Swirl marks removal
06-02-2004, 12:47 AM
#1
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Swirl marks removal
Apparently, at some point in time my car suffered from an owner who was fond of drive-through automatic car washes. There is a pattern of straight marks, and they really show on the rear edge of the hood and the front edge of the roof.
I've tried Meguiar's Swirl Remover 2.0 in conjunction with a Porter Cable 7424 random orbital polisher, to some success. Does anyone have any other suggestions, or just more elbow grease?
I am fortunate that the car was garaged or in a car port up to when I bought it. The Guards Red is in pretty fair shape, with the exception of the car wash marks.
TIA
I've tried Meguiar's Swirl Remover 2.0 in conjunction with a Porter Cable 7424 random orbital polisher, to some success. Does anyone have any other suggestions, or just more elbow grease?
I am fortunate that the car was garaged or in a car port up to when I bought it. The Guards Red is in pretty fair shape, with the exception of the car wash marks.
TIA
06-02-2004, 11:43 AM
#2
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06-23-2004, 01:35 AM
#3
www.autopia.com
I use 3m perfect it 2 smr with a yellow pad
blackfire polish with the white
p2s with grey
perfect every time-
I use 3m perfect it 2 smr with a yellow pad
blackfire polish with the white
p2s with grey
perfect every time-
11-09-2004, 10:38 PM
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Getting rid of swirls...here is what I did (longish)
I've been editing this as I'm doing more, so if interested, you can check it out again...
UPDATE: Finally added some pics...sorry for the long download.
FWIW, here is a recap of what I have been doing on my Midnight Blue Metallic (so blue it is sometimes black) 1995 Porsche 911 Cabriolet. Keep in mind it has 105,000 miles, so despite not being super old, it does get driven.
Note: This is not an endorsment of any particular technique...if you like your products, great. There are a thousand ways to do it, here is what worked for me because I couldn't find a post that detailed it all in one place like this.
I was pretty **** and it was pretty swirl free when I got it, so I just worked up to 19 coats of Zaino, but then the body shop tried to be nice (I thought I had them trained) and buffed it out for me. Off go the 19 coats, in go the swirls.
I figured A) I could go yell at the shop to take them out, but they aren't a detailing shop, B) I could make them pay for detailing, but that seemed like it would be a laborious process, C) I could pay for detailing, D) I could get a PC and try myself. I went with D. That was both good & bad.
Here's how I started:
I first tried 3M SMR with white pad...didn't seem to do too much.
Tried 3MSMR with Yellow pad...didn't seem to do much.
Tried Meg ScratchX with White pad...didn't seem to do much.
Tried Meg ScratchX with Yellow pad...ack...worse. Occurs to me to try the obvious and go with lighter instead of heavier...
Tried 3M SMR with black polishing pad...MUCH better...but still there. Really worked it in until powdering...still there...PC on about 4-5...went over it several times.
Also tried ScratchX with black...not too much difference.
So, I did some more research, found out SX was bad plan the way I used it, posted a couple of questions, talked to Brad B, and implemented the following:
Steps I followed:
Preparation
1) Strip down with a naptha sort of cleaner (I had 3MSMR & 2 coats of Z5 just to make it liveable until I could get to it right) to not worry about waiting for Z5 to rub off...just start fresh. [edit] It was just a generic sort of naptha from an auto paint supply store.
1a) Bought a 500W halogen lamp at Home Depot for $8.97. You aren't serious unless you have something like that. Otherwise you end up chasing sunlight to check your work.
1b) I had already clayed a couple of weeks ago, so I skipped this part.
2) 3M Perfect It III Machine Glaze (replacing II as water based product line) on Lake Country Yellow pad, PC on 4-5. I was VERY generous with the product, and wiped down with microfiber afterwards. NOTE: Contrary to some advice on the board, I DID NOT get it to powder...Brad mentioned that was going too far and could actually scratch. I bought the quart size from an auto paint supply store.
Note: Sometimes you REALLY have to go slow and really angle it in to get the pressure where you want it. I wish I had some 6" pads as the 7.5" flop a lot and don't allow you to get in there. Additional note: People have said push hard, but not hard enough the head stops moving. I always thought, yeah, like I'm going to stop a PC from moving. That is not what they meant. The PC has a sort of random vibration but then also the pad spins. While you can't push so hard as to stop the vibration, you CAN push so hard as to stop the rotation, and then you just have this vibrating thing that isn't doing it's job...watch it and you'll see what I mean.
3) 3MSMR with white pad, PC on 4-5. Between the 2 products thus far, I had a slight haze (slightly less after the SMR). I did skip the optional 3MSMR with yellow, as my hands were blistering and getting sore.
4) To remove haze and prep, used S100 (read was the same as P21S) shine enhancing paint cleanser to sort of buff & clean everything off, white pad, PC on 4-5.
5) Wiped down with the naptha cleaner again to start fresh and make sure no fillers were left behind.
Zaino
6) 1 coat of Zaino new Z5 with black pad, then wash with Z7 & spritz with Z6, PC on 4-5. [Edit] I always use ZFX so I can do up to 3 coats in 24 hrs, 6 in 72 hrs, and spritz Z6 on the pad for some lubrication.
7) 3 more coats of Z5, with spritz of Z6 in between each. Moved PC down to 3, and spritzed Z6 on the foam applicator...seemed to help more evenly and thinly lay down the product.
8) 2 coats of new Z2, with Z6 in between & on the black foam pad, PC on 3. Waited a few days...
9) 2 more coats of new Z2, with Z6 in between & on black foam pad, PC on 3.
Note: I used a foam applicator by hand hear the cab top, the rear spoiler, front airdam, mirrors, windshield fluid squirters, etc., and avoided the PC there.
Additional note on PC & Zaino: This is just my opinion. Some people are for PC & Z, some are not. In my opinion, if you are only going to do one coat of Z2 or Z5 (this is assuming using ZFX, though I don't know if it makes a difference), I don't think I would bother with the PC. The Lake Country pads are big enough that the first coat soaks in about as much product as if you were just doing by hand. HOWEVER...if you are going to do multiple coats (personally, I always do multiple coats and don't even start the Z process other than wash & spritz unless I have time for at least 2, but usually 3 coats), then the PC really helps spread it on thin, and saves lots of effort so that you are eliminating one hand applied step (PC on, microfiber off, Z6 & microfiber afterwards). After that first coat, the pad has what it will take and then you can really thin out the coats. I used about the same amount for the first coat as if I do by hand, but I got 2 more coats out of the same amount (6 cc's), so I got a total of 3 coats out of 12 cc's instead of 2 by using the PC. Some of that is just because you can put less Z on as you have more Z on the car, and I'm up to 11 coats now, but I think the PC is helping as well.
That is it thus far. My plans are about 17 more coats of Z2 with a layer of Z5 about every 5th coat.
[Edit] I'm up to about 21 coats of Z now, and learned a few more tricks:
A) About every 3-5th coat, I go back to Z5. This seems to help a bit in keeping swirls under control.
B) When I use the z5, I make sure to use by hand, not using the PC. I'm going to try without the PC with the Z2 for a few coats a well, and compare with what I'm doing with the PC...I'll get back to you with results.
What I learned about the PC:
1) Don't believe the hype: It does not make the swirls jump off the car and onto your pad.
2) Believe the hype: This thing really does stuff that most people could never do by hand, and you really can't mess up your paint without trying really hard.
3) The PC can work miracles: It can get scratches out that you never thought would work.
4) The PC can't work miracles: It takes lots of work to get those out, and some won't work w/o touch up techniques.
5) The PC makes things go faster: You can do a whole section in less time than you could ever do by hand.
6) The PC makes things go slower: Because it can do more, you see more. I could have been rid of the swirls in about a third of the total time it took me (likely 15 hrs total), but I kept seeing little things that A) I didn't notice before but now I see because of better lighting and a more critical eye and because the rest of the panel is looking so good. I could easily spend an extra 10-15 minutes on each scratch.
7) Use LOTS of product...keep it on there...don't let it powder...keep going back over and working it in.
8) Go SLOW...really work it in, but like Brad said, he could do an entire application on just one scratch. I had some stuff I probably spent 20-30 min on just one scratch...but it came out.
9) Switch your pad about 1/2 way through...mine got pretty soaked with product and just wasn't as effective anymore...drying out faster, not getting the umph in, etc. Switching made it easier again.
10) If it didn't work by hand before, you might try again now. I had one scratch that was surface for the most part but looked like it it would take some paint to fix, but in such a way that I'd never be able to touch up well. I had tried by hand before with SMR, Meg ScratchX, etc. Nothing worked. 15 min with IIIMG and yellow pad, then Meg SX by hand, then another 15 min with IIIMG has it almost unnoticeable.
11) There is no way to win with the PC: You will likely get your swirls out. You will likely get some scratches out. But because of lighting, improved eye, and more strict standards, you will now see stuff that you never did before that either A) it can't get out or B) you will have to spend another 15 hours to get all out.
12) When you ask for help on the board, read it all, but then read again after you did the first few steps...often ALL my questions were answered the first time, but I didn't know enough when I first read it to know.
13) Step back every once in awhile. I spent lots of time 6-10" away from the surface, with a 500W light at the right angle, moving my head around to find that damned scratch. Step back and see if you can REALLY see it, and apply some judgement. After all...
14) At some point you have to leave the garage for food and sex, not necessarily in that order.
Full thread: http://www.autopia.org/forums/showth...8&pagenumber=1
I've been editing this as I'm doing more, so if interested, you can check it out again...
UPDATE: Finally added some pics...sorry for the long download.
FWIW, here is a recap of what I have been doing on my Midnight Blue Metallic (so blue it is sometimes black) 1995 Porsche 911 Cabriolet. Keep in mind it has 105,000 miles, so despite not being super old, it does get driven.
Note: This is not an endorsment of any particular technique...if you like your products, great. There are a thousand ways to do it, here is what worked for me because I couldn't find a post that detailed it all in one place like this.
I was pretty **** and it was pretty swirl free when I got it, so I just worked up to 19 coats of Zaino, but then the body shop tried to be nice (I thought I had them trained) and buffed it out for me. Off go the 19 coats, in go the swirls.
I figured A) I could go yell at the shop to take them out, but they aren't a detailing shop, B) I could make them pay for detailing, but that seemed like it would be a laborious process, C) I could pay for detailing, D) I could get a PC and try myself. I went with D. That was both good & bad.
Here's how I started:
I first tried 3M SMR with white pad...didn't seem to do too much.
Tried 3MSMR with Yellow pad...didn't seem to do much.
Tried Meg ScratchX with White pad...didn't seem to do much.
Tried Meg ScratchX with Yellow pad...ack...worse. Occurs to me to try the obvious and go with lighter instead of heavier...
Tried 3M SMR with black polishing pad...MUCH better...but still there. Really worked it in until powdering...still there...PC on about 4-5...went over it several times.
Also tried ScratchX with black...not too much difference.
So, I did some more research, found out SX was bad plan the way I used it, posted a couple of questions, talked to Brad B, and implemented the following:
Steps I followed:
Preparation
1) Strip down with a naptha sort of cleaner (I had 3MSMR & 2 coats of Z5 just to make it liveable until I could get to it right) to not worry about waiting for Z5 to rub off...just start fresh. [edit] It was just a generic sort of naptha from an auto paint supply store.
1a) Bought a 500W halogen lamp at Home Depot for $8.97. You aren't serious unless you have something like that. Otherwise you end up chasing sunlight to check your work.
1b) I had already clayed a couple of weeks ago, so I skipped this part.
2) 3M Perfect It III Machine Glaze (replacing II as water based product line) on Lake Country Yellow pad, PC on 4-5. I was VERY generous with the product, and wiped down with microfiber afterwards. NOTE: Contrary to some advice on the board, I DID NOT get it to powder...Brad mentioned that was going too far and could actually scratch. I bought the quart size from an auto paint supply store.
Note: Sometimes you REALLY have to go slow and really angle it in to get the pressure where you want it. I wish I had some 6" pads as the 7.5" flop a lot and don't allow you to get in there. Additional note: People have said push hard, but not hard enough the head stops moving. I always thought, yeah, like I'm going to stop a PC from moving. That is not what they meant. The PC has a sort of random vibration but then also the pad spins. While you can't push so hard as to stop the vibration, you CAN push so hard as to stop the rotation, and then you just have this vibrating thing that isn't doing it's job...watch it and you'll see what I mean.
3) 3MSMR with white pad, PC on 4-5. Between the 2 products thus far, I had a slight haze (slightly less after the SMR). I did skip the optional 3MSMR with yellow, as my hands were blistering and getting sore.
4) To remove haze and prep, used S100 (read was the same as P21S) shine enhancing paint cleanser to sort of buff & clean everything off, white pad, PC on 4-5.
5) Wiped down with the naptha cleaner again to start fresh and make sure no fillers were left behind.
Zaino
6) 1 coat of Zaino new Z5 with black pad, then wash with Z7 & spritz with Z6, PC on 4-5. [Edit] I always use ZFX so I can do up to 3 coats in 24 hrs, 6 in 72 hrs, and spritz Z6 on the pad for some lubrication.
7) 3 more coats of Z5, with spritz of Z6 in between each. Moved PC down to 3, and spritzed Z6 on the foam applicator...seemed to help more evenly and thinly lay down the product.
8) 2 coats of new Z2, with Z6 in between & on the black foam pad, PC on 3. Waited a few days...
9) 2 more coats of new Z2, with Z6 in between & on black foam pad, PC on 3.
Note: I used a foam applicator by hand hear the cab top, the rear spoiler, front airdam, mirrors, windshield fluid squirters, etc., and avoided the PC there.
Additional note on PC & Zaino: This is just my opinion. Some people are for PC & Z, some are not. In my opinion, if you are only going to do one coat of Z2 or Z5 (this is assuming using ZFX, though I don't know if it makes a difference), I don't think I would bother with the PC. The Lake Country pads are big enough that the first coat soaks in about as much product as if you were just doing by hand. HOWEVER...if you are going to do multiple coats (personally, I always do multiple coats and don't even start the Z process other than wash & spritz unless I have time for at least 2, but usually 3 coats), then the PC really helps spread it on thin, and saves lots of effort so that you are eliminating one hand applied step (PC on, microfiber off, Z6 & microfiber afterwards). After that first coat, the pad has what it will take and then you can really thin out the coats. I used about the same amount for the first coat as if I do by hand, but I got 2 more coats out of the same amount (6 cc's), so I got a total of 3 coats out of 12 cc's instead of 2 by using the PC. Some of that is just because you can put less Z on as you have more Z on the car, and I'm up to 11 coats now, but I think the PC is helping as well.
That is it thus far. My plans are about 17 more coats of Z2 with a layer of Z5 about every 5th coat.
[Edit] I'm up to about 21 coats of Z now, and learned a few more tricks:
A) About every 3-5th coat, I go back to Z5. This seems to help a bit in keeping swirls under control.
B) When I use the z5, I make sure to use by hand, not using the PC. I'm going to try without the PC with the Z2 for a few coats a well, and compare with what I'm doing with the PC...I'll get back to you with results.
What I learned about the PC:
1) Don't believe the hype: It does not make the swirls jump off the car and onto your pad.
2) Believe the hype: This thing really does stuff that most people could never do by hand, and you really can't mess up your paint without trying really hard.
3) The PC can work miracles: It can get scratches out that you never thought would work.
4) The PC can't work miracles: It takes lots of work to get those out, and some won't work w/o touch up techniques.
5) The PC makes things go faster: You can do a whole section in less time than you could ever do by hand.
6) The PC makes things go slower: Because it can do more, you see more. I could have been rid of the swirls in about a third of the total time it took me (likely 15 hrs total), but I kept seeing little things that A) I didn't notice before but now I see because of better lighting and a more critical eye and because the rest of the panel is looking so good. I could easily spend an extra 10-15 minutes on each scratch.
7) Use LOTS of product...keep it on there...don't let it powder...keep going back over and working it in.
8) Go SLOW...really work it in, but like Brad said, he could do an entire application on just one scratch. I had some stuff I probably spent 20-30 min on just one scratch...but it came out.
9) Switch your pad about 1/2 way through...mine got pretty soaked with product and just wasn't as effective anymore...drying out faster, not getting the umph in, etc. Switching made it easier again.
10) If it didn't work by hand before, you might try again now. I had one scratch that was surface for the most part but looked like it it would take some paint to fix, but in such a way that I'd never be able to touch up well. I had tried by hand before with SMR, Meg ScratchX, etc. Nothing worked. 15 min with IIIMG and yellow pad, then Meg SX by hand, then another 15 min with IIIMG has it almost unnoticeable.
11) There is no way to win with the PC: You will likely get your swirls out. You will likely get some scratches out. But because of lighting, improved eye, and more strict standards, you will now see stuff that you never did before that either A) it can't get out or B) you will have to spend another 15 hours to get all out.
12) When you ask for help on the board, read it all, but then read again after you did the first few steps...often ALL my questions were answered the first time, but I didn't know enough when I first read it to know.
13) Step back every once in awhile. I spent lots of time 6-10" away from the surface, with a 500W light at the right angle, moving my head around to find that damned scratch. Step back and see if you can REALLY see it, and apply some judgement. After all...
14) At some point you have to leave the garage for food and sex, not necessarily in that order.
Full thread: http://www.autopia.org/forums/showth...8&pagenumber=1
11-14-2004, 12:33 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
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Originally Posted by Red1
Apparently, at some point in time my car suffered from an owner who was fond of drive-through automatic car washes. There is a pattern of straight marks, and they really show on the rear edge of the hood and the front edge of the roof.
I've tried Meguiar's Swirl Remover 2.0 in conjunction with a Porter Cable 7424 random orbital polisher, to some success. Does anyone have any other suggestions, or just more elbow grease?
I am fortunate that the car was garaged or in a car port up to when I bought it. The Guards Red is in pretty fair shape, with the exception of the car wash marks.
TIA
I've tried Meguiar's Swirl Remover 2.0 in conjunction with a Porter Cable 7424 random orbital polisher, to some success. Does anyone have any other suggestions, or just more elbow grease?
I am fortunate that the car was garaged or in a car port up to when I bought it. The Guards Red is in pretty fair shape, with the exception of the car wash marks.
TIA
More likely than not your Porsche is the victim of "halo scratches" or "marring" caused by washing and not true swirls.
Swirls, true swirls. are caused by a rotary buffer and an abrasive product and/or pad combination. They are basically microscratches and may take on the appearance of a 3D flowing ribbon hologram within your paint.
With a random orbital polisher you can only have limited success as these do not generate enough heat and friction to properly abrade away the paint imperfections. this is why many manufacturers make products that HIDE and FILL these imperfections instead of removing them.
Meguairs #7, #9, Imperial Hand Glaze and many others do not remove these imperfections but rather cover them, much like make-up does. Then when you wash your car the oils in these products evaporate and your imperfections return.
Hope that helps,
Anthony
