GLA 45 AMG?
10-17-2014, 07:24 PM
#46
CLA is successful because it's an M-B that starts in the $20's. If it wasn't successful, it would be a disastrous thing. If Porsche released a car in the $20's, there would be a line wrapped around dealer blocks around the world. Really nothing impressive to sell a FWD compact econocar for a couple or few hundred a month to lease, and by exploiting the brand to do so.
The GLA will probably fail because it's way too awkward, and I think the especially U.S market will find it as nonsensical as a 5 Series GT. Also, because I think it'll be akin to a German Aztek of sorts in terms of how it will go down styling wise. Functionally, it's another useable, cheaper Benz, so it essentially SHOULD sell like hotcakes, at least initially (until the novelty of a cheap FWD based Benz simmers). I think the CLA is a bad design, but it's a sedan therefore easy enough to digest. And small Sedans like it generally have goofy, "cute" bean-bag proportioned and kind of "Fast And Furious inspired" design overtones. The GLA is gonna be a tough sell, even at its price point. I think it'll go the way of the R Class, but again, it's a cheap Benz with some utility, it has no reason to sell bad.... unless its styling really works against it that much.
The GLA will probably fail because it's way too awkward, and I think the especially U.S market will find it as nonsensical as a 5 Series GT. Also, because I think it'll be akin to a German Aztek of sorts in terms of how it will go down styling wise. Functionally, it's another useable, cheaper Benz, so it essentially SHOULD sell like hotcakes, at least initially (until the novelty of a cheap FWD based Benz simmers). I think the CLA is a bad design, but it's a sedan therefore easy enough to digest. And small Sedans like it generally have goofy, "cute" bean-bag proportioned and kind of "Fast And Furious inspired" design overtones. The GLA is gonna be a tough sell, even at its price point. I think it'll go the way of the R Class, but again, it's a cheap Benz with some utility, it has no reason to sell bad.... unless its styling really works against it that much.
10-17-2014, 07:26 PM
#47
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Yes.
No.
We are talking GLA45 here, let's stick to the subject.
For some models yes, but not GLA45. It is a quite smooth driver in E mode, an animal in M mode.
Again I think you are going off course. You seem to hate MB in general, and then paint the same brush over the GLA45.
GLA45 is not a copy of anything, currently there is not a single model out there truly like it. It's a first, therefore is not a copy. That is true both in the styling and in driving dynamics, it is its own kind.
Other crossovers however all share a lot more common traits, basically copying one another.
Huge difference from standard suspension. That setup really.blows away the X3 along with any other SUV.
MB are actually making their cars LESS sporty. The new C was shockingly bland to drive, many agree that it's less sporty than previous. The E drives like a boat with feather light steering, etc.
AMG are making sportier cars and transforming MB's typically sloppy chassis dynamics. Big difference. But with AMG's, you lose a lot of serenity if that matters. Kind of a game of extremes.
I don't think bad designs constitute "thinking outside of the box", but to each their own. To me, MB designs ate very contrived these days and also going through an identity crisis as where they used to be the ones copied, these days they seem to do the copying.
GLA45 is not a copy of anything, currently there is not a single model out there truly like it. It's a first, therefore is not a copy. That is true both in the styling and in driving dynamics, it is its own kind.
Other crossovers however all share a lot more common traits, basically copying one another.
10-17-2014, 07:41 PM
#48
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BMW has a similar model, called 2 series, hardly sold that many.
CLA sold over 100K all over the world in less than one year since the launch. It is the most successful launch vehicle in the history of MB. You need to consider full facts and use facts correctly, before throwing opinions around.
If Porsche released a car in the $20's, there would be a line wrapped around dealer blocks around the world. Really nothing impressive to sell a FWD compact econocar for a couple or few hundred a month to lease, and by exploiting the brand to do so.
Like the others have said, even the Macan is priced the lowest in the Porsche lineup to go down market.
Yes not as low as MB/BMW/Audi, only to the degree they differ.
The GLA will probably fail because it's way too awkward, and I think the especially U.S market will find it as nonsensical as a 5 Series GT. Also, because I think it'll be akin to a German Aztek of sorts in terms of how it will go down styling wise. Functionally, it's another useable, cheaper Benz, so it essentially SHOULD sell like hotcakes, at least initially (until the novelty of a cheap FWD based Benz simmers). I think the CLA is a bad design, but it's a sedan therefore easy enough to digest. And small Sedans like it generally have goofy, "cute" bean-bag proportioned and kind of "Fast And Furious inspired" design overtones. The GLA is gonna be a tough sell, even at its price point. I think it'll go the way of the R Class, but again, it's a cheap Benz with some utility, it has no reason to sell bad.... unless its styling really works against it that much.
With the success of "cheap" premium model sales by MB, BMW and Audi, other brands are under pressure.
I don't know what you will think of when your Macan is no longer the least expensive in the lineup. Would you think Porsche has begun to sell "garbage"? Or would you consider the move brilliant?
Or do you predict Porsche will not go down market any further?
10-17-2014, 08:01 PM
#49
Yes.
No.
We are talking GLA45 here, let's stick to the subject.
For some models yes, but not GLA45. It is a quite smooth driver in E mode, an animal in M mode.
Again I think you are going off course. You seem to hate MB in general, and then paint the same brush over the GLA45.
GLA45 is not a copy of anything, currently there is not a single model out there truly like it. It's a first, therefore is not a copy. That is true both in the styling and in driving dynamics, it is its own kind.
Other crossovers however all share a lot more common traits, basically copying one another.
No.
We are talking GLA45 here, let's stick to the subject.
For some models yes, but not GLA45. It is a quite smooth driver in E mode, an animal in M mode.
Again I think you are going off course. You seem to hate MB in general, and then paint the same brush over the GLA45.
GLA45 is not a copy of anything, currently there is not a single model out there truly like it. It's a first, therefore is not a copy. That is true both in the styling and in driving dynamics, it is its own kind.
Other crossovers however all share a lot more common traits, basically copying one another.
Please, it starts in the $30K.
BMW has a similar model, called 2 series, hardly sold that many.
CLA sold over 100K all over the world in less than one year since the launch. It is the most successful launch vehicle in the history of MB. You need to consider full facts and use facts correctly, before throwing opinions around.
Porsche is going to release a compact 4 dr sedan soon. They are working on 4 banger engines too. Are you not aware of the trend?
Like the others have said, even the Macan is priced the lowest in the Porsche lineup to go down market.
Yes not as low as MB/BMW/Audi, only to the degree they differ.
A lot of your opinions are based solely on your personal taste, without factual basis. I usually don't trust such opinions.
With the success of "cheap" premium model sales by MB, BMW and Audi, other brands are under pressure.
I don't know what you will think of when your Macan is no longer the least expensive in the lineup.
BMW has a similar model, called 2 series, hardly sold that many.
CLA sold over 100K all over the world in less than one year since the launch. It is the most successful launch vehicle in the history of MB. You need to consider full facts and use facts correctly, before throwing opinions around.
Porsche is going to release a compact 4 dr sedan soon. They are working on 4 banger engines too. Are you not aware of the trend?
Like the others have said, even the Macan is priced the lowest in the Porsche lineup to go down market.
Yes not as low as MB/BMW/Audi, only to the degree they differ.
A lot of your opinions are based solely on your personal taste, without factual basis. I usually don't trust such opinions.
With the success of "cheap" premium model sales by MB, BMW and Audi, other brands are under pressure.
I don't know what you will think of when your Macan is no longer the least expensive in the lineup.
OF COURSE the CLA will be the most successful launch! It's the cheapest Benz out, and it's a scaled down CLS! It means nothing if M-B can exploit their brand to such low priced levels.
The 2 Series is a Coupe right now, so naturally it won't sell as much.
The Macan does blow away any other SUV ever released in dynamics. Nearly ever review has stated this, along with those who've driven all of them. The X3 is barely comparable, and the Macan has come out ahead vs the X4 in every test (it might've been closer with a Diesel Macan using the Audi engine) as well, the X4 being sportier than the X3. Maybe you perceive it differently because you're stuck on the GLA?
I don't like M-B anymore, but the GLA is the worst of them to me. I think it's the worst looking M-B put out yet.
And it's not entirely unique, it's literally an A Class raised up, intertwined with some awkward SUV implementation. Completely lazy as the A Class design just doesn't fit right in that nature, therefore rendering the GLA like a mutated A Class.
Again, the Macan isn't about being "cheap". It carries Porsche DNA better than the Cayenne and Panamera. The Macan actually serves a purpose, that has nothing to do with price (along with price serving a purpose to be a more volume seller). Porsche proves that they aren't building their cars to a price, they're building them to a specification. I'd rather buy a Macan than any Cayenne, because I need a Porsche that my height can be comfortable in, and the Macan is the only one that delivers that, and I also want a 911, and the Cayenne, as great of an SUV that it is, is much further from that than the Macan.
The CLA and GLA are built only to a price, not a specification. A boardroom decision to cash in on the brand, sacrificing everything that made the brand what it is today. Those interiors alone should be sacrilege for an M-B, but unfortunately, are becoming more common amongst the M-B range. The Macan was more an answer to many Porsche enthusiasts, i.e building something with closer DNA, yet with SUV functionality.
10-17-2014, 08:25 PM
#50
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You seem to be really trying to justify the GLA.
OF COURSE the CLA will be the most successful launch! It's the cheapest Benz out, and it's a scaled down CLS! It means nothing if M-B can exploit their brand to such low priced levels.
The 2 Series is a Coupe right now, so naturally it won't sell as much.
The Macan does blow away any other SUV ever released in dynamics. Nearly ever review has stated this, along with those who've driven all of them. The X3 is barely comparable, and the Macan has come out ahead vs the X4 in every test (it might've been closer with a Diesel Macan using the Audi engine) as well, the X4 being sportier than the X3. Maybe you perceive it differently because you're stuck on the GLA?
I don't like M-B anymore, but the GLA is the worst of them to me. I think it's the worst looking M-B put out yet.
And it's not entirely unique, it's literally an A Class raised up, intertwined with some awkward SUV implementation. Completely lazy as the A Class design just doesn't fit right in that nature, therefore rendering the GLA like a mutated A Class.
Again, the Macan isn't about being "cheap". It carries Porsche DNA better than the Cayenne and Panamera. The Macan actually serves a purpose, that has nothing to do with price (along with price serving a purpose to be a more volume seller). Porsche proves that they aren't building their cars to a price, they're building them to a specification. I'd rather buy a Macan than any Cayenne, because I need a Porsche that my height can be comfortable in, and the Macan is the only one that delivers that, and I also want a 911, and the Cayenne, as great of an SUV that it is, is much further from that than the Macan.
The CLA and GLA are built only to a price, not a specification. A boardroom decision to cash in on the brand, sacrificing everything that made the brand what it is today. Those interiors alone should be sacrilege for an M-B, but unfortunately, are becoming more common amongst the M-B range. The Macan was more an answer to many Porsche enthusiasts, i.e building something with closer DNA, yet with SUV functionality.
Are CLA45 and GLA45 AMGs build for a price? Absolutely not. They are the most costly in their own segments. In comparison, Macan would be more build for a price for its segment.
The guy I test drove with has been selling Porsche for decades, it completely blew his mind that Porsche priced the Macan S below, say a Boxster, which has half of the materials. His words not mine.
No denying Macan S is a very good driver's SUV, but still an SUV. It also happens the GLA45 beats the Macan S in performance.
All facts, nothing to do with which I like. If anything I said I am more likely to get a Macan S than a GLA45.
10-17-2014, 08:47 PM
#51
The GLA45 is built for a price just as much as the regular GLA. It's still a GLA, same interior, same design, same build quality. Performance/drivetrain/suspension are different, but it's still what it is.
The comparison is most like a loaded M3 vs a 911 with no options. Some would rather go for the dressed up and maxed out version of a much cheaper inherent car, and some want a car that's built to a higher price at its very core basis. That's still unfair as the M3 is a well regarded design, and the GLA is far from the M3 in terms of aesthetic desirability, while the Macan seems to please most everyone with its looks.
I think it's clear that Porsche has artificially priced the Macan S low simply for marketing purposes. Simply because nobody could spec a Macan with no options. It's missing some very standard things, and I'm not talking about Nav, and heated seats, I mean it's just obviously a clever ploy to get you on their configurator after your jaw drops as a Porsche that's especially getting such rave reviews, starting at $50K. When I first saw a Macan, I walked into a Porsche dealer, and it was a basic spec Macan with all the cheaper looking black plastic bumper and lower bits, and assumed it costed like $80 or $90K, especially since I heard so many great things about it online.
I drove a Macan S with AS/PASM and PVT+ and it was frankly the most impressive car I've ever driven. Keep in mind that I'm speaking *overall*, it's an SUV therefore gives me the headroom that no other premium car does (even more than a Cayenne), very much helped by the fact that it's one of the only premium cars that you can get without a sunroof, therefore is easily the most comfortable car I've ever driven. It's refined to the point of precision, and to me it handled and drove unbelievably, especially considering you're getting to have your cake and being able to eat it too. It's a car for those who "NEED" an SUV but want that 911 spirit (in my case, I need it for headroom, some do for utility, some for family, etc.). It honestly felt to me like an inflated 911. So it answers my desires and demands: I get a Porsche, one that really feels like a Porsche, but allows me to safely and comfortably fit in it. It's basically my version of the 911.
The GLA45 would be fun, but to me, way overpriced for Macan S price, I don't care how fast it is, because I want a car that delivers a total package. As well, from what I understand, they're close enough to where it isn't a blowout by any means, which to me says a lot about the Macan as you get so many more inherent virtues from it. Again, it's the loaded M3 vs bare-bones 911 thing. It depends on what your'e looking for.
The comparison is most like a loaded M3 vs a 911 with no options. Some would rather go for the dressed up and maxed out version of a much cheaper inherent car, and some want a car that's built to a higher price at its very core basis. That's still unfair as the M3 is a well regarded design, and the GLA is far from the M3 in terms of aesthetic desirability, while the Macan seems to please most everyone with its looks.
I think it's clear that Porsche has artificially priced the Macan S low simply for marketing purposes. Simply because nobody could spec a Macan with no options. It's missing some very standard things, and I'm not talking about Nav, and heated seats, I mean it's just obviously a clever ploy to get you on their configurator after your jaw drops as a Porsche that's especially getting such rave reviews, starting at $50K. When I first saw a Macan, I walked into a Porsche dealer, and it was a basic spec Macan with all the cheaper looking black plastic bumper and lower bits, and assumed it costed like $80 or $90K, especially since I heard so many great things about it online.
I drove a Macan S with AS/PASM and PVT+ and it was frankly the most impressive car I've ever driven. Keep in mind that I'm speaking *overall*, it's an SUV therefore gives me the headroom that no other premium car does (even more than a Cayenne), very much helped by the fact that it's one of the only premium cars that you can get without a sunroof, therefore is easily the most comfortable car I've ever driven. It's refined to the point of precision, and to me it handled and drove unbelievably, especially considering you're getting to have your cake and being able to eat it too. It's a car for those who "NEED" an SUV but want that 911 spirit (in my case, I need it for headroom, some do for utility, some for family, etc.). It honestly felt to me like an inflated 911. So it answers my desires and demands: I get a Porsche, one that really feels like a Porsche, but allows me to safely and comfortably fit in it. It's basically my version of the 911.
The GLA45 would be fun, but to me, way overpriced for Macan S price, I don't care how fast it is, because I want a car that delivers a total package. As well, from what I understand, they're close enough to where it isn't a blowout by any means, which to me says a lot about the Macan as you get so many more inherent virtues from it. Again, it's the loaded M3 vs bare-bones 911 thing. It depends on what your'e looking for.
10-17-2014, 08:59 PM
#52
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I would just point out one thing, you have been trying to have it both ways all along.
On one hand you believe GLA45 is built for a price, Macan is not. Yet to you, the GLA45 is way over priced than Macan S, which by definition, makes the Macan S more build for a price, at least as far as you are concerned.
Both models are optioned up by buyers, and options add fast.
Facts after facts, I have demonstrated the manufactures' strategies behind the two are almost identical. They only differ in the age groups, and demographics of the particular age groups they target.
Your personal taste does not change those facts.
On one hand you believe GLA45 is built for a price, Macan is not. Yet to you, the GLA45 is way over priced than Macan S, which by definition, makes the Macan S more build for a price, at least as far as you are concerned.
Both models are optioned up by buyers, and options add fast.
Facts after facts, I have demonstrated the manufactures' strategies behind the two are almost identical. They only differ in the age groups, and demographics of the particular age groups they target.
Your personal taste does not change those facts.
10-17-2014, 09:06 PM
#53
Those aren't facts.
The Macan delivers an experience that you couldn't find from Porsche elsewhere. Even the interior is extremely similar to the more expensive cars. The drive to many is superior to any other Porsche 4 door.
The GLA and CLA are sacrifices, completely. There are no redeeming qualities compared to other M-B's, nada, zilch, zero, unless you need a small and quirky 4 door. The AMG 45's are 4 cylinder AMG's, really? I don't think that's anything innovative within the brand. Different, but not in a good way.
The GLA45 is based on a car that's built to a historically low price (for MB) with a large premium for its performance merits. You speak of it like it's a totally different car than the GLA. It is a GLA, just with a better drivetrain and handling components. The Macan Turbo is a better example It's based on a car that starts in the $50K's, yet has a large premium for performance. The Macan is in a different league from the GLA, any GLA. You can spec a GLA to get up to a base Macan S, just like you can spec a Macan S to reach the price of another car that starts at a higher base price.
There's really nothing about the Macan that's a sacrifice compared to other Porsche's. To me, it's the lease sacrificed of all the 4 doors. The Panamera has a polarizing rear and as great as it drives, feels massive around you, and the Cayenne is intended as a Utility vehicle.
The Macan delivers an experience that you couldn't find from Porsche elsewhere. Even the interior is extremely similar to the more expensive cars. The drive to many is superior to any other Porsche 4 door.
The GLA and CLA are sacrifices, completely. There are no redeeming qualities compared to other M-B's, nada, zilch, zero, unless you need a small and quirky 4 door. The AMG 45's are 4 cylinder AMG's, really? I don't think that's anything innovative within the brand. Different, but not in a good way.
The GLA45 is based on a car that's built to a historically low price (for MB) with a large premium for its performance merits. You speak of it like it's a totally different car than the GLA. It is a GLA, just with a better drivetrain and handling components. The Macan Turbo is a better example It's based on a car that starts in the $50K's, yet has a large premium for performance. The Macan is in a different league from the GLA, any GLA. You can spec a GLA to get up to a base Macan S, just like you can spec a Macan S to reach the price of another car that starts at a higher base price.
There's really nothing about the Macan that's a sacrifice compared to other Porsche's. To me, it's the lease sacrificed of all the 4 doors. The Panamera has a polarizing rear and as great as it drives, feels massive around you, and the Cayenne is intended as a Utility vehicle.
10-17-2014, 09:21 PM
#54
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The GLA and CLA are sacrifices, completely. There are no redeeming qualities compared to other M-B's, nada, zilch, zero, unless you need a small and quirky 4 door.
The AMG 45's are 4 cylinder AMG's, really? I don't think that's anything innovative within the brand.
Different, but not in a good way.
The GLA45 is based on a car
The utility of each is a reasonable argument. For a young couple or in tighter space, the GLA45 may suit better.
The point is it is unreasonable to totally dismiss one, and put the other on the very top, when they share so many same traits and serve their own segments equally well.
10-17-2014, 09:25 PM
#55
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There's really nothing about the Macan that's a sacrifice compared to other Porsche's. To me, it's the lease sacrificed of all the 4 doors. The Panamera has a polarizing rear and as great as it drives, feels massive around you, and the Cayenne is intended as a Utility vehicle.
Part of the reason why it still drives like a truck, even though like you said, based on a car.
The mpg is still quite poor, for another.
10-17-2014, 09:50 PM
#56
Fact is, they're not in the same class. And I'd rather have a V6 TT than a 4 cylinder making similar power.
You thinking that what I'm saying about the Macan isn't "fact" is also your opinion, lol. It is a fact that the Macan is all of the above. There's no opinion about it. It offers something completely new, for Porsche and otherwise. I know this fact because there was no alternative that met many fundamental criteria. It is the most dynamic SUV ever released. Period. You'd be a very rare one to disagree with that.
I doubt you've driven one namely with AS if you think that it "drives like a truck". And it's an SUV, what are you imagining it should be? It's not supposed to way 3k lbs, it isn't that kind of vehicle. The point is that it is an SUV that defies logic of what an SUV is supposed to be. And the GLA is some car/SUV hybrid, that's why they have inherently different virtues.
The flaw with your argument is that you will overlook styling and nature, simply to justify one aspect: Performance. You can find cars that are faster than the GLA for a similar price then, that look much better to boot. The GLA45 isn't significantly faster than a Macan S by any means, and is outclassed in every other measure which also attribute to its much lower (GLA) entry fee.
You thinking that what I'm saying about the Macan isn't "fact" is also your opinion, lol. It is a fact that the Macan is all of the above. There's no opinion about it. It offers something completely new, for Porsche and otherwise. I know this fact because there was no alternative that met many fundamental criteria. It is the most dynamic SUV ever released. Period. You'd be a very rare one to disagree with that.
I doubt you've driven one namely with AS if you think that it "drives like a truck". And it's an SUV, what are you imagining it should be? It's not supposed to way 3k lbs, it isn't that kind of vehicle. The point is that it is an SUV that defies logic of what an SUV is supposed to be. And the GLA is some car/SUV hybrid, that's why they have inherently different virtues.
The flaw with your argument is that you will overlook styling and nature, simply to justify one aspect: Performance. You can find cars that are faster than the GLA for a similar price then, that look much better to boot. The GLA45 isn't significantly faster than a Macan S by any means, and is outclassed in every other measure which also attribute to its much lower (GLA) entry fee.
10-17-2014, 09:54 PM
#57
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This reminds me of the cartoon...
10-17-2014, 10:04 PM
#58
And being the newest and perhaps most high output 4 banger got it an award, makes sense as to get that power they had to put forth some innovative measures. Impressive but not really as I'd prefer they do what others still do which is offer 6+ engines on their high performance cars. It's a more crowded space so harder to get an award, but IMO a 355 HP 4 cylinder is less impressive and more "why would you do that". But I'm openly prejudice against 4 cylinders on premium (or so called premium) cars. One aspect you can't get past is sound, it'll always sound like a 4 cylinder.
Last edited by K-A; 10-18-2014 at 01:38 AM.
10-18-2014, 11:20 AM
#60
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I barely have a dog in this hunt, not really needing a new car, much less even a small SUV.
Did a lot of research before test driving a new 993, drove one less than a mile and wrote up the order. For the 997.1 TT, barely any research and not even a test drive before ordering.
The one thing I did test for the TT on dealer's lot was regular seats versus adaptive sport seats. I have 600K miles of experience in MB seats, including wife's CLK 550. And about 350K miles in Porsche seats, including TT with adaptives. Plus 58K miles in a Lexus IS 350, which are awful seats but is the admittedly bullet proof car we might replace for the occasional 1200 mile RT to FL every couple months. Flimsy reason, I know. We also have 2 grand babes once a week and two small dogs.
I know a Porsche is not about a couple tenths slower 0-60 or a couple mpg worse, but dang, 800 pounds is a hard differential to get over.
If I ever get to the point of a test drive of both, I will know in less than a mile of driving both.
The adaptives are formidable seats. This July did a cross country rt to CA and back 8,300 miles in the TT. I have 2 artificial hips and a sensitive back. Not a problem in the whole 16 day road trip.
My last experience with AS was a 1970 MB 300SEL 6.3
Cost me a bundle to keep the air from leaking out, but I am confident Porsche got it right, so I would order that option.
Did a lot of research before test driving a new 993, drove one less than a mile and wrote up the order. For the 997.1 TT, barely any research and not even a test drive before ordering.
The one thing I did test for the TT on dealer's lot was regular seats versus adaptive sport seats. I have 600K miles of experience in MB seats, including wife's CLK 550. And about 350K miles in Porsche seats, including TT with adaptives. Plus 58K miles in a Lexus IS 350, which are awful seats but is the admittedly bullet proof car we might replace for the occasional 1200 mile RT to FL every couple months. Flimsy reason, I know. We also have 2 grand babes once a week and two small dogs.
I know a Porsche is not about a couple tenths slower 0-60 or a couple mpg worse, but dang, 800 pounds is a hard differential to get over.
If I ever get to the point of a test drive of both, I will know in less than a mile of driving both.
The adaptives are formidable seats. This July did a cross country rt to CA and back 8,300 miles in the TT. I have 2 artificial hips and a sensitive back. Not a problem in the whole 16 day road trip.
My last experience with AS was a 1970 MB 300SEL 6.3
Cost me a bundle to keep the air from leaking out, but I am confident Porsche got it right, so I would order that option.