Roygarth

Greg

Did you see the article in Autocar? The photo of his helmet? We got our logo on!!

'Richbrook - proud sponsors of the record breaking........................'

Thrilled to bits!

Brgds
Piers

Greg A

I have no doubt that the tires are good for a few seconds, I never questioned that. I don't see how fitting special standard tires is irrelevant, though. What in the world is a true like-for-like comparsion with vehicles from different manufacturers which weren't designed to run on the same tires?

The Enzo and CGT both carry specially designed tires unique to those cars. Are you saying that in order to conduct a fair comparison with the Enzo and CGT you would need to put the same tires on both cars?

Greg A

Surj-993C2S

The CSL is NOT an automatic!

It has a newer version of BMW SMGII gearbox and is very very VERY good.
That said, I totally agree about the tyres. here in the UK, you have to sign a disclaimer if you take the car with the unique BBS wheels and the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tyres to say that you understand that they dont last long and that they (effectively) have no grip in the wet.

Which is why 3 of the 7 press cars in Germany have been totalled by 'over zealous' reporters.

At the end of the day, the price of a CSL £58K puts it firmly into very nice 993 TT or used 996 GT3 territory - I know which I'd rather have
(which is why I sold my CSL allocation without taking delivery!!)

Greg_L

Ha ! I certainly did. What a great bloke/car to sponsor, God bless Phil Bennet !

I was also bloody impressed to see your name on the ignition switch surround on my friends Noble M12GTO. Whats next ?!

I'm off to the ring myself in mid september, i need a Radical SR3 t-shirt to gloat with!

LSM

The thing is, BMW had no intention of using these tires initially. Once they realized that they could not back up their sub 8 claim, they had these pseudo "street" tires made for them. They couldn't accomplish their goal and to avoid embarrassment, they kinda cheated.

Cars obviously do not have to have the same tires for a comparison, but, the sole reason the M3 won can be attributed to tires. The M3 used track ready tires and the GT3 used street tires. To level the playing field, run the GT3 on track ready tires and see what happens. I am sure it won't be a surprise to many of us Porsche fans.

-Lou

Greg A

Lou,

Thank you. But, as they say, a win is a win.

The comparison really should've been between the CSL and GT3 RS (street version).

I am certain that the GT3 will improve on the CSL's lap time when fitted with track tires. Also, the M3's engine was of dubious reliability in the standard car, so I'm not so confident in the longevity/reliability of the CSL's modified engine.

The GT3 is an all around better car than the CSL. One lap time--even on the ring--doesn't mean everything.

Greg A

Greg_L

I think that a lot of people would agree that the ring laptime is fast becomming the benchmark of how quick a european sports car is .

LSM

Greg, Come one. A win is not a win when one of the participants cheated. I am the biggest BMW fan ever but, do searches and you will see the M3csl couldn't break 8 min with street tires so they switched them. You realize, the difference in time between using track tires and street tires is probably 10-20 seconds. The CSL is a great performer no doubt but, it can't hold a flame to the GT3. Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. I'll give you one advantage the CSL has, it can carry more groceries. Put the GT3rs tires on the standard GT3 and it won't be close. I think someone will do a test with like tires and you will soon see proper results.

-Lou

Adrian

Funny I drove one and it is a automatic to me. No clutch pedal. In German BMW describe the gearbox as Sequenzielles M Getriebe (SMG Drivelogic). When you stop it automatically changes down to 1st gear. You do not have to put foot on pedal, disengage clutch and select a gear. The centre gear stick works exactly the same as any other automatic. Move it and it changes gear. Automatic. Flick a paddle towards you, right side (with big plus on it) for up and left (big minus on it) for down and it automatically changes gear. Automatic. Calling it anything else is just playing with words.
A Porsche Tiptronic works in a similar way. Automatic transmission.
The empty weight of the M3 CSL is 1460 kgs. This is 100 kgs heavier than my C4. I have to admit it felt quite heavy but as I said there is far too much junk in it. I still do not believe these figures. It would have to have been a specially configured M3 CSL and a knobbled GT-3.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

Greg A

Lou, the thing is, I refer back to my original question, where in the "rules" does it say that BMW can't put those tires on their car? Sure, they pulled a fast one, but how can you call that cheating? Cheating against what? Are you also saying that over the years, Porsche has never done anything similar?

I don't really care if they used rocket fuel and nitrous oxide to acheive that lap time as long as that was the stock specification for the car. I would have more of a problem with the lap time if the particular car used had been a "ringer", but that doesn't seem to be the case. I just don't understand how fitting special tires is cheating. I know the GT3 is a better/faster car.

Adrian,

The Porsche tiptronic trans has a torque converter. The SMG II trans, w/the exception of the electro-hydraulically controlled clutch is IDENTICAL to the standard getrag 6-spd manual. It is a manual gearbox that has some automatic functions, but it is not an auto. They are not playing with words.

Greg A

rickc

Everyone is having a problem with the implication that the M3 is somehow faster than the GT3 (all things being equal). It just appears that BMW stacked the deck to get the best possible time out of the car. Porsche should have done the same. No one is really fooled.
Rick
'78 930

graham_mitchell

I agree. The best way to resolve this is to put a GT3 round the ring on equivalent tires

Adrian

Something I forgot to mention about the tyres on the M3 CSL I drove. The total km on the car was 876 and the tyres were shot from a road legal sense. They were well below the 1.5 mm minimum tread depth allowed for summer tyres here in Switzerland.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

PS: I checked the tech specs book I have been given as well. The transmission has a number of modes including Full Automatic mode and what they call the M track mode. Rpm between gear changes can also be adjusted. There was a button which was pressed all the time when I was driving called sport mode. I cannot work out if this is the same as M track mode or not. Oh yes this thing has launch control as well. No wonder I had trouble spinning the rear wheels.

Greg A

The sport mode is a separate function from M track mode. Sport mode adjusts the throttle response.

I believe the M track mode is only accessible after DSC has been disengaged and the S6 program is selected in drivelogic.

Launch control is only activated through a sequence of steps, which you probably would not have done since you didn't know it existed.

Greg A

pig4bill

The rule that says "You thought of it before I did, so that's cheating.". Porsche likes to drag that rule out when they can.

According to Adrian the Ferrari Enzo probably has an automatic too.