Caveman

Hi Guys,

No flame intended I've just read this whole post and would like to award you the Top Trumps Award for the best "started interesting but then degenerated into a dull arguement over technicalities" post.

My two cents:

Who cares who was quickest round? These things are nearly always faked by manufacturers providing "optimised" cars for testers so I never take them too seriously. I think it's great that BMW have managed to create a car as quick as as a GT3 for a lot less money. Good luck to them. Let's face it, anyone with the money will go for the Porsche any day as it is a real purpose built sports car but for those with less money available who don't want to risk second hand (more fool them!) they can still get something that goes almost as well.

Cheers,

David

LSM

Actually, BMW does refer to it as the Sequential MANUAL gearbox. It is not a torque converter system. It is an actual manual trans with the clutch actuated hydrolically. It is definately a manual gearbox albeit without a third pedal.

-Lou

ked

Isn't it great when a thread on "fast cars at the Ring" devolves into the semantics of just what IS an automatic transmission? Where does this all leave the Laycock Preselector?

Adrian

Dear Lou,
In the doucments I have it is called the Sequential M3 gearbox (SMGII).
I think it will take some time to convince people like me that you can have a two pedal manual transmission.
This is a not unlike when PCNA put out the 964 Carrera 4 owners manual and called the traction control system the Porsche Dynamic All Wheel Drive Control, giving people who still to this day think they can switch from AWD to 2WD or when the PDAS fails you are automatically switched to 2WD or RWD.
How did this start or the thread change. Because I drove a M3 CSL and said that it was an automatic which was a disappointment to me when I first hopped in. I was expecting a real lightweight 3 pedal six speed RS style M3. The transmission upchanging was lumpy and it did not make me smile. It is a great car but not my kinda car. I also question that in a fair fight that the M3 CSL could possibly beat the GT-3 around anywhere seeing as the engine power output is the same 360 HP and the GT-3 is somewhat lighter. Then the flamethrowers came out.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

LSM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Adrian
[B]Dear Lou,
In the doucments I have it is called the Sequential M3 gearbox (SMGII).
I think it will take some time to convince people like me that you can have a two pedal manual transmission.
This is a not unlike when PCNA put out the 964 Carrera 4 owners manual and called the traction control system the Porsche Dynamic All Wheel Drive Control, giving people who still to this day think they can switch from AWD to 2WD or when the PDAS fails you are automatically switched to 2WD or RWD.
How did this start or the thread change. Because I drove a M3 CSL and said that it was an automatic which was a disappointment to me when I first hopped in. I was expecting a real lightweight 3 pedal six speed RS style M3. The transmission upchanging was lumpy and it did not make me smile. It is a great car but not my kinda car. I also question that in a fair fight that the M3 CSL could possibly beat the GT-3 around anywhere seeing as the engine power output is the same 360 HP and the GT-3 is somewhat lighter. Then the flamethrowers came out.
Ciao,
Adrian

I do not me to flame you and mentioned before, I was not trying to flame you. I prefer three pedals myself, but, it is ineffiecient and human error is high. The F1 cars all have sequential gearboxes becuase they are more efficient and can be driven faster. The reason for the SMG is that it is faster on a track than a traditional clutch period.

-Lou

pig4bill

Fair enough.

In Switzerland it is an automatic. In the U.S. it is not. Since you are in Switzerland and I am in the U.S. we are both correct. Sort of.

NetManiac

Keeping with the off topic nature of this thread...

It may be important to point out the difference in the components here. The Sequential Manual Gearbox should be distinguished from the clutch mechanism (be it auto, semi-auto, or manual). I think Adrian is lumping the SMG in with an auto because of its clutch. Motorcycles have been using SMGs forever, but I wouldn't call all motorcycle transmissions automatics. I agree an "Automatic Transmission" as we have known them in the past, suck! But an SMG with the right clutch would, I suspect, impress even Adrian .

I don't know that much about BMW's SMG. But Porsche has been testing them in the Alex Job Racing Porsche's for the last few ALMS races (at least I am assuming they are Porsche Motorsport transmissions). These SMG's are pretty bada$$ if you ask me. They had an in car camera on one of the drivers feet during one of the races and it was pretty cool watching the guy shift. His upshifts would be clutchless, but he would jab the clutch in really quickly during a downshift. Very smooth and very, very, very fast shifts. A lot of race teams are starting to use the SMG, not just F1.

Speaking of F1, their SMG's auto upshift, so all the driver has to do is mash the throttle. But they MUST manually downshift.

Adrian

Dear Mike,
In my original thread I said I was not impressed with the upchanging of the SMG but I was impressed with its downchanging. To me this SMG is a major advancement on older transmissions including tiptronic. I have read quite a bit of where Porsche want to go with these new transmissions as well. Most of the German motoring magazines have been running articles on them and Porsche have in Christophorus a couple of times. These transmissions are not Porsche designed but they are Porsche tweaked.
I liked the BMW M3 CSL but it did not make me smile, it did not say to me, I gotta get me one of these puppies. To me personally it was a major disappointment in the fact that it was not what I expected.
I also stand by the fact that in my opinion there is no way that this M3 I drove could possibly beat a GT-3 around any track anywhere. It is simply too heavy when compared to a GT-3 for approximately the same engine power.
One point to David. I care about the facts and the truth. What type of transmission is fitted was a little bit of fun for me. I have spent five years on rennlist helping people fix their Porsches. Rarely do I get the chance to argue, discuss and let off a bit of steam. However if any manufacturer is going to make claims and this includes Porsche they had better be correct in my eyes and not set up. I have a little time in the GT-3 seat and I have a little time (40 mins) in a M3 CSL. I believe with my expertise I can judge basic performance in this time. The M3 I drove which was a standard road registered version could not take in any way or form a standard road version of a GT-3. Given equal experience of drivers, same road conditions and the equivalent performance rubber.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

LSM

Apparently, the system BMW uses is currently the best on the market. In S6 mode, shifts are performed in as little as.8milliseconds In comparison, the Ferrari system which is hailed everywhere, takes 1.2ms. It definately takes some getting used to, but, I am no pro and even though I prefer the three pedal gearbox, I can drive much faster with the SMG.

-Lou

rockitman

There BMW goes again trying to compete against a race car...I mean street car....ahhhh street/race car...That's It!!!!. They are out of their league when it comes to the GT3..."Naturally aspirated poetry in motion"...Although the M3 would not be a bad car to commute to work in...

hatchback

I agree with Adrian on the bigger point, that manufacturers are abusing the meaning of the words "manual" and "automatic". Manual should mean "you do it" and automatic should mean "the machine does it". By this common language notion, the tiptronic and the SMG both offer automatic and semi-automatic modes. Neither will let you exceed the redline or let you start in 6th gear without shifting for you, so even the "manual" mode is pretty automatic. But somehow automatic transmission has come to mean "torque converter" and manual transmission has come to mean "clutch" in the enthusiast community.

DaveGordon

I read somewhere that if you choose to have the Pilot Sport Cup tyres fitted upon delivery, then BMW make you sign a disclaimer absolving responsibilty if you crash it in the wet...

Should give you some idea what those tyres are intended for..


Edit: Oops. Read the rest of the thread, Dave. Sorry all.

SteveD

I read this thread and laughed. It's an example of how a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. I own an M3 CSL but I've owned performance BMWs and Porsches in parellel for more than a decade. I'm a member of Porsche Club GB and have owned 928 GT, 968 CS, 993 RS, 996 C2, 996 GT3, Boxster S and have raced a 964 RS. I know how good Porsches can be but also how good a BMW can be. I've no axe to grind since I love both brands and can see each for what it is.

A couple of points just to clear things up. Firstly the M3 CSL weighs less than both 996 GT-3 (series 1) and series 2. Porsche publicises unladed DIN weight whereas BMW publicises EU1 weights (including driver, luggage and 90% tank of petrol). When you look at the unladed dry weight (i.e. no fuel, driver or luggage) you find that the GT-3 (series2) weighs 1380kg whereas the M3 CSL weighs 1310kg. This means that the power/weight of both cars are 257.7bhp/ton (911 GT3) and 256.3bhp/ton (M3 CSL), so you can see why their lap times around a circuit might be similar. So the M3 CSL weighs just a little more than a Boxster, not a bad achievement.

On the topic of manual vs automatic gearboxes - the CSL has a sequential manual gearbox not an automatic. I have an automatic gearbox so I know the difference. Whilst there is an assisted function that you can select to change gears at a certain rev point, most people with SMG do not use this much apart from in city traffic. In the sequential mode (default) the driver is in complete control of when the gearbox selects a gear apart from two conditions; 1) it won't let you blow the engine up by overevving and 2) it won't let you drive in too high a gear at low revs to avoid labouring the engine. Both of these seem reasonable to me and do not intefere in any way with how you might drive in a manual gearbox car. So auto it is not. Also the SMG box in the M3 is twice as fast as that used in a Ferrari 360 and in turn half as fast as those used in a DTM Touring Car. So it's quick and you really wouldn't want for a quicker change.

Thirdly on the topic of tyres, the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup is far from being the best R-spec tyre on the market. In a test last week by EVO mag (to be published in December) they compared the Cup tyres against Continental ContiSport Tyres and found a difference of 2.2 seconds around a twisty 2 mile circuit, this is still 5 seconds faster than a regular M3 so the tyres are not the only factor in the improved performance. At the Nurburging where a fast lap is more about confidence than outright grip I would estimate the CSL on ContiSports would lap at around the 8 minute mark.

But that brings me to the next point the GT-3 doesn't run on ordinary road tyres either. Have you seen them? They're nothing like the same tyres as fitted to the Carrera 2/4 and look semi slick for the the outer third of the tread pattern. They're also softer than a regular Pilot Sport 2 tyre. The other factor to bear in mind when considering comparing like-for-like is how do you take account for Porsche's decision to increase the tyre width to 295 on the GT-3? So let's just see, Porsche increased the tyre width and fitted softer more performance oriented tyres on the GT-3. Is that fair? Does anyone care? The point is that you can't compare like for like. Each manufacturer designed their cars around a certain specification and made appropriate compromises. With the GT3 RS and Ferraris 360 Challenge Stradale both being delivered on P Zero Corsas nobody should really be in a position to throw mud around. None of these tyres are as good as Goodyear's GS-D3 tyre in the wet, but very few of us would be commuting in our trackday cars in day-to-day conditions anyway.


The Cup tyres on the CSL are actually fine on wet roads, the problem is the lack of tread depth which is 5mm compared to the usual 8mm and tapered to 2.5 mm at the edge. Ok in wet or damp conditions but not much fun in puddles. The CSL was tested on a damp track by Top Gear magazine in the UK and was only 0.8 seconds slower than a GT-3 tested on the same track in similar conditions, so the Cup tyres are not as compromised as you might have heard.

I'm currently looking for a GT3-RS after putting my name on the list but not making the allocation. This would be in 'addition' to my CSL as both cars are quite excellent and deserve to be on the wish list of any track enthusiast.

To be a Porsche enthusiast you don't need to dislike other brands, there are a lot of nice cars out there and if you're lucky enough it's a real privellege to own more than one.

AGSpeed

It's a manual gearbox, exactly the same as the non-SMG car. It has an input shaft and an output shaft. It has a H gate internal selector like a G50 onwards Porsche syncro box.

It has a regular manual clutch same as the non-SMG car. It does not have a torque convertor.

It is a manual gearbox.

It does not have a gear lever with lotsa of rod, links, joints, cables and other mechanical slop. It does not have a cable or hydraulic connection from the pedalbox to the back of the car.

But it changes faster than you can because it is better at moving those hands and feet all together at the same time. And 100% reliably. And perfect blip downshifts. And perfect change down over rev protection.

And it can even decide when to change for you [if you want].

Now where did we see a manual gearbox with all the advantages identified?

Oh yes... Formula 1.

Automatic Gearboxes are very different, try a tiptronic for example. Otherwise referred as a slushmatic.

AGSpeed

BTW OFF TOPIC since every one else is too.

Hi John D. back again.

Hi Adrian, its been about 4 years since we chatted on the Rennlist email lists (911, 944T, Racing etc).

Hi DaveGordon, its Andy G. See you on Wednesday in Zurich! Didn't know you lurked around here. Funny who you bump into.

Hi SteveD, its Memph!

And... CSL is a manual. I've just been at the Nurburgring whipping 964 RS on Michelin Sport Cup tyres, 993 GT2s etc in a CSL.

I got Siggi Brunn to drive it (you know Group C driver, Le Mans etc.) thought it was really very very good.

P.S. my long developing 993GT2 racer is going through its final evolution to 935 construction. Private message will secure photos of its return to bare metal and the removal of, well, most of the chassis really!