CPT Porsche

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by graham_mitchell:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Weissach = Wise - ACK

therefore

Piech = Pee-Eck</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Weissach is NOT pronounced Wise-ack. The letter 'w' is pronounced like the english 'v'. The double 's' is hard, not soft as in the word 'wise'.
The 'ch' letter combination is a softer sound than the english 'ck' but there is no english equivalent sound that I can think of to help with that one. If you know the correct pronunciation of the German word 'ich', then you know what I'm talking about.

(Assuming it is a German name) 'Piech' would be pronounced as one syllable, not two, like the english word 'peach' except that there is the same soft 'ch' sound at the end.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">But he did get the "ei" part right, in this combo of e and i which ever is last is the sound that is made. You all gotta read Mark Twains book on German and living in Heidelberg, this book is also the reason Heidelberg was not bombed and Eisenhower picked it to the HQ for U.S. Army Europe.

Rich Sandor

okay, question for the german spearkers here:

Volkswagen is pronounced "FolksVagen" right?

what is the rule for using V instead of F?

ettsn

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Rich Sandor:
<strong>okay, question for the german spearkers here:

Volkswagen is pronounced "FolksVagen" right?

what is the rule for using V instead of F?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">More like Foolks-vagen.

All "V"s are pronounced as an English "F" and "W"s are pronounced like the English "V".

-Paul

RJT

I say Tom-A-toe, you say Tom-AH-toe!! This could go on and on with the different dialects and accents in German just like it is in English. I was very fortunate to speak with Klaus Bischof, the Head Curator of the Porsche Museum. He is a very friendly and extremely knowledgable person that can tell you pretty much anything about Porsche. We spoke extensively about the Gmund 356 coupe that came to the U.S. for Porsche's 50th anniversary in 1998. Every time he said Gmund, he pronounced it "Gah Mooned". When we were getting ready to leave, he asked if we were going to "Vy Sock" not Vy sack.
I think I will pronounce it the same way as Klaus!
I remember a lengthy discussion quite a few years ago about whether Porsche was a one or two syllable name. Both Peter and Wolfgang introduced themselves at a Parade as Por-sha. Not 'Porsh'. But still to this day people who know better will say 'Porsh'!!!

Rich Sandor

Next time I go to my local dealer <a href="http://www.weissach.com" target="_blank">www.weissach.com</a> , I'll tell them all that the head curator of the Porsche museum pronouces it "Vie sock".

John Anderson

What a bunch of funny people! The blind leading the blind. German has sounds that we don't. How do you tell an English speaker to make a voiced velar fricative?!(You know, the hairball sound) Don't look for the sound in your english phonetic inventory. Add to that the variable of different dialects and you have different, but still correct answers to the same question! Hoch, Platt, Bayerische. Each dialect will have a different pronunciation. But, Graham Mitchell gets the award for trying the hardest to help out. Good on you.
Let's use Hoch Deutsch.(High German)German has no silent letters and sounds at the end of words tend to be unvoiced.
1. Fuchs rhymes with books. not fyoooks.
2. Gmund. Not pronounced Gah-mund. There's no vowel in there. Say the g sound immediately followed by the m sound. Change the d to a t sound.
3. Weissach. Vy-sock is the closest you will get with an English typewriter!
4. Zuffenhausen. tsuff-(rhymes with buff)en-housen.
5. Piech. Honestly, I'm not positive about this one. Not even sure if it's German. I've heard Germans pronounce it with 2 syllables. Pee-aysh. Second syllable vowel sounds like a in ate. It looks like you should say it Peeesh.
So, I (stepping off soapbox)hope that helps you guys out. Oh, yeah...........Porsche is definately a 2 syllable word. Cheers!
(Tim, B.A. in Linguistics, on John's computer)

slinky

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by John Anderson:
<strong>buff)5. Piech. Honestly, I'm not positive about this one. Not even sure if it's German. I've heard Germans pronounce it with 2 syllables. Pee-aysh. Second syllable vowel sounds like a in ate. It looks like you should say it Peeesh.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I don't believe it's German either. It can't be, if indeed it is spelled with a mark over the "e". In German, the umlaut only ever appears over an "a", an "o" or a "u".

If Piech is spelled without a mark over the "e",
then it would be pronounced Peech, like peach, but with the ch producing a more soft, gutural sound. In German, the rule goes "when two vowels go walking, the second one does the talking."

Ken D

Technically, not only is Piech not German, neither is Porsche.
Piech is of Austrian ancestry, he is the son of Louise Piech (Ferdinand's daughter).

Ferdinand Porsche was born in what is now the modern-day Czech Republic (Bohemian), but was at that time part of the Austro-Hungarian empire. And yes Gmund is in Austria.

Great post by Tim @ AMW! Maybe he could discuss how language developed (specifically the German language) in the A-H empire.

pikey7

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by TIM:
<strong>Let's use Hoch Deutsch.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Since when have Baden-Wüttenburgers (or Austrians, or Czechs for that matter) spoken hoch-Deutsch???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by TIM:
<strong>Change the d to a t sound.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Let's not confuse, it's not a t sound as the English language knows it, but more like a sort of half 'd', half 't'.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by TIM:
<strong>3. Weissach. Vy-sock is the closest you will get with an English typewriter!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">To substitute the o for an a is definately a Schwabish thing, and not hoch-Deutsch!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Ken D:
<strong>And yes Gmund is in Austria.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I think you'll find Gmund is in Bayern, whereas Gmünd is in Austria.

Oh, and I found out mr Peach's name is spelt Piëch

Sorry, couldn't help it.... just in a real nit-picky mood! <img border="0" alt="[blabla]" title="" src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

RJT

This is one of the more interesting threads of recent days or weeks. As I posted yesterday this could go on and on with all the different dialects and accents.....and opinions. Tim's B.A. in Linguistics definately lends qualified information. But Tim, per your instructions I've been trying to pronounce Gmund with no vowel sound between the G and the M. How do you say the letter G without a vowel sound, either hard, Gee, or soft, Geh or Gah or Guh? I'm stumped!
I don't speak fluent German, and like you said there are German words that have no direct way of saying them in an English way. Being a Porsche fanatic for the past 36 years I have only copied the way I have heard certain "Porsche" related German words, spoken by both Germans and Americans. Gmund has always had a two syllable sound. Fuchs has always had more of a double uu sound, or even a triple ooo sound than a double oo sound. This could be nit-picking to some but I find it interesting.

I've always been curious about the English dialects and accents right here in the U.S. And after moving to Arkansas 2 years ago, I'm even more curious!
Or, why when you get to Boston/East coast does the letter R seem do disapear from all words that have an R in them??? "Park the car outside the bar" turns into "pawk da cah outside da bah"!
Maybe it's the same reason certain German words are pronounced differently depending on where you are and who's saying them!!!!
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Tim Comeau

Pikey, let's see how quick I can make this.
1. Southern germans don't use hoch deutsch (high german) but I had to pick one dialect to show pronunciations in. It's the standard dialect.
2. Phonotactics (sound relationship rules) of german ditate what we call "final obstruent devoicing." The only difference between our "t" sound and our "d" sound is when our voice turns on with respect to the airflow out of our mouths, called "voice onset timing." Our "t" sound is air only. Our "d" sound is just like the "t", but with voice added. Just for fun, look in the mirror and make only a t and d sound. NO VOWEL SOUND! Your tongue goes to the same spot behind your top teeth for both sounds.
I was correct in describing the final sound in the word Gmund, as a "t" sound because it is unvoiced. Another point- There are different forms of the same sound, called allophones. They register in our brain as the same sound, but they're different. These occur in different sound environments. Consider the words, paper cup. Each of the 3 p's in there get different amounts of air(aspiration)and so are different sounds. But all we hear is "p."
I'm sorry, but I don't know what you meant about the Vy-sock and swabiche thing. My point was, if you say Vy-sock, as I'm spelling it on my english keyboard(because I can't use the international phonetic alphabet)that's as close to the correct pronunciation as I can get.

RJT,
1. I promise you, Fuchs(it means fox, flip your wheels over and you'll see a little fox's face stamped in them along with the p/n, offset,etc.)is pronounced to rhyme with our word,"books."
2. Gmund- The "g" sound is naturally voiced. You can't make a "g" sound without using your voice so you can't help but make a tiny little vowel-like sound between it and the next sound, "m." But it is very minimal. Call me at the shop and I'll pronounce it for you over the phone.
3. The New England dialect is very conservative in terms of trueness to it's roots. Other dialects have migrated north, south, and westward with the peopling of this continent and have been influenced by many factors. The people who settled in New England tended to stay there and so that dialect is closer to the English spoken in England long ago. Listen to somebody from Maine,not Boston, and you'll hear the British accent in there! Yes, it sounds like they drop their r's. But the trippy thing to me, having grown up in Maine after learning to speak in California, is when they ADD r's to the end of some words! What the hell is that?!Ever heard someone from Maine say,"idear" for idea. They also do this with soda, the name, "Dana", and a few others I can't remember right now. It's called an intrusive R. I don't know why it happened in that dialect. I better mention the word Porsche in here somewhere. Cuz til now, this has been pretty much Linguistics.
Cheers!

hoffman912

Tim,

just wondering, how did you go from getting a degree in linguistics to working with cars?

pikey7

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Tim Comeau:
<strong>I'm sorry, but I don't know what you meant about the Vy-sock and swabiche thing. My point was, if you say Vy-sock, as I'm spelling it on my english keyboard(because I can't use the international phonetic alphabet)that's as close to the correct pronunciation as I can get.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Absolutely! Just jesting with most of the comments, but I was relatively serious about this one.

I was just mentioning the replacement of the a with an o sound. It seems in Germany to be general laziness to pronounce "ach" by just sort of opening your mouth and making that sort of hairball sound (almost sort of dropping the beginning off the a sound). I would have expected hoch-deutsch to have an a sounding like an a, but if you say so...... (You know better than I do!)

It was also just a little tease in case there were any Schwabs reading really. The Germans tend to have running accent jokes about the Bayrisch, Schwabisch acents, the same as most other countries have (Scottish & Irish beware )

I've spent a lot of time in Germany, and as such I have many good friends over there still. I still love taking the p!$$ out of them and their particular accents!!

I took your advice on the 'd' & 't' thing, and noticed that you are correct in the tongue position, but I also noticed that when making a 'd', it was the tip which moved to the roof of the mouth, whereas with a 't', the sort of top surface of the toungue moved to the roof. For me, a German 'd' was a sort of English 'd', but with a breath during to soften it to an *almost* 't' level. It's probably just my accent. There's no way anyone can dare to accuse me of speaking hoch-deutsch (I also never had lesson, just picked it up whilst I was there, so there's probably tons of local dialects in my German from Bayerisch, Schwabisch and Frankisch!)

RJT

Tim....Thanks for the clarification. I will politely correct all the guys that are selling Fuchs wheels of the proper way of saying Fuchs!
I've just heard it pronounced more like "Lukes" than "books". One guy at Pomona swapmeet did pronounce it with a K instead of an H!!!!
I guess my point in my previous post, whether I made a point or not, was that depending on where you are or who you are speaking to, in Germany or the U.S., the same word can and will be pronounced differently. Klaus Bischof at the Porsche Museum will pronounce it Gahmund if he wants to!
Listen to David Hobbs on Speed Channel. He always says 'Honder' for Honda. The Australian "version" of English is similar in that the letter R gets dropped from where it belongs and gets added to words that it doesn't!

BTW Tim, we know each other....RJT...Robert Trinkle.

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

hoffman912

Dont forget Porscher... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ahh those crazy brits...