JP66

I see videos of GT4s that appear to be using an AIM Solo that show brake data. Does the GT4 have OBD2 with brake data or is this GPS created braking or something else?

ProCoach

Link to said videos, please.

Cant get brake info from OBDII on any GT4.

Can do a fake brake (long g) bar in the SmartyCam, though.

Can get brake info via usb in PPTA app.

JP66

Crazy world. I sold my Cayman GTB1 for personal medical reasons out of fear of pending financial doom, but lucky me my situation reversed financially once I was forced to fully retire (medically not so much but still better than originally feared) but in any case now I'm a proud owner of a 2020 GT4 6 MT. It's stored at SST and getting a roll bar and harness installed, but I'm going to add data now as well. Should I educate myself on a Catalyst?

Here's one video that seems to show brake data:

ProCoach

Yes, that 981 GT4 car has a direct connection to the orange/red-orange/brown twisted pair near the fuse box.

Your 718 GT4 will use a different pair, but you can get the same (and more) information from the later car. It MUST be connected to the car CAN, though. Nothing through OBDII.

AFA your choice between AiM and Catalyst, that's a tough one.

When we worked together many years ago at LRP, you were facing the same kind of challenges turning the squiggly lines from AiM into an action plan that most people I see doing HPDE and track days do.

If you want this kind of video, and an easy ability to have Jonathan or Simon compare a reference lap to yours, the AiM is a good choice.

If you want a device that will guide you using both audio feedback during the session and highlight the areas on track you need to work on and what to do to improve them using a simple, non computer based post session analysis, the Catalyst can't be beat.

I sold my national top-three AiM reseller business, along with my MoTeC and VBOX franchises among others, two and a half years ago to fully concentrate on my coaching business again, but there have been quite a few AiM users going to the Catalyst and few, if any, going the other way.

AiM is great if you want to geek out, as is MoTec/Cosworth and other more configurable systems, but if all you want to do is to do better, the Catalyst offers a much more streamlined and easy to use path to do that. VBOX is not far behind and both of the latter will show you your optimal lap in video, which is priceless.

The Optimal Lap in the Catalyst and the Ideal Lap in the VBOX will show you, out of everything you did or tried, plus highlight all of your isolated moments of "flowing brilliance" (thank you, Bruce MacInnes) that you did, so you can go out and do it again.

You can't make improvements unless you know where you are. Either way, you'll get what you need. Just depends on how much work and study on how to "translate" that data and video into an action plan that you want to do.

Matt Romanowski

IMHO, the Catalyst and AiM are different tools. The Catalyst is good if you want to put in no effort - it will tell you what to do based on the algorithms programmed into it. That can be good or bad based on your driving. It's classic GIGO. I've seen it mislead people as to the optimal line because it's based on your driving, not all the possibilities. The AiM is good if you want to put in some amount of effort. You get real data and video and can then go as in depth or not as you want.

My experience with the Catalyst is very different than Peter's, but maybe that is since he sold his business. I have a fair number of customers who have moved on from the Catalyst. It all depends what you want.

ProCoach

Interesting take, Matt. Yes, they are different tools, and my point of view is based primarily on ease-of-use.

My experience with system migration among users was true for the two years before I sold my business. Clearly there are people, especially folks that don't use the AiM every day like you or I do, that find not just the learning curve but the relearning between longer periods not using it, that are seeking alternatives.

There are plenty of good ones.

I know you like the word algorithm, and you keep citing the GIGO boilerplate for both of the machine learning devices (Apex Pro and Garmin Catalyst) out there as some sort of limiting factor, or slam. But it's the basis for all comparison, finding and focusing on what a driver can do better. At the highest levels. Period.

There is NO data logging device that can chart "all the possibilities." That's just a fantasy, and not what AiM, Garmin, MoTeC, VBOX, Apex Pro or any of the systems do. Phone apps get "real data and video," too.

I am sure you know this, but there is no driver who does everything the best over one lap in one session. I also know that 90% plus of the HPDE and track day drivers are capable of doing better, IF they can see what they did better on another lap in the same session or a different one that same day.

The AiM still does not produce a Theoretical, Ideal or Optimal lap in video or even charted in ONE speed/distance strip chart to compare with the best lap or any other lap. You have to pick your way through the Sector time report to try and figure it out, then go to individual laps to see the video. No quick solution.

Race Technology did this in data in 2001, Traqmate in 2004 (first with data and video), Trivinci (Race-Keeper) with data and video in 2008, VBOX in 2010 (with video), Apex Pro with data in 2018 and Garmin (with video) in 2021. MoTeC and Pi are still the same as AiM now, at least offering synced video for all.

At least the Garmin vets the segment joints, unlike AiM or any of the others, so that it discards gross errors like entering the next segment going too fast/out of position to be possible. That's pretty smart, if you ask me.

JP66

Can a Catalyst system tell me if I'm late or early to an Apex?

Matt Romanowski

Contrary to what you believe, I have suggested and sold people on Catalyst and Apex Pro. It is horses for courses. I want my customers to get data tools and support that they can use and help them.

All devices have to deal with GIGO. The difference is that with AiM, MoTeC, Cosworth, MM, etc, the users gets to see the garbage and can make judgements on it. With the Apex Pro or the Catalyst, the device decides for them. Now, the Apex Pro though it's app give you access to the data in a deeper way than the Catalyst so the users can then dig in as deep or little as they way. With a true data system, the user has to decide what is possible, not the machine.

If people want the easy button or the device to tell them what to do, the Catalyst is good for that. And it matches what many people want. If they want more data, deeper analysis, sensors, or anything else, then the Catalyst won't grow with them. It's not me saying that, it's how it works. I think Larry is a great example of this and has posted about it here.

So, for the OP, sorry to once again have a thread sidetracked. See what effort you like putting in, what Simon likes to use to do data, what other club members are using, and then make your choice.

ProCoach

Yes. Not only that but it will tell you that over audio in real time and tell you in the prioritized opportunities post session if you were faster or not with an earlier or later apex than you were taking.

Also, it grades you on how much of the width of the road you’re using, the efficiency of your track out and more.

Matt, like the Apex Pro, the Garmin offers a great app viewable on a tablet (I think AiM was supposed to be working on that, at least that’s what they said when RS3 came out) for iOS or Android.

Plus in the app, you can make direct overlayed comparisons between laps, between drivers on the same track. Really is the easy button.

JP66

Lucky me I have used an AIM system many times so perhaps it's time to try Catalyst. I'll be seeing Simon on Saturday so I definitely like the idea of getting his opinion as well.

Thanks to both of you for the thoughtful input. I always learn a ton from your discussions

Ultimately, I do think brake data is crucial and I'm assuming a Catalyst can't tie to a CAN bus or otherwise get brake data, true?

ProCoach

Not a sidetrack at all. Answered the OP’s question, gave supporting evidence and you chimed in.

As systems become more configurable, they become harder to use. Users need to know what “good data” looks like.

For many, the easy button is to hire a coach or use coaching resources you have to interpret the data. I continue to be successful supplying that information real-time and remotely to help drivers do just that.

The Garmin offers a very powerful software and hardware solution to help drivers forward, so much so that more and more Clubs are using them. No one size fits all, but some are more useful than others.

ProCoach

Correct, the Catalyst cannot at the present time get throttle or brake data, however in the app at high resolution, the accelerometers are good enough to tell speed and amplitude of the brake force (directly related to pedal pressure, if the brakes are working properly) and even “see” throttle lifts. More so, it can compare you to Simon’s sessions with a acceleration and braking forces overlaid.

I know there is a whole lot more to work on than zeroing in on braking, at this point.

ProCoach

@JP66 the one thing Simon, Jonathan and I would be able to better coach you on braking is the extent you extend your EoB into Big Bend on a SmartyCam video.

Even though there is a lag, a latency between the time you actuate or completely release the brakes for the time it takes for the camera to render the information onto the video in real time, it would still be useful.

Matt Romanowski

If the car is at SST, they can pretty easily put the brake pressure sensor in along with an ACC to get that data into your S2DL. That is a potent package and will record your actual brake inputs. Long G is a great approximation, but has a lot of variables in it. I am a proponent of measuring what you actually want to know when you can.

ProCoach

@JP66 ypu don’t need a brake pressure sensor at all. It all comes through on the 718 GT4 CAN, just like your original question.

Matt, keep selling, buddy.