open letter
05-19-2003, 03:48 PM
#31
Lifetime Rennlist Member
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Steve Lavigne:
<strong>Professor, with prose like that, I'm reminded of a guy named Jonathan from Menlo Park, CA, USA. Do you by chance know him?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I think the good professor was the engineer and crew chief for the ill fated attempt to drive a Lola non-stop from New York to Paris a few years ago. They were doing fine until their tire guy, Jacques LeCar underinflated the tires and the car sank in the Atlantic. That is you, isn't it Professor?
<strong>Professor, with prose like that, I'm reminded of a guy named Jonathan from Menlo Park, CA, USA. Do you by chance know him?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I think the good professor was the engineer and crew chief for the ill fated attempt to drive a Lola non-stop from New York to Paris a few years ago. They were doing fine until their tire guy, Jacques LeCar underinflated the tires and the car sank in the Atlantic. That is you, isn't it Professor?
05-19-2003, 04:55 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
Lola T-70 coupe, actually. It wasn't Jacques...it was his idiot brother-in-law Phillípe LeTanque, who messed up a fuel stop and flooded the carbs. Ah, the French...a nation of waiters...
Mr. Lavigne...I have never been to Menlo Park, CA...and I am not named Jonathan.
HT
Mr. Lavigne...I have never been to Menlo Park, CA...and I am not named Jonathan.
HT
05-19-2003, 04:56 PM
#33
A Banned 'Haiku Victim'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: los angeles, san francisco, phoenix, tokyo, taipei
Posts: 2,367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
some of you are pretty close minded. pretty typical Porsche/BMW/rich guy mentality (not knocking all participants on rennlist, I've met plenty of really nice people here)
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">My name is Damon. I was one of the guys you met at the gas station when your car broke down. My brother Saunders gave you a ride in the black Saab 9000. Your site is fun. I am just amazed how like minds attract. I am sure we will meet again soon. Damon.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">that was actually true. hitch hiking was an very interesting human interaction experience. My Miata blew a headgasket 2 Sundays ago after I instructed at Calclub's Performance Driving Clinic. It was the best thing that could've happened. As I got stuck at Buttonwillow for 4 days, and hung out at HMSA (vintage racing). Made lots of new friends (corner workers, HMSA staff/volunteers, racers, support crew, shop owners), and made some good contacts.
Yep GhettoRacer isn't fitting for some of the high end stuff I do, although GR is more catchy. Trackula is my other nick name... see <a href="http://www.trackula.org" target="_blank">http://www.trackula.org</a>
Make fun all you guys want (I think this thread is probably rather enjoyable to many of you). There's plenty of people that work well with me and my services are in demand (paying gigs or not). Even at the voluteering HPDE events (where I usually instruct in exchange for seat time), I can pick who I want to instruct. I like to work with people who want to come out, learn, and have a good time. To me that is what road racing is all about. Why do you guys think my event will be called Happy Motoring?
here's more babbling for your entertainment.
<a href="http://www.ghettoracer.com/happymotoring/ten-tenth.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.ghettoracer.com/happymotoring/ten-tenth.shtml</a>
<a href="http://www.ghettoracer.com/happymotoring/studentscars.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.ghettoracer.com/happymotoring/studentscars.shtml</a>
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">My name is Damon. I was one of the guys you met at the gas station when your car broke down. My brother Saunders gave you a ride in the black Saab 9000. Your site is fun. I am just amazed how like minds attract. I am sure we will meet again soon. Damon.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">that was actually true. hitch hiking was an very interesting human interaction experience. My Miata blew a headgasket 2 Sundays ago after I instructed at Calclub's Performance Driving Clinic. It was the best thing that could've happened. As I got stuck at Buttonwillow for 4 days, and hung out at HMSA (vintage racing). Made lots of new friends (corner workers, HMSA staff/volunteers, racers, support crew, shop owners), and made some good contacts.
Yep GhettoRacer isn't fitting for some of the high end stuff I do, although GR is more catchy. Trackula is my other nick name... see <a href="http://www.trackula.org" target="_blank">http://www.trackula.org</a>
Make fun all you guys want (I think this thread is probably rather enjoyable to many of you). There's plenty of people that work well with me and my services are in demand (paying gigs or not). Even at the voluteering HPDE events (where I usually instruct in exchange for seat time), I can pick who I want to instruct. I like to work with people who want to come out, learn, and have a good time. To me that is what road racing is all about. Why do you guys think my event will be called Happy Motoring?
here's more babbling for your entertainment.
<a href="http://www.ghettoracer.com/happymotoring/ten-tenth.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.ghettoracer.com/happymotoring/ten-tenth.shtml</a>
<a href="http://www.ghettoracer.com/happymotoring/studentscars.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.ghettoracer.com/happymotoring/studentscars.shtml</a>
05-19-2003, 05:23 PM
#34
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>some of you are pretty close minded. pretty typical Porsche/BMW/rich guy mentality (not knocking all participants on rennlist, I've met plenty of really nice people here)
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Frank,
Nice comment Frank, that should endear you to all on this board...
Take a small dose of friendly advice from me. This letter didn't need to be posted, it served no good but to bring up an argument/discussion that was previously laid to rest.
I can't help but to comment on this quote from your article: "There are some variables such as potentially other cars dropping oil or coolant, or perhaps other dangerous drivers running wild and being hazardous... but these are easily with in the control of the driver if he has a smart head and is fully aware of the surroundings."
Please tell me how you control for this. If you really do have a way to do this you could make a lot of money. I have hit oil in a brake zone and I had absolutely no control over the situation until I hit the grass and had some traction. I was just along for the ride.
<strong>some of you are pretty close minded. pretty typical Porsche/BMW/rich guy mentality (not knocking all participants on rennlist, I've met plenty of really nice people here)
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Frank,
Nice comment Frank, that should endear you to all on this board...
Take a small dose of friendly advice from me. This letter didn't need to be posted, it served no good but to bring up an argument/discussion that was previously laid to rest.
I can't help but to comment on this quote from your article: "There are some variables such as potentially other cars dropping oil or coolant, or perhaps other dangerous drivers running wild and being hazardous... but these are easily with in the control of the driver if he has a smart head and is fully aware of the surroundings."
Please tell me how you control for this. If you really do have a way to do this you could make a lot of money. I have hit oil in a brake zone and I had absolutely no control over the situation until I hit the grass and had some traction. I was just along for the ride.
05-19-2003, 06:06 PM
#35
Lifetime Rennlist Member
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>some of you are pretty close minded. pretty typical Porsche/BMW/rich guy mentality (not knocking all participants on rennlist, I've met plenty of really nice people here)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You need to check a mirror if you want to talk about being close minded.
You assert that DE's are almost like racing. A bunch of people are telling you they aren't even close. I agree with them. I have both raced and done DE's. Those I recognize who are telling you this have both DE and racing experience. You, by your own admission, have never raced yet reject their comments. So what you THINK racing would be like (if you ever did it) is better information than the comments from those who have experienced it. I think that pretty well defines close mindedness.
Your comment about being in control of a car when hitting oil or coolant is absurd. How many times, in your vast experience, have you hit significant amounts of oil or coolant? I don't mean the usual little bit where the car does a twitch and you think there is oil - I mean a puddle of the stuff. I have hit real oil or coolant 5-6 times. In only ONE case, was I able to maintain control of the car -that was because the guy two positions in front of me gave the universal oil signal - he crashed into the wall, letting those behind know it was slippery. So unless you have hit oil/coolant a few times and have some magic formula for maintining control, I suggest that is a very cloes minded approach. On top of that, if offends me as an instructor, because your comments give students an impression that is not correct. Should other instructors now have to deal with students who think you CAN maintain control of a car in oil/coolant if you are any good?
Finally, I can not beleive your comment that DEs are inherently safe, otherwise we wouldn't do them. BS! How many cars have you seen crashed at DE's? You know better than to think this is a safe activity. Why do we wear helmets and other safety equipment? Why do we have an ambulance at the track? Why have I seen people taken off in said ambulance to the hospital from a DE? This is one area where DE's have a lot in common with racing. While the chances of an incident at a DE are lower than racing, the effects of the incident are not really different. DEs are dangerous. I base that on having seen a few dozen cars crashed at DE's - having seen people taken away in ambulances from DE crashes - having seen many injuries and severe car damage in racing - having friends who have lost limbs in racing accidents (in circumstances that could also have been at a DE) and having seen people die on race tracks. Do you have comprable experiences, or are you being close minded about this aspect?
You may develop a decent realtionship with most students at the track, but you are making a fool of yourself on these boards. You also make other instructors look bad as potential students get the idea that all instructors have the same attitude you convey. If you need proof, I can post part of an eMail I got due to your past posts on this board. I also have an eMail from a student of yours that was none too happy about his session - I even tried to tell you what kind of problems you were creating for yourself and you pretty well blew me off.
Do your thing at the track and try to have fun, but don't expect support or understanding from this forum when you post the kind of things you do. I guess the folks on this board will just have to live with "pretty typical Porsche/BMW/rich guy mentality"
<strong>some of you are pretty close minded. pretty typical Porsche/BMW/rich guy mentality (not knocking all participants on rennlist, I've met plenty of really nice people here)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You need to check a mirror if you want to talk about being close minded.
You assert that DE's are almost like racing. A bunch of people are telling you they aren't even close. I agree with them. I have both raced and done DE's. Those I recognize who are telling you this have both DE and racing experience. You, by your own admission, have never raced yet reject their comments. So what you THINK racing would be like (if you ever did it) is better information than the comments from those who have experienced it. I think that pretty well defines close mindedness.
Your comment about being in control of a car when hitting oil or coolant is absurd. How many times, in your vast experience, have you hit significant amounts of oil or coolant? I don't mean the usual little bit where the car does a twitch and you think there is oil - I mean a puddle of the stuff. I have hit real oil or coolant 5-6 times. In only ONE case, was I able to maintain control of the car -that was because the guy two positions in front of me gave the universal oil signal - he crashed into the wall, letting those behind know it was slippery. So unless you have hit oil/coolant a few times and have some magic formula for maintining control, I suggest that is a very cloes minded approach. On top of that, if offends me as an instructor, because your comments give students an impression that is not correct. Should other instructors now have to deal with students who think you CAN maintain control of a car in oil/coolant if you are any good?
Finally, I can not beleive your comment that DEs are inherently safe, otherwise we wouldn't do them. BS! How many cars have you seen crashed at DE's? You know better than to think this is a safe activity. Why do we wear helmets and other safety equipment? Why do we have an ambulance at the track? Why have I seen people taken off in said ambulance to the hospital from a DE? This is one area where DE's have a lot in common with racing. While the chances of an incident at a DE are lower than racing, the effects of the incident are not really different. DEs are dangerous. I base that on having seen a few dozen cars crashed at DE's - having seen people taken away in ambulances from DE crashes - having seen many injuries and severe car damage in racing - having friends who have lost limbs in racing accidents (in circumstances that could also have been at a DE) and having seen people die on race tracks. Do you have comprable experiences, or are you being close minded about this aspect?
You may develop a decent realtionship with most students at the track, but you are making a fool of yourself on these boards. You also make other instructors look bad as potential students get the idea that all instructors have the same attitude you convey. If you need proof, I can post part of an eMail I got due to your past posts on this board. I also have an eMail from a student of yours that was none too happy about his session - I even tried to tell you what kind of problems you were creating for yourself and you pretty well blew me off.
Do your thing at the track and try to have fun, but don't expect support or understanding from this forum when you post the kind of things you do. I guess the folks on this board will just have to live with "pretty typical Porsche/BMW/rich guy mentality"
05-19-2003, 06:08 PM
#36
A Banned 'Haiku Victim'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: los angeles, san francisco, phoenix, tokyo, taipei
Posts: 2,367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Nice comment Frank, that should endear you to all on this board...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I'm not sure if you are really complimenting me, or not. Probably not. But anyway, the ones who aren't snobbish shouldn't take offense to my comment.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
Take a small dose of friendly advice from me. This letter didn't need to be posted, it served no good but to bring up an argument/discussion that was previously laid to rest.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">There is a reason. TracQuest is fairly close to the Rennlist, and the collaboration is now more than ever. I have instructed for Todd for 1.5 years, at 22 TQ days. Todd knows me well, and he knows that I take instructing seriously, and he thinks I'm doing my job just fine. However, the perception out there isn't (especially since the late 2002 threads). I wrote this open letter in hopes people will understand me. I am who I am.
Despite my best efforts of fulfilling my duty as Todd's instructor (I've even gone out to Mid-Ohio twice, and is planning on Watkins Glen & Road Atlanta too), some people continues to question my intentions as an instructor. This letter is raw, and exactly how I feel. One may think that I'm cocky and arrogant (whereas I just feel I'm confident), but can anyone say my heart is in the wrong place?
If my heart is in the wrong place, I don't want to make it hard on Todd. Todd likes my work. But if my "image" isn't good for the TracQuest event, then I don't want to make it hard on him, and I will disassociate my self as TQ instructor. Todd will have no problem with me doing private instructions at his events, and he and I will remain good friends as we have been.
I'm hoping people can see pass my bad writing skills. Perhaps give me the benefit of doubt, and talk to me at track. That's all I ask.
I've ran with so many differnet clubs and event, and TQ is top notch. I've brought many participants to TQ, and I've helped many fall in love with open tracking. Personally I'd hate to lose the affiliations of being a TQ instructor (TQ instructors are all high quality which I've been very proud to be associated with) and as cocky as it may sound, it would be TQ's loss to lose me.
No matter the outcome of this thread, I highly recommend all of you to attend a TracQuest event. I will continue to instruct for many other clubs in California as well as private instruction. One other high end event that I recommend whole hearted is of course, Motorsports Club of Beverly Hills, where I'm getting more involved. I invite all of you So Cal people to check MCBH out and feel free to contact me if you have any sort of open tracking related questions. I will try to help you.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I can't help but to comment on this quote from your article: "There are some variables such as potentially other cars dropping oil or coolant, or perhaps other dangerous drivers running wild and being hazardous... but these are easily with in the control of the driver if he has a smart head and is fully aware of the surroundings."
Please tell me how you control for this. If you really do have a way to do this you could make a lot of money. I have hit oil in a brake zone and I had absolutely no control over the situation until I hit the grass and had some traction. I was just along for the ride.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">As track organizors for opentrack/DE, we make efforts to make the environement safe. That means things like tech inspections, well trained corner works and safety crew... and we try to control the environment as much as we can. Such as black flagging cars with mechanical problems, or black flagging dangerous drivers. These are the things I'm refering to. I've seen plenty of wrecks at HPDE's. I would say 9 out of 10 or more are 'cause by driver's error.
Motorsports is inherently dangerous. You can have a car travelling easily above 100 mph, and do something wrong/silly, you can die easily. BUT, that's what HPDE is about, we're teaching people how to do it in a safe manner.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
Take a small dose of friendly advice from me. This letter didn't need to be posted, it served no good but to bring up an argument/discussion that was previously laid to rest.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">There is a reason. TracQuest is fairly close to the Rennlist, and the collaboration is now more than ever. I have instructed for Todd for 1.5 years, at 22 TQ days. Todd knows me well, and he knows that I take instructing seriously, and he thinks I'm doing my job just fine. However, the perception out there isn't (especially since the late 2002 threads). I wrote this open letter in hopes people will understand me. I am who I am.
Despite my best efforts of fulfilling my duty as Todd's instructor (I've even gone out to Mid-Ohio twice, and is planning on Watkins Glen & Road Atlanta too), some people continues to question my intentions as an instructor. This letter is raw, and exactly how I feel. One may think that I'm cocky and arrogant (whereas I just feel I'm confident), but can anyone say my heart is in the wrong place?
If my heart is in the wrong place, I don't want to make it hard on Todd. Todd likes my work. But if my "image" isn't good for the TracQuest event, then I don't want to make it hard on him, and I will disassociate my self as TQ instructor. Todd will have no problem with me doing private instructions at his events, and he and I will remain good friends as we have been.
I'm hoping people can see pass my bad writing skills. Perhaps give me the benefit of doubt, and talk to me at track. That's all I ask.
I've ran with so many differnet clubs and event, and TQ is top notch. I've brought many participants to TQ, and I've helped many fall in love with open tracking. Personally I'd hate to lose the affiliations of being a TQ instructor (TQ instructors are all high quality which I've been very proud to be associated with) and as cocky as it may sound, it would be TQ's loss to lose me.
No matter the outcome of this thread, I highly recommend all of you to attend a TracQuest event. I will continue to instruct for many other clubs in California as well as private instruction. One other high end event that I recommend whole hearted is of course, Motorsports Club of Beverly Hills, where I'm getting more involved. I invite all of you So Cal people to check MCBH out and feel free to contact me if you have any sort of open tracking related questions. I will try to help you.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I can't help but to comment on this quote from your article: "There are some variables such as potentially other cars dropping oil or coolant, or perhaps other dangerous drivers running wild and being hazardous... but these are easily with in the control of the driver if he has a smart head and is fully aware of the surroundings."
Please tell me how you control for this. If you really do have a way to do this you could make a lot of money. I have hit oil in a brake zone and I had absolutely no control over the situation until I hit the grass and had some traction. I was just along for the ride.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">As track organizors for opentrack/DE, we make efforts to make the environement safe. That means things like tech inspections, well trained corner works and safety crew... and we try to control the environment as much as we can. Such as black flagging cars with mechanical problems, or black flagging dangerous drivers. These are the things I'm refering to. I've seen plenty of wrecks at HPDE's. I would say 9 out of 10 or more are 'cause by driver's error.
Motorsports is inherently dangerous. You can have a car travelling easily above 100 mph, and do something wrong/silly, you can die easily. BUT, that's what HPDE is about, we're teaching people how to do it in a safe manner.
05-19-2003, 06:24 PM
#38
A Banned 'Haiku Victim'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: los angeles, san francisco, phoenix, tokyo, taipei
Posts: 2,367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You need to check a mirror if you want to talk about being close minded.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">How many different clubs of HPDE/open track events have you run with? The way each club is run can be VASTLY different... the political structure, participant skills/friendness/atmosphere/attitude, official worker skills/friendness/atmosphere/attitude. Don't assume I'm refering to any organization in particular.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You assert that DE's are almost like racing. A bunch of people are telling you they aren't even close. I agree with them. I have both raced and done DE's. Those I recognize who are telling you this have both DE and racing experience. You, by your own admission, have never raced yet reject their comments. So what you THINK racing would be like (if you ever did it) is better information than the comments from those who have experienced it. I think that pretty well defines close mindedness.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I didn't say ALL HPDE's are close. Some organizations advanced/instructor groups are very close (you said so yourself once). I think you guys are automatically assuming I'm talking about a TQ event, or something. NASA group 4 is often just about racing speed except for contacts.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Your comment about being in control of a car when hitting oil or coolant is absurd. How many times, in your vast experience, have you hit significant amounts of oil or coolant? I don't mean the usual little bit where the car does a twitch and you think there is oil - I mean a puddle of the stuff. I have hit real oil or coolant 5-6 times. In only ONE case, was I able to maintain control of the car -that was because the guy two positions in front of me gave the universal oil signal - he crashed into the wall, letting those behind know it was slippery. So unless you have hit oil/coolant a few times and have some magic formula for maintining control, I suggest that is a very cloes minded approach. On top of that, if offends me as an instructor, because your comments give students an impression that is not correct. Should other instructors now have to deal with students who think you CAN maintain control of a car in oil/coolant if you are any good?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You're sorting of making a point for me. Out of all of my track days driving and instructing (fairly considerable amount of hours if you consider all the hours riding as passenger), I've never hit oil/coolent once at full speed. I've seen the debris flags (seen snakes/rabbits/oil/coolent/cars) on many occasions however (thank you alert corner workers!).
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Finally, I can not beleive your comment that DEs are inherently safe, otherwise we wouldn't do them. BS! How many cars have you seen crashed at DE's? You know better than to think this is a safe activity. Why do we wear helmets and other safety equipment? Why do we have an ambulance at the track? Why have I seen people taken off in said ambulance to the hospital from a DE? This is one area where DE's have a lot in common with racing. While the chances of an incident at a DE are lower than racing, the effects of the incident are not really different. DEs are dangerous. I base that on having seen a few dozen cars crashed at DE's - having seen people taken away in ambulances from DE crashes - having seen many injuries and severe car damage in racing - having friends who have lost limbs in racing accidents (in circumstances that could also have been at a DE) and having seen people die on race tracks. Do you have comprable experiences, or are you being close minded about this aspect?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">My bad writing again... I should've say motorsports is inherently dangerous, but the school environment can be made fairly safe.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You may develop a decent realtionship with most students at the track, but you are making a fool of yourself on these boards. You also make other instructors look bad as potential students get the idea that all instructors have the same attitude you convey. If you need proof, I can post part of an eMail I got due to your past posts on this board. I also have an eMail from a student of yours that was none too happy about his session - I even tried to tell you what kind of problems you were creating for yourself and you pretty well blew me off.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I'd like to see that. I work well with majority of students, can't say all of them.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You assert that DE's are almost like racing. A bunch of people are telling you they aren't even close. I agree with them. I have both raced and done DE's. Those I recognize who are telling you this have both DE and racing experience. You, by your own admission, have never raced yet reject their comments. So what you THINK racing would be like (if you ever did it) is better information than the comments from those who have experienced it. I think that pretty well defines close mindedness.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I didn't say ALL HPDE's are close. Some organizations advanced/instructor groups are very close (you said so yourself once). I think you guys are automatically assuming I'm talking about a TQ event, or something. NASA group 4 is often just about racing speed except for contacts.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Your comment about being in control of a car when hitting oil or coolant is absurd. How many times, in your vast experience, have you hit significant amounts of oil or coolant? I don't mean the usual little bit where the car does a twitch and you think there is oil - I mean a puddle of the stuff. I have hit real oil or coolant 5-6 times. In only ONE case, was I able to maintain control of the car -that was because the guy two positions in front of me gave the universal oil signal - he crashed into the wall, letting those behind know it was slippery. So unless you have hit oil/coolant a few times and have some magic formula for maintining control, I suggest that is a very cloes minded approach. On top of that, if offends me as an instructor, because your comments give students an impression that is not correct. Should other instructors now have to deal with students who think you CAN maintain control of a car in oil/coolant if you are any good?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You're sorting of making a point for me. Out of all of my track days driving and instructing (fairly considerable amount of hours if you consider all the hours riding as passenger), I've never hit oil/coolent once at full speed. I've seen the debris flags (seen snakes/rabbits/oil/coolent/cars) on many occasions however (thank you alert corner workers!).
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Finally, I can not beleive your comment that DEs are inherently safe, otherwise we wouldn't do them. BS! How many cars have you seen crashed at DE's? You know better than to think this is a safe activity. Why do we wear helmets and other safety equipment? Why do we have an ambulance at the track? Why have I seen people taken off in said ambulance to the hospital from a DE? This is one area where DE's have a lot in common with racing. While the chances of an incident at a DE are lower than racing, the effects of the incident are not really different. DEs are dangerous. I base that on having seen a few dozen cars crashed at DE's - having seen people taken away in ambulances from DE crashes - having seen many injuries and severe car damage in racing - having friends who have lost limbs in racing accidents (in circumstances that could also have been at a DE) and having seen people die on race tracks. Do you have comprable experiences, or are you being close minded about this aspect?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">My bad writing again... I should've say motorsports is inherently dangerous, but the school environment can be made fairly safe.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You may develop a decent realtionship with most students at the track, but you are making a fool of yourself on these boards. You also make other instructors look bad as potential students get the idea that all instructors have the same attitude you convey. If you need proof, I can post part of an eMail I got due to your past posts on this board. I also have an eMail from a student of yours that was none too happy about his session - I even tried to tell you what kind of problems you were creating for yourself and you pretty well blew me off.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I'd like to see that. I work well with majority of students, can't say all of them.
05-19-2003, 06:25 PM
#39
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
[QUOTE]I can't help but to comment on this quote from your article: "There are some variables such as potentially other cars dropping oil or coolant, or perhaps other dangerous drivers running wild and being hazardous... but these are easily with in the control of the driver if he has a smart head and is fully aware of the surroundings."
Please tell me how you control for this. If you really do have a way to do this you could make a lot of money. I have hit oil in a brake zone and I had absolutely no control over the situation until I hit the grass and had some traction. I was just along for the ride.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">As track organizors for opentrack/DE, we make efforts to make the environement safe. That means things like tech inspections, well trained corner works and safety crew... and we try to control the environment as much as we can. Such as black flagging cars with mechanical problems, or black flagging dangerous drivers. These are the things I'm refering to. I've seen plenty of wrecks at HPDE's. I would say 9 out of 10 or more are 'cause by driver's error.
Motorsports is inherently dangerous. You can have a car travelling easily above 100 mph, and do something wrong/silly, you can die easily. BUT, that's what HPDE is about, we're teaching people how to do it in a safe manner.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Frank,
You are not answering the question presented but now claiming you can control what gets spilled on the track?? Can you really predict when someone will lose their engine or have a filter come off, or overheat and lose their coolant?
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
[QUOTE]I can't help but to comment on this quote from your article: "There are some variables such as potentially other cars dropping oil or coolant, or perhaps other dangerous drivers running wild and being hazardous... but these are easily with in the control of the driver if he has a smart head and is fully aware of the surroundings."
Please tell me how you control for this. If you really do have a way to do this you could make a lot of money. I have hit oil in a brake zone and I had absolutely no control over the situation until I hit the grass and had some traction. I was just along for the ride.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">As track organizors for opentrack/DE, we make efforts to make the environement safe. That means things like tech inspections, well trained corner works and safety crew... and we try to control the environment as much as we can. Such as black flagging cars with mechanical problems, or black flagging dangerous drivers. These are the things I'm refering to. I've seen plenty of wrecks at HPDE's. I would say 9 out of 10 or more are 'cause by driver's error.
Motorsports is inherently dangerous. You can have a car travelling easily above 100 mph, and do something wrong/silly, you can die easily. BUT, that's what HPDE is about, we're teaching people how to do it in a safe manner.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Frank,
You are not answering the question presented but now claiming you can control what gets spilled on the track?? Can you really predict when someone will lose their engine or have a filter come off, or overheat and lose their coolant?
05-19-2003, 06:26 PM
#40
A Banned 'Haiku Victim'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: los angeles, san francisco, phoenix, tokyo, taipei
Posts: 2,367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by DJ:
<strong>"you can die easily. BUT, that's what HPDE is about"
I'm sorry, but that's just downright funny.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Dang it DJ. You're killing me (I'm killing myself rather...). I best to read over my stuff right now.
hey I ran Pahrump over the weekend. I will have to disagree with you that it is better than Cali tracks although it is certinly a fun circuit. but i think Radicals makes any circuit fun.
Sears Point still #1 in my book.
<strong>"you can die easily. BUT, that's what HPDE is about"
I'm sorry, but that's just downright funny.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Dang it DJ. You're killing me (I'm killing myself rather...). I best to read over my stuff right now.
hey I ran Pahrump over the weekend. I will have to disagree with you that it is better than Cali tracks although it is certinly a fun circuit. but i think Radicals makes any circuit fun.
Sears Point still #1 in my book.
05-19-2003, 06:36 PM
#41
Haiku Grasshoppa
Rennlist Member
Can I Drove Your Car?
Rennlist Member
Can I Drove Your Car?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Grants Pass, OR
Posts: 1,171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pahrump is a highly technical track. The fun is that if you don't get every corner perfect, you're slow. It's very difficult to get around it really quickly. I like that.
Also, the Radicals are not really all that well suited to Pahrump, as almost all the turns are too low speed for the aero-effects to come into play. The 993 was actually more fun to drive there. Especially in the rain.
Also, the Radicals are not really all that well suited to Pahrump, as almost all the turns are too low speed for the aero-effects to come into play. The 993 was actually more fun to drive there. Especially in the rain.
05-19-2003, 06:41 PM
#42
A Banned 'Haiku Victim'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: los angeles, san francisco, phoenix, tokyo, taipei
Posts: 2,367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You are not answering the question presented but now claiming you can control what gets spilled on the track?? Can you really predict when someone will lose their engine or have a filter come off, or overheat and lose their coolant?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">What I meant is, the driver has significant control of how safe to track the car. Obviously one can not predict what will mechnically go wrong with the car in front of him. However, one can choose to leave say 100 ft (or more) of distance in between. If the car in front have problems, there will be plenty of time to react. Great enough distance, there are corner works to help you out.
I hope this makes sense.
I hope this makes sense.
05-19-2003, 06:45 PM
#43
A Banned 'Haiku Victim'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: los angeles, san francisco, phoenix, tokyo, taipei
Posts: 2,367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by DJ:
<strong>Pahrump is a highly technical track. The fun is that if you don't get every corner perfect, you're slow. It's very difficult to get around it really quickly. I like that.
Also, the Radicals are not really all that well suited to Pahrump, as almost all the turns are too low speed for the aero-effects to come into play. The 993 was actually more fun to drive there. Especially in the rain.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I agree it is very technical. Very good track for students to learn lots of things actually. It doesn't have enough elevation changes nor enough speed corners for my taste. More of a medium speed track.
Definitly a worthy track to travel to. I just can't believe you like it better than SP.
<strong>Pahrump is a highly technical track. The fun is that if you don't get every corner perfect, you're slow. It's very difficult to get around it really quickly. I like that.
Also, the Radicals are not really all that well suited to Pahrump, as almost all the turns are too low speed for the aero-effects to come into play. The 993 was actually more fun to drive there. Especially in the rain.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I agree it is very technical. Very good track for students to learn lots of things actually. It doesn't have enough elevation changes nor enough speed corners for my taste. More of a medium speed track.
Definitly a worthy track to travel to. I just can't believe you like it better than SP.
05-19-2003, 06:50 PM
#44
Haiku Grasshoppa
Rennlist Member
Can I Drove Your Car?
Rennlist Member
Can I Drove Your Car?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Grants Pass, OR
Posts: 1,171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I agree it is very technical. Very good track for students to learn lots of things actually. It doesn't have enough elevation changes nor enough speed corners for my taste. More of a medium speed track.
Definitly a worthy track to travel to. I just can't believe you like it better than SP."
Maybe you just weren't going fast enough? What were your lap times?
Definitly a worthy track to travel to. I just can't believe you like it better than SP."
Maybe you just weren't going fast enough? What were your lap times?
05-19-2003, 06:57 PM
#45
Lifetime Rennlist Member
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>However, one can choose to leave say 100 ft (or more) of distance in between. If the car in front have problems, there will be plenty of time to react. Great enough distance, there are corner works to help you out.
I hope this makes sense.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Frank,
This shows a major lack of experience - it just does not work that way. The SCCA workers are the best around - way better than the usualy group we get at DE's. They almost are never able to get a debris flag out because they see fluid on the track. The way it works is that when a car or two or three do some wild spins, they suspect there is fluid on the track and put out the flag. Following 100 yards back will help keep you from hitting the car in front of you, but don't expect flags to help you out. Again, I would have to ask how many times you have actually experienced these very slippery conditions? It is one thing to form opinions and estimates based on what you THINK MIGHT happen, but to convey these to new students as gospel does a great disservice to everyone.
<strong>However, one can choose to leave say 100 ft (or more) of distance in between. If the car in front have problems, there will be plenty of time to react. Great enough distance, there are corner works to help you out.
I hope this makes sense.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Frank,
This shows a major lack of experience - it just does not work that way. The SCCA workers are the best around - way better than the usualy group we get at DE's. They almost are never able to get a debris flag out because they see fluid on the track. The way it works is that when a car or two or three do some wild spins, they suspect there is fluid on the track and put out the flag. Following 100 yards back will help keep you from hitting the car in front of you, but don't expect flags to help you out. Again, I would have to ask how many times you have actually experienced these very slippery conditions? It is one thing to form opinions and estimates based on what you THINK MIGHT happen, but to convey these to new students as gospel does a great disservice to everyone.