year to date. I think Porsche is setting up to fish a dry creek bed. How are Euro sales?

With the Cayenne, while I think we greeted the car with disdain for it being ungainly and generally mediocre, I don't think anyone doubted that Porsche was right to look at the SUV in the garage next to the 911 and see their opportunity. With the Panamera, not only is the car ungainly and mediocre, I don't see the market opportunity to oust the 5 Series or E Class at a premium to get into an "entry level" Panamera, let alone the premium to get into a Panamera Turbo (visually indistinguishable from the base model that Porsche will surely introduce to fill in below the Panamera S.)

I see the individual franchise dealers of BMW and Benz going straight to aggressive discounting to "suck the air out of the room" for the Panamera arrival. And the last nine months of unprecedented discounting in this recession has already exhausted demand, which I don't see being replenished until the economy resurfaces.

All that said, I think any dealership that has all three brands will be well positioned. I mean, if a buyer comes with tentative interest in the Panamera but decides to go with BMW or Mercedes, a dealer holding all three brands will have the "cake and eat it" advantage of creating awareness (Porsche promoting the new Panamera) and generating demand (conquest sales incentives and the facility to manage the trade-ins that will surely bolster their flagging primary market sales) as well as being able to conclude with a sale into one of those three brands by a path of discounting or features or comparison shopping. And if the buyer were actually to go off and buy a Lexus or Infiniti, well, people make mistakes all the time! : )

ricster

WOW....All you people really over think everthing. If you like it and it hits all the check boxes...you buy it. Everyone here seems to disect the fun out of cars

Carrera GT

Please post pics when you pick up your loaded Panamera Turbo.

(And I don't think "everyone here" would appreciate being tarred with the same brush when it comes to a couple of "wall of words" posts from one person.)

ricster

Which color Panamera Turbo do you want me to post?....my inbound black on black or white over expresso.

JohnnyBahamas

Put the better part of 1000 miles on the Cayenne tt S this past weekend. The Cayenne unequivocally DOMINATED the road. 395 south over 8100 foot pass above Mono lake? CA-14 two lane across the high desert? Sunset Blvd in West Hollywoodd? Bottomless passing power, gigantic braking power, epic handling grip, and as smooth and comfortable a ride as could be had on some of the crappiest freeway surfaces in the industrialized world. The Cayenne turbo S DOMINATED.

When some knucklehead's mini weber grill flew out of the back of his over loaded, unsecured pickup truck bed and fate aimed the ball of flying pieces right at the Cayenne on the second bounce off the surface of I-5 northbound at the Wasco exit and I was forced to go into the median at 75 mph to miss the cloud of steel? The Cayenne turbo S DOMINATED the situation. (The Acura TL behind me did not fair so well.)

Returned up I-5 through the central valley of CA through Sacratomato back into 26 degree exterior temps at 7000 feet and freakin' four inches of snow? The Cayenne turbo S DOMINATED.

I will ADD at Panamera to the stable. The Cayenne turbo S stays.

ps - Black on black with black birch trim and thermal glass... and a V1!

Carrera GT

Where was the snow? Presumably the four inches weren't accumulating on the road, but what tires?

JohnnyBahamas

Snow on US-50 from below Twin Bridges all the way up Echo Summit and down through South Lake all the way to Glenbrook. Wet and heavy Sierra cement.

Performance summer tires. At 26 degrees it might have helped a LITTLE that I slowed to 35mph... but still the Cayenne DOMINATED.

rome

+1

Cayenne S/TT is the best all around vehicle on the planet. Period.

Targa Tim

Took my club coupe in for service yesterday, and found out that the dealer has a Panamera S press car that just arrived.

Looked and sat inside the car. Not allowed to drive or take pictures.

It has been said before, car definitely looks better in person. Driving position is sporty, comfortable, and you're surrounded with buttons. Rear seat is great. I'm 6 feet and I'm no where close to the ceiling. The individual bucket at the rear is the same as the front, that means good supportive seating.

The trunk is a big disappointment. It is small and shallow. Smaller than the Cayenne trunk with its cover on. Much smaller than trunk of most mid size sedan.

Being a 4 seaters, the base price of 4S costs more than my Cayenne Turbo.

So answering Sam's question, I definitely will NOT replace my CTT with any Panamera.

May wait for the V6 version to get for my wife, or wait for the facelift BMW 5 series, or new Cayenne.

BuddyG

Ok so what you are saying is your Cayenne

DOMINATED?

I wasn't real sure if that was what you were saying.