needmoregarage

Brake pads and rotors are a whole lot cheaper to replace as consumables.

I know using the engine to slow the car can have it's place on occasion - but I would rather press the brake pedal for a more immediate and predictable response. I don't know how much engine braking stresses the engine (maybe not at all?) but if you're not on the brake pedal, and you're slowing the car with the engine - aren't you coasting? And what's the point of that?

Matt - maybe I missed it but I'm assuming you've decided to keep it. Glad to see you enjoying it!!

jphughan

Engine braking and pedal braking do not have to be mutually exclusive, nor is anyone suggesting that engine braking should be adopted instead of pedal braking. The point is that if in pedal braking by itself cannot generate the maximum negative Gs that the tires on the current surface can provide (which is still an open question pending some data from the experiment I suggested earlier), then engine braking has a use in increasing the total amount of possible deceleration. If on the other hand the brakes can max out the tires' grip right from the beginning of the braking zone even at high speeds, then yes engine braking would be moot -- but that has not been my personal experience from an admittedly small and early number of track days.

matttheboatman

Hello Need More Garage,

I hope you and your co-driver are doing well these days!

This discussion started as my discovery that 2nd gear makes all the difference (for me) on the track. The virtues I extoll about what seemed to be a ridiculously tall 2nd gear included;
* considerably more power coming out of a turn
* a more sensitive car, which allows for better throttle steering, which leads to
* understeer elimination,
and finally,
* notable additional stopping powerr

The last one seems to be in conflict with the way most people drive their GT4s. In my case, it may be that I am not using all the brake pedal and benefit from trying to get my downshifts timed correctly so as to use most of the RPMs for additional stopping power from engine braking. There is one turn in particular at NOLA, turn 3, where if I were to just use brakes, or leave it in 3rd, I would blow my turn-in point (done it several times!). So, for me at least, engine braking does improve my deceleration and is a natural part of the eloquent dance steps I've trained myself to do when transitioning from a straight to a corner.

Your question, am I coasting? Well, I do right foot brake so I try not to coast. In other words, i'm on the brakes hard as physically possible with my right foot when my left foot engages the clutch to downshift and grab the additional stopping power with engine braking, particularly beneficial wherever an entry in 2nd is possible.

I hope this threads results in more people testing 2nd gear where possible and discovering the benefits I derived from same. Even if you don't engine brake at all, I predict it will be an eye opener and definitely shave some time off your personal best, and make the car simply more fun to drive quick. But, please don't test it in the rain with the ESC off!

Eric5280

^Hey Matt, this got me thinking; when was the last time you bled your brakes? After 10-15 days, you may have air in your lines if you are giving max pedal pressure and your face is still attached. With mine and other GT4 owners I know, we can hit ABS with little effort and the goal is actually to keep from doing that under threshold braking. Just a thought.

matttheboatman

Good suggestion. I do stop quicker than all the other cars that are out there. I attributed that mostly to the fact that I'm in a GT4! Maybe I'm into ABS all the time. ? My instructors taught me that the only place they don't want to see smooth is in the initial application of the brakes when going straight. To get on them, like you mean it, really really hard. I'm guessing that the ABS kicks in everytime I do that.

edit - my personal challenge has been to learn to brake less, or more accurately, learn to get off the brakes smoothly and slowly so I carry more speed into the corners.

jphughan

Air in the lines doesn't reduce braking capacity unless it's so bad that your pedal is all the way on the floor. Otherwise, you can still achieve max braking, but you'll just need to press the brake pedal down farther than you would normally have to.

Interesting, I try to be smooth but still fast on the brakes even in a straight line and encourage others to do the same rather than catapulting their foot onto the pedal. I guess it may not actually be faster, but it certainly feels safer than smashing the pedal at high speed. And yes, getting off the brakes properly while turning into a corner is absolutely an art form and worth some real time. Jackie Stewart said something like he learned to apply the brakes properly very quickly but spent a whole career learning how to release them properly.

GrantG

I agree about getting off the brakes smoothly. But as far as braking less, I think you should try braking later (but really hard when it's time to brake) - this seems to have best effect on laptimes for me...

I agree with Eric about having fresh and better than stock fluid (I like Endless RF-650, what Porsche uses for its race cars) and track pads (Brembo RE10's my personal favorite if they last as long as claimed).

Eric5280

ABS is fairly violent and happens when you have exceeded the tire grip. You'll know when you hit it. I'd bleed your brakes, sounds like they might be way down on stopping power.

As far as the sharp initial braking input at high speed, you may want to ask another coach about that. Randy Pobst did a cool video on braking if you guys haven't seen it.

GTgears

Yep, that second gear is very well suited to most US tracks. Its the 2-3 shift up that leaves a bit to be desired.

matttheboatman

So true. Less of a hardware issue, more courage required. I've had instructors tell me "I have a very good sense of self preservation". :0)

Great quote and so true!

That was very enjoyable, thanks for sharing. This is the most entertaining video I've seen with him in it - he is a darn good actor and obviously knows his stuff when it comes to racing.