Gonna get a Chevy Volt, wish me luck.
11-25-2011, 03:41 PM
#61
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In Europe, diesels have started to fade, because it has become quite expensive to meet emissions standards in small cars, and modern direct injection gasoline engines are nearly as efficient. They still make sense for larger cars, and for people who drive a lot, though.
I suspect we will eventually see more hybrids coming out of Europe, including diesel hybrids. Peugeot has developed a hybrid system that uses electric on the rear axles, and combustion in the front - it's easy to adopt to any car they make.
I agree that pure electric will take a long time to become mainstream, if it ever happens. I'd give the fuel cell a higher likelihood than the battery to power these.
I suspect we will eventually see more hybrids coming out of Europe, including diesel hybrids. Peugeot has developed a hybrid system that uses electric on the rear axles, and combustion in the front - it's easy to adopt to any car they make.
I agree that pure electric will take a long time to become mainstream, if it ever happens. I'd give the fuel cell a higher likelihood than the battery to power these.
Hybrid technology isn't bad, but paying 8K or so for new batteries is an expense that people will soon start to experience. That could be a burden, a burden that could incapacitate many hybrids because the owner's don't have that chunk of change.
Pure electric for 40 miles (or whatever) is a fad IMO. Batteries need to give much longer range at high speeds, plus almost instant recharging at numerous and convenient locations, plus much lower replacement costs. Of course that technology and parameters aren't here.
Next year GM is supposedly releasing their Cruze with diesel/hybrid. Curious to see if they will and what mileage it comes in at....and then there's that battery replacement cost.
Last edited by Dariof; 11-25-2011 at 04:07 PM.
11-25-2011, 04:37 PM
#62
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Now that's (diesel/hybrid) the ticket if they can get battery expense down. I've been saying that for several years.
Hybrid technology isn't bad, but paying 8K or so for new batteries is a real expense that people will soon start to experience. That's real money and could be a burden, a burden that could incapacitate many hybrids because the owner's don't have that chunk of change.
Pure electric for 40 miles (or whatever) is a fad IMO. Batteries need to give much longer range at high speeds, plus almost instant recharging at numerous and convenient locations, plus 10% of the current replacement costs. Of course that technology and parameters aren't here.
Next year GM is supposedly releasing their Cruze with diesel/hybrid. Curious to see if they will and what mileage it comes in at....and then there's that battery replacement cost.
Hybrid technology isn't bad, but paying 8K or so for new batteries is a real expense that people will soon start to experience. That's real money and could be a burden, a burden that could incapacitate many hybrids because the owner's don't have that chunk of change.
Pure electric for 40 miles (or whatever) is a fad IMO. Batteries need to give much longer range at high speeds, plus almost instant recharging at numerous and convenient locations, plus 10% of the current replacement costs. Of course that technology and parameters aren't here.
Next year GM is supposedly releasing their Cruze with diesel/hybrid. Curious to see if they will and what mileage it comes in at....and then there's that battery replacement cost.
The 40 mile range is not a gimmick, over 80% of Americans drive less than 40 miles per day. In any case I think the Leaf is the only mass produced car with a finite range, all the rest like the Volt, Prius, etc, still use gas when the electrons all leak out.
The $8K every 300K miles is analogous to an engine rebuild so I don't consider that an issue. And that's for the most advanced battery technology available today, it should go down pretty quickly by the time anyone actually needs one. For example, the Prius batteries have gone from ~$2.4K to under $1K in just a few years. $1K every 300K miles is not a burden.
Hybrid technology is here to stay. The vast majority of energy produced by a car is wasted as heat, and almost all the kinetic energy is wasted. Brakes convert all that valuable momentum into waste heat. Heavy traffic means 0 mpg even in a diesel. Coasting wastes momentum as engine braking, etc, etc. Hybrids try to reclaim all that wasted energy. It's a very elegant approach that appeals to the engineer in me. A diesel is just poking yourself with a blunt stick instead of a sharp one and claiming it doesn't hurt as much.
I think the next few years will see some amazing advances. We'll see hybrid sports cars (like the Porsche 918) that use the technology for performance instead of just mileage. We'll see diesel/electric hybrids that offer the best of both worlds. We'll see hybrids that can finally cover an average gas tank worth of range. maybe 300+ miles, before kicking in it's onboard diesel generator and going another 300 miles while also charging the battery all the way back up.
Gas is finite. Let's save it for us enthusiasts with cool cars. Why waste it on some heifer on her way to Walmart in a Suburban? She doesn't care anyway. Plus, every gallon we save brings some evil folks that much closer to going back to the stone age, where they were not so long ago.
11-25-2011, 04:44 PM
#63
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I don't think they're a fad. They are already cheaper to run per mile than gas or diesel. The upfront costs are still substantial but will come down over time as the technology improves. We're still in that early adopter phase like any technology. I don't regret that $1K I spent on a 50MB RLL hard drive back in the day.
The 40 mile range is not a gimmick, over 80% of Americans drive less than 40 miles per day. In any case I think the Leaf is the only mass produced car with a finite range, all the rest like the Volt, Prius, etc, still use gas when the electrons all leak out.
The $8K every 300K miles is analogous to an engine rebuild so I don't consider that an issue. And that's for the most advanced battery technology available today, it should go down pretty quickly by the time anyone actually needs one. For example, the Prius batteries have gone from ~$2.4K to under $1K in just a few years. $1K every 300K miles is not a burden.
Hybrid technology is here to stay. The vast majority of energy produced by a car is wasted as heat, and almost all the kinetic energy is wasted. Brakes convert all that valuable momentum into waste heat. Heavy traffic means 0 mpg even in a diesel. Coasting wastes momentum as engine braking, etc, etc. Hybrids try to reclaim all that wasted energy. It's a very elegant approach that appeals to the engineer in me. A diesel is just poking yourself with a blunt stick instead of a sharp one and claiming it doesn't hurt as much.
I think the next few years will see some amazing advances. We'll see hybrid sports cars (like the Porsche 918) that use the technology for performance instead of just mileage. We'll see diesel/electric hybrids that offer the best of both worlds. We'll see hybrids that can finally cover an average gas tank worth of range. maybe 300+ miles, before kicking in it's onboard diesel generator and going another 300 miles while also charging the battery all the way back up.
Gas is finite. Let's save it for us enthusiasts with cool cars. Why waste it on some heifer on her way to Walmart in a Suburban? She doesn't care anyway. Plus, every gallon we save brings some evil folks that much closer to going back to the stone age, where they were not so long ago.
The 40 mile range is not a gimmick, over 80% of Americans drive less than 40 miles per day. In any case I think the Leaf is the only mass produced car with a finite range, all the rest like the Volt, Prius, etc, still use gas when the electrons all leak out.
The $8K every 300K miles is analogous to an engine rebuild so I don't consider that an issue. And that's for the most advanced battery technology available today, it should go down pretty quickly by the time anyone actually needs one. For example, the Prius batteries have gone from ~$2.4K to under $1K in just a few years. $1K every 300K miles is not a burden.
Hybrid technology is here to stay. The vast majority of energy produced by a car is wasted as heat, and almost all the kinetic energy is wasted. Brakes convert all that valuable momentum into waste heat. Heavy traffic means 0 mpg even in a diesel. Coasting wastes momentum as engine braking, etc, etc. Hybrids try to reclaim all that wasted energy. It's a very elegant approach that appeals to the engineer in me. A diesel is just poking yourself with a blunt stick instead of a sharp one and claiming it doesn't hurt as much.
I think the next few years will see some amazing advances. We'll see hybrid sports cars (like the Porsche 918) that use the technology for performance instead of just mileage. We'll see diesel/electric hybrids that offer the best of both worlds. We'll see hybrids that can finally cover an average gas tank worth of range. maybe 300+ miles, before kicking in it's onboard diesel generator and going another 300 miles while also charging the battery all the way back up.
Gas is finite. Let's save it for us enthusiasts with cool cars. Why waste it on some heifer on her way to Walmart in a Suburban? She doesn't care anyway. Plus, every gallon we save brings some evil folks that much closer to going back to the stone age, where they were not so long ago.
Today at Toyota, I was told 150-200K for the battery life. It's too soon to tell, but I don't buy the 300K mile theory. Also, the price for batteries is around $2,500. You can get them for around $500 from a junkyard if you want to go that way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius
Hybrid technology is probably here to stay. There's no argument to that. But not the current technology. It has to get a whole lot better. When it does, I'll look to replace my diesels (I have two of them) with a hybrid/diesel.
Last edited by Dariof; 11-25-2011 at 04:59 PM.
11-25-2011, 04:51 PM
#64
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Had a Volt as a rental car. I was impressed. Very clever engineering indeed.
11-25-2011, 05:09 PM
#66
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In Europe, diesels have started to fade, because it has become quite expensive to meet emissions standards in small cars, and modern direct injection gasoline engines are nearly as efficient. They still make sense for larger cars, and for people who drive a lot, though.
I suspect we will eventually see more hybrids coming out of Europe, including diesel hybrids. Peugeot has developed a hybrid system that uses electric on the rear axles, and combustion in the front - it's easy to adopt to any car they make.
I agree that pure electric will take a long time to become mainstream, if it ever happens. I'd give the fuel cell a higher likelihood than the battery to power these.
I suspect we will eventually see more hybrids coming out of Europe, including diesel hybrids. Peugeot has developed a hybrid system that uses electric on the rear axles, and combustion in the front - it's easy to adopt to any car they make.
I agree that pure electric will take a long time to become mainstream, if it ever happens. I'd give the fuel cell a higher likelihood than the battery to power these.
Car scrappage schemes back in 2009 and increases in diesel price, slowed down diesel sales a bit but from 2010 and on, with the recession hitting harder, diesels picked up.
For example, diesel car sales overtook petrol in UK for first time last year.
And diesel is not priced on par with petrol there..
European sales in 2010 showed a 7.4 increase in diesel cars and a 15.1 fall in petrol car sales.
source: http://www.eagleaid.com/dieselcarprospectsstudy.htm
11-25-2011, 05:55 PM
#67
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This is not accurate.
Car scrappage schemes back in 2009 and increases in diesel price, slowed down diesel sales a bit but from 2010 and on, with the recession hitting harder, diesels picked up.
For example, diesel car sales overtook petrol in UK for first time last year.
And diesel is not priced on par with petrol there..
European sales in 2010 showed a 7.4 increase in diesel cars and a 15.1 fall in petrol car sales.
source: http://www.eagleaid.com/dieselcarprospectsstudy.htm
Car scrappage schemes back in 2009 and increases in diesel price, slowed down diesel sales a bit but from 2010 and on, with the recession hitting harder, diesels picked up.
For example, diesel car sales overtook petrol in UK for first time last year.
And diesel is not priced on par with petrol there..
European sales in 2010 showed a 7.4 increase in diesel cars and a 15.1 fall in petrol car sales.
source: http://www.eagleaid.com/dieselcarprospectsstudy.htm
11-25-2011, 08:53 PM
#69
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...siness+News%29
Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:46pm EST
(Reuters) - U.S. auto safety regulators are opening a formal investigation into fire risks in General Motors' Volt vehicles.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said on Friday it was taking the step after efforts to recreate a May crash test saw fires result from two out of three crash tests performed this month.
"While it is too soon to tell whether the investigation will lead to a recall of any vehicles or parts, if NHTSA identifies an unreasonable risk to safety, the agency will take immediate action to notify consumers and ensure that GM communicates with current vehicle owners," the agency said.
Earlier this month, NHTSA disclosed that it was probing the safety of batteries used to power electric vehicles after fire broke out in a Volt battery pack three weeks after a side-impact crash test.
NHTSA said on Friday it believes that electric vehicles have incredible potential to save people money at the pump, help protect the environment, create jobs and strengthen national security by reducing dependence on oil.
Nevertheless, it is working with manufacturers to ensure they have appropriate post-crash protocols and to help inform emergency services of the potential for post-crash fires in electric vehicles.
Originally Posted by El Reuters
U.S. opening formal probe into GM Volt fire risk
U.S. opening formal probe into GM Volt fire risk
Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:46pm EST
(Reuters) - U.S. auto safety regulators are opening a formal investigation into fire risks in General Motors' Volt vehicles.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said on Friday it was taking the step after efforts to recreate a May crash test saw fires result from two out of three crash tests performed this month.
"While it is too soon to tell whether the investigation will lead to a recall of any vehicles or parts, if NHTSA identifies an unreasonable risk to safety, the agency will take immediate action to notify consumers and ensure that GM communicates with current vehicle owners," the agency said.
Earlier this month, NHTSA disclosed that it was probing the safety of batteries used to power electric vehicles after fire broke out in a Volt battery pack three weeks after a side-impact crash test.
NHTSA said on Friday it believes that electric vehicles have incredible potential to save people money at the pump, help protect the environment, create jobs and strengthen national security by reducing dependence on oil.
Nevertheless, it is working with manufacturers to ensure they have appropriate post-crash protocols and to help inform emergency services of the potential for post-crash fires in electric vehicles.
11-25-2011, 10:03 PM
#70
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11-25-2011, 10:21 PM
#71
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11-26-2011, 12:45 AM
#72
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Having just painted and reinstalled the gas tank in my old Carrera, I think the Volt is the least of my safety issues.
11-26-2011, 05:07 AM
#74
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Had lunch with a friend who is currently shopping for an Audi A3 TDI - which makes a lot of sense for her driving profile. She told me she has two co-workers who own Chevrolet Volts.
One has already taken a few longer trips without problems, and loves the car.
The other co-worker's Volt went completely dead at some point - she claims it was because of a discharged battery. Whatever it was - it was fixed on warranty.
One of the details that bug me on the Volt is the opening between the rear seats. We have the same thing in the 928 (providing we skip the luggage cover), and things can fly into the interior upon hard breaking. Otherwise, I find the interior of the Volt pretty attractive, even though the materials don't feel nearly as nice as in the Audi A3.
I agree with PeterS that VW should make automatic climate control available in the Golf and Jetta TDI versions - none of the other eco-vehicles use a standard AC anymore! And some of the interior plastics on the Golf and Jetta feel really, really cheap. My friend's fiance has the Golf TDI, and she likes how it drives, but the interior is a big reason she is looking at the Audi.
Later in the day, I got to drive a Nissan Leaf.
My impressions:
- Steering is very light; it feels a bit detached from the road.
- The brake has two stages - recuperation and actual braking. This might take a bit of getting used-to for some.
- It felt very smooth and quiet (surprise!).
Otherwise it felt like a normal car.
While its 90 mile radius would allow me to do my daily commute easily, it would not be enough to get to San Francisco, run a few errands, and drive back home. So it wouldn't be practical for me, despite the roomy interior and sizable trunk. It's really a car for limited short-distance use - too limited for my taste. OTOH it's relatively affordable, particularly after the rebates. And one could use the carpool lane in it... that might be the biggest incentive to get one.
One has already taken a few longer trips without problems, and loves the car.
The other co-worker's Volt went completely dead at some point - she claims it was because of a discharged battery. Whatever it was - it was fixed on warranty.
One of the details that bug me on the Volt is the opening between the rear seats. We have the same thing in the 928 (providing we skip the luggage cover), and things can fly into the interior upon hard breaking. Otherwise, I find the interior of the Volt pretty attractive, even though the materials don't feel nearly as nice as in the Audi A3.
I agree with PeterS that VW should make automatic climate control available in the Golf and Jetta TDI versions - none of the other eco-vehicles use a standard AC anymore! And some of the interior plastics on the Golf and Jetta feel really, really cheap. My friend's fiance has the Golf TDI, and she likes how it drives, but the interior is a big reason she is looking at the Audi.
Later in the day, I got to drive a Nissan Leaf.
My impressions:
- Steering is very light; it feels a bit detached from the road.
- The brake has two stages - recuperation and actual braking. This might take a bit of getting used-to for some.
- It felt very smooth and quiet (surprise!).
Otherwise it felt like a normal car.
While its 90 mile radius would allow me to do my daily commute easily, it would not be enough to get to San Francisco, run a few errands, and drive back home. So it wouldn't be practical for me, despite the roomy interior and sizable trunk. It's really a car for limited short-distance use - too limited for my taste. OTOH it's relatively affordable, particularly after the rebates. And one could use the carpool lane in it... that might be the biggest incentive to get one.
11-26-2011, 05:13 AM
#75
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This is not accurate.
Car scrappage schemes back in 2009 and increases in diesel price, slowed down diesel sales a bit but from 2010 and on, with the recession hitting harder, diesels picked up.
For example, diesel car sales overtook petrol in UK for first time last year.
And diesel is not priced on par with petrol there..
European sales in 2010 showed a 7.4 increase in diesel cars and a 15.1 fall in petrol car sales.
source: http://www.eagleaid.com/dieselcarprospectsstudy.htm
Car scrappage schemes back in 2009 and increases in diesel price, slowed down diesel sales a bit but from 2010 and on, with the recession hitting harder, diesels picked up.
For example, diesel car sales overtook petrol in UK for first time last year.
And diesel is not priced on par with petrol there..
European sales in 2010 showed a 7.4 increase in diesel cars and a 15.1 fall in petrol car sales.
source: http://www.eagleaid.com/dieselcarprospectsstudy.htm
Also, every European country has different gas/diesel price structures, registration taxes, etc. - all of which can influence buying behavior.
It would be interesting to study the numbers from the report you cited. I'm sure it's much more detailed than the short article I read a few months ago.