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Potential purchase pricing advice

 
Old 03-05-2019, 02:21 PM
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GoBlue!
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Default Potential purchase pricing advice (major update)

Bitten by the Porsche bug with my Macan Turbo, I am now considering adding a Panamera Turbo/Turbo S Sport Turismo to the stable. I am looking to solicit thoughts on a couple different options

1) Used Turbo S are now approaching low-to-mid 160s for a highly optioned car. For example one of the western dealers has a 2018 CPO $230 car in the mid-$160s with ~9k miles. I am sure that others can be found since these high spec cars don’t seem to be moving and thus are taking a big depreciation hit. Most PTTs STs are higher priced but I think the market will drive these down to the $160s over the near-term and already some evidence of that happening
2) Mid-optioned new 2018 PTT STs are being had with 30k discount, so mid $140s. Used 18 PTT STs seem to be priced in this range too

Here are a couple things of consideration

1) This is going to be a family hauler (2 mid-aged kids) but we will keep our large high mile Infiniti SUV for towing and hauling furniture, etc. as well as keep the Macan for my DD
2) Going to use the car to cart around my 2 golden retrievers occasionally if I can keep them confined to the rear wagon area. Am I giving up a lot of space with the hybrid? I have not seen the hybrid ST and the PTT ST side-by-side
3) Though the extra HP and torquein the PEHV is nice, I am not a greenie so wont get any “feel good” value out of the PEHV. However a big benefit will be the Car Connect pre-heat ability, as well as extended range and ability to go all electric part of the time
4) We put on at least 20k MI/yr so low mile CPO or any configuration has high appeal given the warranty and the fact that we tend to keep cars for 5+ years
5) Car will see 2-4 DE days a year. I am sure either configuration will be more than adequate and both the PTT and TTS will be much more sporty than my Macan

So basically I can use some input on the following: Is a mid-to-low 160s PTTs e-Hybrid like the example above a screaming deal or is a new or new but CPO (i.e. 500 miles or less) PTT where the value is at right now? I have found a couple of almost-there new old-inventory PTTs but then it comes down to must-have missing options or color to kill the deal. I am sure there is a very close PTT out there somewhere. The PTTs higher configuration tends to have all the options I would want and more nice to have but perhaps I would not spec (for example Burmester)


Update in post #22

Last edited by GoBlue!; 07-02-2019 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 03-05-2019, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by GoBlue! View Post
Bitten by the Porsche bug with my Macan Turbo, I am now considering adding a Panamera Turbo/Turbo S Sport Turismo to the stable. I am looking to solicit thoughts on a couple different options

1) Used Turbo S are now approaching low-to-mid 160s for a highly optioned car. For example one of the western dealers has a 2018 CPO $230 car in the mid-$160s with ~9k miles. I am sure that others can be found since these high spec cars don’t seem to be moving and thus are taking a big depreciation hit. Most PTTs STs are higher priced but I think the market will drive these down to the $160s over the near-term and already some evidence of that happening
2) Mid-optioned new 2018 PTT STs are being had with 30k discount, so mid $140s. Used 18 PTT STs seem to be priced in this range too

Here are a couple things of consideration

1) This is going to be a family hauler (2 mid-aged kids) but we will keep our large high mile Infiniti SUV for towing and hauling furniture, etc. as well as keep the Macan for my DD
2) Going to use the car to cart around my 2 golden retrievers occasionally if I can keep them confined to the rear wagon area. Am I giving up a lot of space with the hybrid? I have not seen the hybrid ST and the PTT ST side-by-side
3) Though the extra HP and torquein the PEHV is nice, I am not a greenie so wont get any “feel good” value out of the PEHV. However a big benefit will be the Car Connect pre-heat ability, as well as extended range and ability to go all electric part of the time
4) We put on at least 20k MI/yr so low mile CPO or any configuration has high appeal given the warranty and the fact that we tend to keep cars for 5+ years
5) Car will see 2-4 DE days a year. I am sure either configuration will be more than adequate and both the PTT and TTS will be much more sporty than my Macan

So basically I can use some input on the following: Is a mid-to-low 160s PTTs e-Hybrid like the example above a screaming deal or is a new or new but CPO (i.e. 500 miles or less) PTT where the value is at right now? I have found a couple of almost-there new old-inventory PTTs but then it comes down to must-have missing options or color to kill the deal. I am sure there is a very close PTT out there somewhere. The PTTs higher configuration tends to have all the options I would want and more nice to have but perhaps I would not spec (for example Burmester)

I just purchased a new old 2018 PTT ST after getting a deal I couldn't refuse on a car spec'd almost exactly as I would've ordered. Salient details:
-$182k MSRP
-$30k discount on purchase price
-dealer ate $11-12k in negative equity on my trade in (a leased Volvo)
-dealer ate $2500 in round trip car transport (PTT ST to me, Volvo back to them)
-I saved the sales tax on the portion of the purchase price allotted to the Volvo trade in, even though I didn't pay that myself (approx $3500 savings)
-I avoided a looming $5k penalty for going over on my miles (I was averaging 15k+/year on a 10k mi/year lease)

I just couldn't say no, and truly wanted the PTT ST in the first place, so...

Now onto your situation and questions. All else equal, I'd get a new old car vs a (slightly) used car in order to get the full 4/50 warranty. To your questions/points:

1) We also have a Land Rover Discovery as the primary hauler. It's a good combo with the PTT ST.
2) Can't comment on the space you give up in the hybrid, but I can say that my 45 pound Aussie fits in the back no problem. Two goldens might be a little tight. Maybe a local dealer will let you see how they'd fit?
3) I agree that the added benefits of the hybrid are real, I just couldn't get there on price. That said, the PTT provides more than ample performance for me.
4) The Porsche warranty can be extended to 7/85k. You'd have to go 3rd party to get beyond that. 20k mi/year for 5+ years in your case makes me lean that much more toward new, in order to get the full factory warranty.
5) Don't know what a DE day is?

I don't think you can go wrong regardless, but, at this price range I would definitely not go without any options you definitely want. I would however accept options I didn't especially want (in my case I got things like soft close doors and electric rear window shades, and they're "fine" but could do without them). I know that going through Cargurus and the like, searching inventory, etc. is a hassle, especially when you really need to have the dealers send you the build sheets since those sites don't make it easy to parse the specific builds...but it's worth the time.

Good luck regardless and keep us posted!
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Old 03-05-2019, 03:06 PM
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Thanks pokingaround for your thoughts. You got a very nice deal. Congrats!

for clarity, a CPO warranty adds 2 years and unlimited miles so a CPO 18 model would have about 5 more years/unlimited warranty or cover up to early 2024 under warranty depending on when the original warranty was punched. The way I would look at a CPO vs new is about 1 year extra warranty but unlimited miles which would take me to over 100k under warranty.


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Old 03-05-2019, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by GoBlue! View Post
Thanks pokingaround for your thoughts. You got a very nice deal. Congrats!

for clarity, a CPO warranty adds 2 years and unlimited miles so a CPO 18 model would have about 5 more years/unlimited warranty or cover up to early 2024 under warranty depending on when the original warranty was punched. The way I would look at a CPO vs new is about 1 year extra warranty but unlimited miles which would take me to over 100k under warranty.


Thanks! And yes sorry now I see. I wasn't thinking through the CPO/warranty aspect correctly. In that case, I'd get a car - either PTT or Turbo e-Hybrid - built closest to how you want it, and press the dealer on price as hard as humanly possible. I was lucky in that my deal had a lot of moving parts which allowed savings and benefits to accrue to me in ways that extended beyond simple price reduction. Maybe if you traded your Macan and made the Panamera your DD you'd have another point of leverage?
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Old 03-05-2019, 05:57 PM
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I just purchased a new 2018, heavily options PTT ST, MSRP 188 for 170 less a fair trade in for my 2013 Cayenne GTS with 90,000 miles so net was 146,000. There are a few 2018 ST still available in South Florida, but only with mid to low level of options with MSRP in the 165 to 175 range.

I have two Chesapeake Bay retrievers (85 and 80 pounds) which fit in the back with the rear seat folded down. It almost the same fit as in the Cayenne, although a few inches narrower. Height and length are fine, for longer trips I purchased the roof racks for luggage. The ST drives much better than the Cayenne, no body roll and is a lot faster, I feel the Turbo is fast enough and the Turbo S is not needed. On the S you loose the space on the sides under the fenders. My dealer had a Turbo S, but I could not see the benefit. To much complexity with two drive systems and a lot of extra weight. While I do not take it on a track, the car is incredible. I would be interested in seeing how fast it really is. Some say it is faster than the 3.4 stated in the material
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Old 03-05-2019, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by pokingaround View Post
5) Don't know what a DE day is?

!
DE is high performance driver's ed. offered though porsche club of america PCA local chapters. Basically taking the car out on the race track for high speed driving but not a full race with passing, etc.
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Old 03-06-2019, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by pokingaround View Post
I just purchased a new old 2018 PTT ST after getting a deal I couldn't refuse on a car spec'd almost exactly as I would've ordered. Salient details:
-$182k MSRP
-$30k discount on purchase price
-dealer ate $11-12k in negative equity on my trade in (a leased Volvo)
-dealer ate $2500 in round trip car transport (PTT ST to me, Volvo back to them)
-I saved the sales tax on the portion of the purchase price allotted to the Volvo trade in, even though I didn't pay that myself (approx $3500 savings)
-I avoided a looming $5k penalty for going over on my miles (I was averaging 15k+/year on a 10k mi/year lease)

I just couldn't say no, and truly wanted the PTT ST in the first place, so...

Now onto your situation and questions. All else equal, I'd get a new old car vs a (slightly) used car in order to get the full 4/50 warranty. To your questions/points:

1) We also have a Land Rover Discovery as the primary hauler. It's a good combo with the PTT ST.
2) Can't comment on the space you give up in the hybrid, but I can say that my 45 pound Aussie fits in the back no problem. Two goldens might be a little tight. Maybe a local dealer will let you see how they'd fit?
3) I agree that the added benefits of the hybrid are real, I just couldn't get there on price. That said, the PTT provides more than ample performance for me.
4) The Porsche warranty can be extended to 7/85k. You'd have to go 3rd party to get beyond that. 20k mi/year for 5+ years in your case makes me lean that much more toward new, in order to get the full factory warranty.
5) Don't know what a DE day is?

I don't think you can go wrong regardless, but, at this price range I would definitely not go without any options you definitely want. I would however accept options I didn't especially want (in my case I got things like soft close doors and electric rear window shades, and they're "fine" but could do without them). I know that going through Cargurus and the like, searching inventory, etc. is a hassle, especially when you really need to have the dealers send you the build sheets since those sites don't make it easy to parse the specific builds...but it's worth the time.

Good luck regardless and keep us posted!
I came across the website https://vinanalytics.com/.

Very useful when comparing options on used cars. You can just paste VIN # and it gives you detailed build sheet. Not 100% accurate but close enough.
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Old 03-06-2019, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by GoBlue! View Post
DE is high performance driver's ed. offered though porsche club of america PCA local chapters. Basically taking the car out on the race track for high speed driving but not a full race with passing, etc.
Ooh. That sounds fun. Though the price of tires...

Originally Posted by ScreaM View Post
I came across the website https://vinanalytics.com/.

Very useful when comparing options on used cars. You can just paste VIN # and it gives you detailed build sheet. Not 100% accurate but close enough.
Very cool, thanks!
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Old 03-06-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by pokingaround View Post
Ooh. That sounds fun. Though the price of tires...
I have seen rough estimates that a track day is in the ~$1k/day range for the track time, tires, insurance (street insurance is void on the track), etc. It is completely amazing what a stock Porsche can do on the track. I took a PTT out on Brainard International Raceway on the short corse. 1st time out on the track and I had it up to 130 mph in no time before slowing into a corner.

For a really good time the Porsche Sport Driving School (now Porsche Track Experience) in Birmingham is 1000% recommended. It’s really. Not that much more than a track day and you get to run Porsche cars all day long (I drove a 718 GTS, 911 TTS, 911 GTS and a few others like Panamera, Cayenne and Macan) all in one day.

Of course the real cost of the PTX stuff in Birmingham is not the class fees. It’s the fact that I took my wife to drive too and now she wants a Panamera TTS. Looking at it that way, it was a very expensive weekend.


I use vinanalytics all the time. It is invaluable when shopping for a Porsche.


Last edited by GoBlue!; 03-06-2019 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 03-06-2019, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by pokingaround View Post
Ooh. That sounds fun. Though the price of tires...


Don't forget brakes and extra oil changes.
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Old 03-06-2019, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post
Don't forget brakes and extra oil changes.
Oof. Maybe I'll stick to the roads LOL.
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Old 03-07-2019, 02:17 PM
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Default VINANALYTICS

I ran my VIN through the vinanalytics system and was surprised by the price of the car. The options were accurate but The price they show is actually higher than the sticker. Does anyone know how they get the price? Do you think they calculate it based on options pricing but not necessarily the sticker price. The price they show is about 3 grand more than the sticker
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Old 03-07-2019, 02:28 PM
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Not sure on how the price is pulled. Maybe the price includes destination charges or recent price increase? What happens when you price your car on the 19 configuration? Does it match the Vin Analytics price then?
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Old 03-08-2019, 09:41 AM
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Mine shows accurate to the penny, FWIW.
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:40 AM
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Purchased a new 2018 Panamera Turbo Sport Turismo last fall. $178 MSRP for $20K off. We also have a Macan S (wife), and a Tesla MS P85DL. Sold my track 997TT when I got the Tesla. My quick thoughts: We have a 80lb Malamute that we take lots of places. The Macan is tons better for hauling her than the TST. The wagon area is a lot smaller than I thought it would be. Just like I sold the 997TT when I got the Tesla, I am going to sell my Telsa now that I have the TST - the TST is just leaps and bounds more fun than both of those cars. I have no intention of taking the TST to the track - though I am sure it is more than capable (track days are expensive and hard on everything including the pocketbook).
If you primary intention is to haul the goldens - try putting them in one before purchasing. I had grand intentions of using my new TST for hauling my bikes around only to find out they will not fit inside the back.
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