New M3 CSL V New GT3
08-24-2003, 06:36 AM
#31
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Dear Greg,
Just one question. Have you actually driven a M3 CSL? The BMW salesman set everything up for me because it was a test drive and this thing needs hours of instruction to learn all the available features and how and why to use them. I just called him and asked and he said the launch control was set up and he apologised for not telling me about it.
Dear unidentified person called pig4bill
Have you ever seen a real Ferrari Enzo. Personally I have not so I do not comment upon what I do not know.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
Just one question. Have you actually driven a M3 CSL? The BMW salesman set everything up for me because it was a test drive and this thing needs hours of instruction to learn all the available features and how and why to use them. I just called him and asked and he said the launch control was set up and he apologised for not telling me about it.
Dear unidentified person called pig4bill
Have you ever seen a real Ferrari Enzo. Personally I have not so I do not comment upon what I do not know.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
08-24-2003, 11:02 AM
#32
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Originally posted by Greg A
Lou, the thing is, I refer back to my original question, where in the "rules" does it say that BMW can't put those tires on their car? Sure, they pulled a fast one, but how can you call that cheating? Cheating against what? Are you also saying that over the years, Porsche has never done anything similar?
I don't really care if they used rocket fuel and nitrous oxide to acheive that lap time as long as that was the stock specification for the car. I would have more of a problem with the lap time if the particular car used had been a "ringer", but that doesn't seem to be the case. I just don't understand how fitting special tires is cheating. I know the GT3 is a better/faster car.
Greg A
Lou, the thing is, I refer back to my original question, where in the "rules" does it say that BMW can't put those tires on their car? Sure, they pulled a fast one, but how can you call that cheating? Cheating against what? Are you also saying that over the years, Porsche has never done anything similar?
I don't really care if they used rocket fuel and nitrous oxide to acheive that lap time as long as that was the stock specification for the car. I would have more of a problem with the lap time if the particular car used had been a "ringer", but that doesn't seem to be the case. I just don't understand how fitting special tires is cheating. I know the GT3 is a better/faster car.
Greg A
Greg,
I guess you are right, I see what you mean. It just seemed underhanded to me for BMW to pull the wool over our head. They tried to do the coarse in under 8 minutes on similar tires the GT3 runs and could not so they used "track" tires. That to me is ****ty, not to say as you mentioned, Porsche hasn't dobe things like that in the past. Take care buddy
-Lou
08-24-2003, 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by Greg A
The sport mode is a separate function from M track mode. Sport mode adjusts the throttle response.
I believe the M track mode is only accessible after DSC has been disengaged and the S6 program is selected in drivelogic.
Launch control is only activated through a sequence of steps, which you probably would not have done since you didn't know it existed.
Greg A
The sport mode is a separate function from M track mode. Sport mode adjusts the throttle response.
I believe the M track mode is only accessible after DSC has been disengaged and the S6 program is selected in drivelogic.
Launch control is only activated through a sequence of steps, which you probably would not have done since you didn't know it existed.
Greg A
-Lou
08-24-2003, 02:59 PM
#34
Originally posted by Adrian
Dear Greg,
Just one question. Have you actually driven a M3 CSL? The BMW salesman set everything up for me because it was a test drive and this thing needs hours of instruction to learn all the available features and how and why to use them. I just called him and asked and he said the launch control was set up and he apologised for not telling me about it.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
Dear Greg,
Just one question. Have you actually driven a M3 CSL? The BMW salesman set everything up for me because it was a test drive and this thing needs hours of instruction to learn all the available features and how and why to use them. I just called him and asked and he said the launch control was set up and he apologised for not telling me about it.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
Driven a CSL? I haven't even seen one yet.
I was wrong about the launch control, and for that, I apologize. 90% of the salespeople I meet don't know anything about the car they are showing. Your experience should have been different because you would have had specially trained personnel involved at this event. I think it would have been more appropriate to have had a better understanding of the transmission before you had decided that it wasn't good enough because it was an auto.
The M3's gearbox is not quite as sophisticated as the CSL's, but it literally takes 5 minutes to learn the system as it is on the regular M3. I found that more than half of the modes on it were unnecessary.
Lou,
I assure you that launch control does fully exist on U.S. M3's, it just works a bit differently than the eurospec cars, but it is there.
Greg A
Last edited by Greg A; 08-24-2003 at 03:39 PM.
08-24-2003, 04:37 PM
#35
Burning Brakes
Originally posted by Adrian
Dear unidentified person called pig4bill
Have you ever seen a real Ferrari Enzo. Personally I have not so I do not comment upon what I do not know.
Dear unidentified person called pig4bill
Have you ever seen a real Ferrari Enzo. Personally I have not so I do not comment upon what I do not know.
08-25-2003, 11:06 AM
#36
Originally posted by pig4bill
Except on BMW transmissions.
Except on BMW transmissions.
I would like to know how you found the Enzo to drive. How was the gearbox?
08-25-2003, 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by Greg A
Lou,
I assure you that launch control does fully exist on U.S. M3's, it just works a bit differently than the eurospec cars, but it is there.
Greg A
Lou,
I assure you that launch control does fully exist on U.S. M3's, it just works a bit differently than the eurospec cars, but it is there.
Greg A
Thanks for info.
-Lou
08-25-2003, 03:19 PM
#38
Originally posted by LSM
Greg, All press releases say that the S6 program is not available. I have driven many many M3's with SMG and did not find a launch control program. To be sure, the europe equiped M3's have a s6 program that raises revs to 3500rpms and drops the clutch perfectly. As I said, I have never seen a US M3 with launch control. What gives? Do you need to put in a special aftermarket item to re-engage it or.....?
Thanks for info.
-Lou
Greg, All press releases say that the S6 program is not available. I have driven many many M3's with SMG and did not find a launch control program. To be sure, the europe equiped M3's have a s6 program that raises revs to 3500rpms and drops the clutch perfectly. As I said, I have never seen a US M3 with launch control. What gives? Do you need to put in a special aftermarket item to re-engage it or.....?
Thanks for info.
-Lou
I looked at BMW's website and saw that it says there are only 5 modes in Sequential. It also says that shifts can be as fast as 80ms. That shift speed was only available in S6. So, I called BMW NA to see what they had to say about it. As far as the rep that I spoke to knows, absolutely nothing has changed and the website is incorrect--evidently they were not aware of this error. S6 is still availalbe.
The 2002 car I drove had S6 and the car which R&T used to write an article about SMG II also had it.
S6 and launch control are two separate functions. S6 is the fastest shifting mode available and doesn't show up on the dash display as being selectable unless DSC is switched off. Launch control in the U.S. only uses 1800 rpm's instead of the 3500 in Europe and can only be used in S6 mode. It is on the car from the factory. But you can only use it about 30 times before the car needs to be serviced and it isn't of much use anyway.
Greg A
08-25-2003, 03:32 PM
#39
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Dear Lou,
I made no effort to study the mechanics of the M3 CSL. I am far too busy helping people fix their Porsches and do all the other dtuff I am involved in.
I did not get the tech specs until after I finished the test drive. This is Switzerland and things are done a little differently.
My comments on the transmission are made from driving the puppy. Nobody else has even got close to one of these things yet somehow are all experts on them. To me this will always be an automatic with semi-automatic functions and in my posts I have said there are far too many of them for a lightweight product.
I had a great laugh today because I read all these posts about "IT IS NOT AN AUTOMATIC" then I read that Bombardier are now marketing the Turboprop Dash 8 400 as having jet engines. This is based on the fact that they claim the core of the PW150A is the same as other P&W turbofan products. I then told my company that our Embraer Jets are really tilt rotors because the core of the engine came from the T406 used on Bell V22 Osprey.
The M3 CSL has no clutch pedal, it has a full automatic transmission function and to me it will always be an automatic. An electro-hydraulic clutch connected to what used to be a manual six-speed transmission makes for automatic mode where the driver makes no inputs at all or semi-automatic (being very generous) where the only driver input is the flick of a switch or the tap on a sequential gearstick. By the way the gearstick also acts as a mode selector. You also have to have your foot on the brake to get going in first.
Anyway for me further conversation is useless. I will wait until more people drive a real one and then we can chat.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
PS: Check out F1 from a few years ago with their automatic transmissions. I think you will find some transfer of technology here.
I made no effort to study the mechanics of the M3 CSL. I am far too busy helping people fix their Porsches and do all the other dtuff I am involved in.
I did not get the tech specs until after I finished the test drive. This is Switzerland and things are done a little differently.
My comments on the transmission are made from driving the puppy. Nobody else has even got close to one of these things yet somehow are all experts on them. To me this will always be an automatic with semi-automatic functions and in my posts I have said there are far too many of them for a lightweight product.
I had a great laugh today because I read all these posts about "IT IS NOT AN AUTOMATIC" then I read that Bombardier are now marketing the Turboprop Dash 8 400 as having jet engines. This is based on the fact that they claim the core of the PW150A is the same as other P&W turbofan products. I then told my company that our Embraer Jets are really tilt rotors because the core of the engine came from the T406 used on Bell V22 Osprey.
The M3 CSL has no clutch pedal, it has a full automatic transmission function and to me it will always be an automatic. An electro-hydraulic clutch connected to what used to be a manual six-speed transmission makes for automatic mode where the driver makes no inputs at all or semi-automatic (being very generous) where the only driver input is the flick of a switch or the tap on a sequential gearstick. By the way the gearstick also acts as a mode selector. You also have to have your foot on the brake to get going in first.
Anyway for me further conversation is useless. I will wait until more people drive a real one and then we can chat.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
PS: Check out F1 from a few years ago with their automatic transmissions. I think you will find some transfer of technology here.
08-25-2003, 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by Adrian
Dear Lou,
I made no effort to study the mechanics of the M3 CSL. I am far too busy helping people fix their Porsches and do all the other dtuff I am involved in.
I did not get the tech specs until after I finished the test drive. This is Switzerland and things are done a little differently.
My comments on the transmission are made from driving the puppy. Nobody else has even got close to one of these things yet somehow are all experts on them. To me this will always be an automatic with semi-automatic functions and in my posts I have said there are far too many of them for a lightweight product.
I had a great laugh today because I read all these posts about "IT IS NOT AN AUTOMATIC" then I read that Bombardier are now marketing the Turboprop Dash 8 400 as having jet engines. This is based on the fact that they claim the core of the PW150A is the same as other P&W turbofan products. I then told my company that our Embraer Jets are really tilt rotors because the core of the engine came from the T406 used on Bell V22 Osprey.
The M3 CSL has no clutch pedal, it has a full automatic transmission function and to me it will always be an automatic. An electro-hydraulic clutch connected to what used to be a manual six-speed transmission makes for automatic mode where the driver makes no inputs at all or semi-automatic (being very generous) where the only driver input is the flick of a switch or the tap on a sequential gearstick. By the way the gearstick also acts as a mode selector. You also have to have your foot on the brake to get going in first.
Anyway for me further conversation is useless. I will wait until more people drive a real one and then we can chat.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
PS: Check out F1 from a few years ago with their automatic transmissions. I think you will find some transfer of technology here.
Dear Lou,
I made no effort to study the mechanics of the M3 CSL. I am far too busy helping people fix their Porsches and do all the other dtuff I am involved in.
I did not get the tech specs until after I finished the test drive. This is Switzerland and things are done a little differently.
My comments on the transmission are made from driving the puppy. Nobody else has even got close to one of these things yet somehow are all experts on them. To me this will always be an automatic with semi-automatic functions and in my posts I have said there are far too many of them for a lightweight product.
I had a great laugh today because I read all these posts about "IT IS NOT AN AUTOMATIC" then I read that Bombardier are now marketing the Turboprop Dash 8 400 as having jet engines. This is based on the fact that they claim the core of the PW150A is the same as other P&W turbofan products. I then told my company that our Embraer Jets are really tilt rotors because the core of the engine came from the T406 used on Bell V22 Osprey.
The M3 CSL has no clutch pedal, it has a full automatic transmission function and to me it will always be an automatic. An electro-hydraulic clutch connected to what used to be a manual six-speed transmission makes for automatic mode where the driver makes no inputs at all or semi-automatic (being very generous) where the only driver input is the flick of a switch or the tap on a sequential gearstick. By the way the gearstick also acts as a mode selector. You also have to have your foot on the brake to get going in first.
Anyway for me further conversation is useless. I will wait until more people drive a real one and then we can chat.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
PS: Check out F1 from a few years ago with their automatic transmissions. I think you will find some transfer of technology here.
Adrian, No need to explain to me. I did not me to come off as a flame directed at you. I just found it odd, that's all, especially since the salesman, who for this car is supposed to be specifically trained on the particulars didn't know either. I wonder if you drove in S6 your thoughts would have been the same? When you drive in one of the automatic modes, it is supposed to be similar to driving a tame car. Just my thoughts, take care and didn't want to make light of what happened, God knows I sometimes do not know a cars particulars and for you to get attacked for it is a shame. Take care
-Lou
08-25-2003, 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by Greg A
Lou,
I looked at BMW's website and saw that it says there are only 5 modes in Sequential. It also says that shifts can be as fast as 80ms. That shift speed was only available in S6. So, I called BMW NA to see what they had to say about it. As far as the rep that I spoke to knows, absolutely nothing has changed and the website is incorrect--evidently they were not aware of this error. S6 is still availalbe.
The 2002 car I drove had S6 and the car which R&T used to write an article about SMG II also had it.
S6 and launch control are two separate functions. S6 is the fastest shifting mode available and doesn't show up on the dash display as being selectable unless DSC is switched off. Launch control in the U.S. only uses 1800 rpm's instead of the 3500 in Europe and can only be used in S6 mode. It is on the car from the factory. But you can only use it about 30 times before the car needs to be serviced and it isn't of much use anyway.
Greg A
Lou,
I looked at BMW's website and saw that it says there are only 5 modes in Sequential. It also says that shifts can be as fast as 80ms. That shift speed was only available in S6. So, I called BMW NA to see what they had to say about it. As far as the rep that I spoke to knows, absolutely nothing has changed and the website is incorrect--evidently they were not aware of this error. S6 is still availalbe.
The 2002 car I drove had S6 and the car which R&T used to write an article about SMG II also had it.
S6 and launch control are two separate functions. S6 is the fastest shifting mode available and doesn't show up on the dash display as being selectable unless DSC is switched off. Launch control in the U.S. only uses 1800 rpm's instead of the 3500 in Europe and can only be used in S6 mode. It is on the car from the factory. But you can only use it about 30 times before the car needs to be serviced and it isn't of much use anyway.
Greg A
-Lou
EDIT----Greg, I just realized, the SMG's I drove did have the S6 programming, they just did not have the launch control. Sorry for confusion, I was just recalling the programs and remembered.
-Lou
08-25-2003, 05:49 PM
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Greg, and everyone else, here is an excerpt from Car and Driver. Just an FYI....
In Europe an acceleration-assist feature is programmed in to automate a 4000-rpm clutch-drop, clutch-slip launch, but an internal counter permits only one such launch per hour, 30 for the life of the clutch. We won't get that, so for best results engage S6, floor the throttle to call for an aggressive clutch drop, then back off to 75 percent to allow the tires to hook up at about 3000 rpm. Then keep your foot down, upshifting at 8000 rpm This technique can't beat an expert's foot on a clutch, however. Our most recent three-pedal M3 outran the SMG by 0.3 second, with the entire advantage gained in first gear. The SMG hit 60 mph in 4.8 seconds and ran the quarter in 13.4, 0.3 second slower than our long-term M3 at both points, and each crossed the quarter-mile at 107 mph, suggesting they were equally powerful. Running in the A5 mode slowed the SMG by another 0.2 second.
BMW claims that performance, not convenience, is SMG's raison d'être. Our numbers don't prove that out, but we do think there's $2472 worth of convenience here.
-Lou
In Europe an acceleration-assist feature is programmed in to automate a 4000-rpm clutch-drop, clutch-slip launch, but an internal counter permits only one such launch per hour, 30 for the life of the clutch. We won't get that, so for best results engage S6, floor the throttle to call for an aggressive clutch drop, then back off to 75 percent to allow the tires to hook up at about 3000 rpm. Then keep your foot down, upshifting at 8000 rpm This technique can't beat an expert's foot on a clutch, however. Our most recent three-pedal M3 outran the SMG by 0.3 second, with the entire advantage gained in first gear. The SMG hit 60 mph in 4.8 seconds and ran the quarter in 13.4, 0.3 second slower than our long-term M3 at both points, and each crossed the quarter-mile at 107 mph, suggesting they were equally powerful. Running in the A5 mode slowed the SMG by another 0.2 second.
BMW claims that performance, not convenience, is SMG's raison d'être. Our numbers don't prove that out, but we do think there's $2472 worth of convenience here.
-Lou
08-25-2003, 10:14 PM
#43
Burning Brakes
Originally posted by Christer
Piggy, Adrian has commented on the BMW transmission as he has driven one. OK, he may not know all the autoslushmatic options available on this tippytaptronic but he has at least driven one.
Piggy, Adrian has commented on the BMW transmission as he has driven one. OK, he may not know all the autoslushmatic options available on this tippytaptronic but he has at least driven one.
I would like to know how you found the Enzo to drive. How was the gearbox?
08-25-2003, 11:25 PM
#44
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Originally posted by pig4bill
That's what I said. He commented on it but he didn't know what he was talking about. It doesn't matter if he drove it or not.
That's what I said. He commented on it but he didn't know what he was talking about. It doesn't matter if he drove it or not.
And yes it does matter that he drove it. And re: the Enzo, well it wouldn't be the first time that a fact had been misreported now would it?
08-26-2003, 07:49 AM
#45
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Dear Ruairidh,
Thanks for chiming in but you are wasting your time when dealing with such opinions expressed by pig4bill.
My logic and that of the authorities here in Switzerland who do not allow you to take your driving test in such autos (I just called and asked and the M3s are classified as automatics for driving test purposes) you must take your test in a manual with 3 pedals.
If gear changing always requires a driver input via paddles or sequential shifter the vehicle is classified as semi-automatic. If there is a full automatic mode where the driver has to make no inputs except to operate the gas pedal and brake pedal and on board systems react automatically to change gears based only on these two driver inputs then it is an automatic transmission. The M3 has a combination of these modes. Automatic and semi-automatic.
I bet if you ran a survey and just got people to look at the M3 pedal arrangement nobody would say, ah yes that is a 2 pedal manual transmission. I have not actually seen any words from BMW yet actually claiming the transmission is a manual. I agree the gearbox is certainly based on the six speed manual but what operates the clutch assembly cannot be classed as pedal operated. Mind you this conversation will just keep going around and around so this is my last post on this subject. Pig4bill is entitled to his opinion even though he has never seen a M3 CSL and I am entitled to mine seeing as I have driven one.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
Thanks for chiming in but you are wasting your time when dealing with such opinions expressed by pig4bill.
My logic and that of the authorities here in Switzerland who do not allow you to take your driving test in such autos (I just called and asked and the M3s are classified as automatics for driving test purposes) you must take your test in a manual with 3 pedals.
If gear changing always requires a driver input via paddles or sequential shifter the vehicle is classified as semi-automatic. If there is a full automatic mode where the driver has to make no inputs except to operate the gas pedal and brake pedal and on board systems react automatically to change gears based only on these two driver inputs then it is an automatic transmission. The M3 has a combination of these modes. Automatic and semi-automatic.
I bet if you ran a survey and just got people to look at the M3 pedal arrangement nobody would say, ah yes that is a 2 pedal manual transmission. I have not actually seen any words from BMW yet actually claiming the transmission is a manual. I agree the gearbox is certainly based on the six speed manual but what operates the clutch assembly cannot be classed as pedal operated. Mind you this conversation will just keep going around and around so this is my last post on this subject. Pig4bill is entitled to his opinion even though he has never seen a M3 CSL and I am entitled to mine seeing as I have driven one.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
Last edited by Adrian; 08-26-2003 at 08:12 AM.