ProCoach

I’m sorry some folks can’t realize a benefit from sim training, but I realize it doesn’t work for everyone.

In the past twenty years, I’ve worked with hundreds of drivers in one on one remote training via private sessions, used my sim to duplicate real life cars with the exact same setup to generate data we could overlay on the real life car to find where time could be had on a given weekend and coached people in real time on the sim next to me with streaming telemetry where I could see where they’re looking, what they’re doing and exactly how they’re interacting with the car.

Also used sims to do sweeps, or going through the full range of adjustment for shocks, bars, springs, ride heights, aero and be able to evaluate the changes without expensive track time.

I started using sims to learn tracks that hadn’t opened yet (Barber, 2003) and won the race because I knew the track better than others.

Also, every manufacturer supported GT and Prototype team uses sims for a variety of pre-event testing and validation, most drivers are familiar and comfortable with using simulators as tools to help their own efforts.

When I first started using and selling triple screen sims in the late 2000’s as a beta tester for iRacing, about 35% of folks had inner ear trouble seeing movement they couldn’t feel, resulting in nausea and worse. The Navy and Air Force flight sims see a similar percentage.

With the advent of VR, that’s helped some and others, not so much.

if it works for you, it can be a very worthwhile tool. If not, you’re not alone.

Cloud9...68

That's a fair overall assessment, Peter. Again, my situation was unique in that the sim was my only opportunity to practice between races, allowing me to evaluate whether there was any correlation between progress I was making on the sim to my performance in the real car, with no outside factors like seat time in an equivalent real car between races. If I plotted my laps times in the real car (both qualifying and in the races), over the two seasons I competed in the series at Atlanta Motorsports Park, you would see a horizontal line with an average time of about 1:27, with a range of +/-2 seconds, while my sim times would show a steady decline over that same period from about 1:32 when I started (being totally new to sim driving) down to about 1:21, with a best of 1:20.7. So zero correlation between the two activities. I saw a similar level of improvement with my real track car when I was taking it to the local track on nearly a weekly basis: about an 8 second reduction in lap times when I moved to a new track over about a six month period. But sadly, my real car, a track-focused Porsche 968, was so dynamically different from the Radical SR1's I was racing, that the strong progress I made in my lap times in it on my local track also didn't translate at all to improvements in the Radicals. So, not to beat a dead horse, but my experience has shown me that the only way to become faster in either a real car, or on the sim, is to practice in the actual car, real or sim, that you are interested in mastering. There don't appear to be any shortcuts, or substitutes.

peterp

I think there is a huge differentiator in track benefit depending on whether sim, or track, is your first long-term experience.

For the kids who grew up and excel on sim, they are often pretty damn fast on track, with very little acclimation time, once they finally get the chance for a real-world drive.

I think that's because their "sim only" experience forces them to infer subtleties in sim feedback because they don't have any real-world feedback they'd get in a car. Of course, when they get in a car, they feel a lot more, which only helps them more.

For somebody who comes from extensive real-world track experience to sim, it's much more difficult to acclimate to sim and develop those same senses that the "sim only" kids were forced by circumstances to develop.

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ProCoach

I don't know about that. Plenty of real world drivers use the same visual cues as the simmers to figure how to dance near the limits, without going over.

I have observed that drivers with real world experience get on a sim and,

-without accumulating ANY self-awareness or technique to calculate or even guess their apparent speed, or

-looking further than immediately in front of the car or

-even bother to calibrate what pedal and/or steering input will result in what specific car response,

tend to just charge into the corner and "send it," secure in their expectation that their "mad skillz" will save them!

Hahahahaha! Doesn't usually work.

It's just like real world. For real world drivers learning the sim, start slow and add speed gently, because it's very hard to take it off.

peterp

Oh, I definitely agree that people who started with real-world racing can benefit very significantly from sim.

I just think the transition going from a real-world foundation to sim, to the degree that they can get the full benefit of sim, is harder. It's easier if you start out on sim, because that's all you have.

Max Verstappen is very open that he personally put 50 hours of sim and setup work into prepping for a single race (iRacing Nurburgring 24 Hours). It think he loves sim racing, but I'm sure he feels he still gets benefits from doing it. It seems to be working pretty well for him

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daaa nope

Yes I've seen this a lot, too.

The real-world drivers I've seen take immediately to it, are ones I've quite literally had to tell them ahead of time: You have to PRETEND this is real. You would never step into a REAL car, your first time driving that car, and that track, and on your OUT lap.... go FULL send with full throttle, dive to the 1 marker, NAIL the brakes, and flick the wheel. You'll take off slowly, work up to it, gradually increasing pace. You have to do the same here. You have to "learn the sim".... learn it's audio cues, etc.

ProCoach

Yep. And those who can’t, or don’t have the patience, don’t continue.

peterp

I think things like seat shakers, 5.1/7.1 surround sound, and pedal shakers are simple inexpensive add-ons that can add significantly to realism and make it easier to adapt (e.g. feel bumps, hear cars around you, feel ABS kicking in, etc). All can be done inexpensively -- Aura Pro shakers are much lower cost than Buttkickers and I prefer the Auras. Computer 5.1 sound systems. Pedal add-on shakers on Etsy.

Motion is almost impossible to do right, so haven't seen that be very helpful.

Cloud9...68

Yes, I was amazed how difficult driving the sim was. It took MANY laps before I could do more than a handful of sim laps without flying off the track somewhere. And you're right - you have to be patient, and take things step by step to get past the lack for tactile feedback on the sim, and rely on the visual cues. But over time, despite my utter lack of hand-eye coordination (you would never want to be my golf partner, lol), I eventually got to where I was halfway decent at it. I never got super consistent, but I did get to the point where I count on turning in a sizzling lap or two per session, with a minimal number of off-track excursions. This, as with everything else I experienced comparing the sim to the real car, was the exact opposite of my performance in the real Radical, where I was very consistent, but also depressingly slow. For me, at least, all those hours on the sim produced zero improvement whatsoever in my real lap times.

ProCoach

Agree most with this. My experience with everything up to a $660K Cruden Hexapod has shown me that latency remains a huge challenge for motion platforms (the time between what you see on the screen and what happens using motion).

I've only not been distracted by one system, the D-Box. But motion remains, at least for me, not enough of a benefit to spend the money for it.

daaa nope

Yup my findings have been the same. I have not gotten to try the Cruden (WOW!)... the most expensive rig I've been on is the Force Dynamics FD-401. And 100% aligned with your feedback: latency is the killer. As such I never recommend it. I have had some success with a single buttkicker. I can't say it adds much in the way of actual driver performance - but it's a neat effect and for 200 bucks plus some Home Depot parts to mount it to the seat - worth it.

I'll agree with some of the other sentiments (and disagree slightly with ProCoach)... in my experience, guys who start on the sim, and transition to driving real life - have a much better transition, than going the other way. And the longer they've been driving, and the faster they are IRL before jumping into the sim, the harder time they have acclimating to the sim. It definitely requires some patience to have to "learn" basics all over again.

ProCoach

Sounds like we do agree.

I have found that beginner/novice drivers and very quick drivers in real life tend to have the patience and the discipline to learn "how to drive the sim," whereas the vast middle of drivers in real life have trouble and not a few decide not to continue.

There are still many, MANY more simmers that may never make the transition to real life driving than there are vice versa. That's why E-Sports been so commercially successful. Not only for the hardware and coaching software sector, but for the tournaments. There are E-Sports drivers and teams that make as much or more than any top-level pro sports car driver. It's amazing!

Ziggmeister

Sigma Integrale publishes their latency data: https://www.sigmaintegrale.com/products/dk3-actuator

I don't know how that compares to other systems, but it's interesting that they're confident enough to publish these. I'll be adding a basic SFX-100 system to my rig hopefully in a few weeks, found someone who wasn't using theirs. Not sure I have any tools to measure latency other than just subjective feel. We'll see how it goes, my goal for now is just to be more entertained. I'll also have to figure out VR motion compensation.

ProCoach

I think that's comparable to most higher line, multi actuator systems, both 2 DOF and 6 DOF. That's not the issue. The issue is the mechanical mechanism acceleration and deceleration, slop in fasteners between actuators and the platform (especially multi-piece platforms). The force required to translate accelerative forces to a relatively high-mass platform (including the driver, seat, controls and frame) are substantial.

Most folks who choose these systems with electric and hydraulic rams compensate for that. Some people have a tough time allowing the latency (mechanical actuator>platform) not to distract them. If you tried it and you like it, power on!

peterp

Four Aura Pros (https://www.parts-express.com/Auraso...028?quantity=1) mounted in 4 corners of the frame helps quite a bit more than a single shaker. You can feel left and right rumble strips on the left and right sides of the car for example. Various effects can be dialed in with Simvibe software. This is a good 4-channel amp ( ) to drive the Auras. Requires separate sound card in PC for Simvibe software.