Bill L Seifert

I just got through watching the 4th of a series on "Hitler's Managers", on the History Channel. The man covered in that episode is Dr.Ferdinand Porsche. Through articles in Panno and Excelence, I knew a little of Mr. Porsche's life story, but this one went into far greater detail.

Has anyone else seen this program? If you haven't, try to watch it. It is fairly new, and will probably be shown on the History Channel more times in the next month or so.

Lemmie know what you think.

Bill Seifert

1987 944S Race Car

CO951

I caught the end of it and it looked very interesting. It played again in the afternoon, and I recorded it. I'll let you know what I think after I watch the whole thing.

skl

Saw a part of what may have been that show and it said something like Porsche was one of the few people to tell Hitler was he really thought and not to sugar coat for him... interesting what the Piech side of the family had to do with him- anything?

TRWright

All I watch are the history and discovery channels, so I caught that a while back.

I tivo'd it!

Bill L Seifert

It did not say it on the Hist Chan program, but I think Anton Piech (His son-in-law, I think) was in prison with him in France. I believe someone from the Piech family was interviewed for the story, but I think it was spelled Pieche. I just assume that is the same family.

Wasn't Anton Piech, Louise's husband? That would have made Ferdinand Piech, (He ran the Porsche company in the 60's70's.) her son, and Dr. Porsche's grandson. Or have I got that all mixed up?

Anyway, it looks like Dr. Porsche was more involved with the ***** than I had been led to believe. I'm sure he just closed his eyes to the horrible thinkgs going around him, just as many of us do.

Bill

Bill

MoonBoy

I watched it last night too, it was pretty good. There were a few errors in the history of the Volkswagen but those errors really didn't have much to do with Porsche or his involvement. Ferdinand Piech is Dr. Porsche's grandnephew.

Feehliks

No , nephew (If "Dr. Porsche" is Ferry Porsche, the son of Ferdinand Porsche). Loiuse Piech is Ferdinand Porsche's daughter and Ferry Porsche's sister, what makes Ferdinand Piech Ferdinand Porsche's grand son.

Would be quite interesting to see that documentary. Is Guido Knopp the author/director?

I guess a similar debate as about Wernher von Braun, the rocket scientist.

Bst regards,

Felix

MoonBoy

Sorry, I was using the term Dr. Porsche in relation to Ferdinand Porsche the elder, I didn't want to cause confusion and I did anyway!

Feehliks

I think it is extremely hard not to mix up that family as there are at least four Ferdinands... They should have adapted a numbering system such as Ferdinand I., II.,...

Best regards,

Felix

richard glickel.

No Chris, you're quite correct. Most references to "Dr. Porsche" related to the eldest Ferdinand. His son Ferry, is usually referred to as "Ferry", though he too possessed degrees in engineering.

I'm sure that it's very difficult to identify German industrialists of that era who were not involved to some degree in the ****-Germany war effort. I would not make apologies for any who profited from that circumstance. During the war Volkswagen exploited slave labor - which I'd submit cannot be done "unknowingly".

Richard

Feehliks

No hairsplitting intended. I felt rather compelled to correct the term "grand nephew". The eldest one is pretty often referred to as "Prof. Porsche", too.

Well, Prof. Porsche was even designing tanks and other war material as von Braun did the V2. But I wouldn't call both industrialists, they didn't own any production company and it is hard to tell how much they knew about the crimes of the regime and could influence it. Nevertheless, both found in **** Germany fertile soil to realize their ambitions.

Best regards,

Felix

Bill L Seifert

Felix

I just went over the recording I did of it and did not see a Knopp in the credits, but I may have missed it.

Chris, who did that drawing you use on your threads? It's cool, I'd love to put that on my trailer.

Bill

Bill L Seifert

You know, I thought I posted this on the Racing site, but now it is on general. How the heck did that happen? I don't think I have ever been on the General before, I know a few minutes when I last posted it was on racing, but when I pushed" post quick reply", I was sent to general. That's really wierd

Bill

richard glickel.

Agreed. And the Volkswagenwerks was not the Volkswagen of the Piechs (and, I suppose, Porsches) of the post-war era. It was a state-owned facility that, according to **** propaganda, was to manufacture the "people's car" (Hitler's own brainstorm), but which never turned out a single car for the German people (many of whom had been swindled into paying for their V-dubs in advance), but which DID produce war machinery!

I have a hard time believing that Dr. (Prof.) Porsche was a ****. He strikes me as a man of real intellect, perpetually immersed in the science and art of engineering & design, who could care less about things political.

Now, I have heard that there were some prominent Porsche employees who had, in fact, been *****. I would imagine this could be said about many post-war German and Austrian businesses (not to mention the United Nations' own Kurt Waldheim ).

Ciao!

Richard

ked

I've thought about & studied the issue of "key people's responsibility" for participation in political / wartime / criminal actions by their governments. In college, I researched issues of space travel for commercial purposes, & living in a city where many German Rocket scientists were settled by the US Army, and having met a number of them, I was naturally curious. I read a transcript of von Braun's early interrogation by OSS / Army experts after he surrendered his team to US forces.

It is very difficult to put oneself into the position of Porsche & von Braun. One must attempt to analyze the facts & contexts objectively and hold off from quick or simplistic judgement. A professional historian is supposed to establish an acurate picture of things, distinct from their own subjective pov. Ultimately, one may take a position based upon their reading of the facts & their own moral compass.

In Porsche's case, he had been contributing to the design of military transport subsystems (usually self-propelled artillary & tank suspensions) since the outbreak of WWI. So, as an employee of larger companies or a self-employed designer, he was always in the "weapons system" business. The risk of NOT doing work on armaments is not to be overlooked (of course, he could have emigrated to the US, but he seems to have been more a totally consumed engineering visionary, than a Big Picture philosopher). It is also useful to examine such a person's life in terms of, "what did he love to do more than anything else?" In Porsche's case, it seems he loved racing & achieving efficiency through "elegant integration" of complex systems. He did not appear to want money (for its own sake) or power over others (he attracted a dedicated band of associates who worked w/ him as much as possible).

von Braun was identified by the German Army (while a teenager) as a brilliant engineer. the fact he was motivated by an unquenchable urge to put man in space was not of great matter to them. as the War unfolded, the ****'s required him to become a member of the Party. he had little choice but to comply. Himmler & Speer were contending over control of the armaments industry (Speer "owned" it & thereby gained the enmity of the ***** surrounding Hitler). Himmler's insistence that von Braun be a Party member meant (to him) he gained some control over the V2 program. In fact, von Braun was arrested by Himmler as a result of the Speer / **** infighting, leading to a serious confrontation between Hitler & Speer in March '44 (von Braun was released, but Speer having decided the war was lost, gave up his pre-eminent position w/ Hitler & the political battle w/ the **** inner circle).

It is interesting that the VW factory was converted to building the V1 "Buzz Bomb". Perhaps this (among other reasons) is why the Brits took control of the factory, & special interest in the VW auto. I have not learned why the French took special interest in Porsche, luring him into Fr on a "car design deal" & then arresting him. Was it just for money or ?

In the summer of '45, Speer, von Braun & Porsche were all placed together in a "technical assets internment camp". Now THOSE would be interesting tapes to review, wouldn't they?

{PS: when listening to experts interviewed on these matters, be aware that the US DOJ OSI (Office of Special Investigations) was responsible to track down war criminals in the US, & they have done a good job. however, they appeared to take a "guilty until proven innocent" attitude towards their targets}

{PPS: not to go too far off topic, we might contemplate how history may judge the US regarding our current government's "nuanced" policy towards the definition & use of torture as a matter of state policy in the War Against Violent Islamic Fundamentalism}