e-hybrid, don't get it for fuel savings
01-28-2019, 02:55 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
e-hybrid, don't get it for fuel savings
Hi everyone I had been planning on ordering an e-hybrid as soon as they take orders for a 2020 model year (hopefully June, July)... and I'd wanted to because of S-like performance along with gas savings and doing the earth a favor (relatively speaking, anyway). But as for savings... I just did a little math. And if I didn't make a mistake there hardly seems any savings running the e-hybrid on electrical power vs gasoline. Hopefully - one of you will say "na that's not right"...
How Much Money to completely charge the e-Hybrid?
14.1 kWh battery / 60% efficiency (house power to battery power- a ratio a Tesla friend observes) = 23.5 kWh
23.5 kWh * 12 c / KWh (Southern California Edison's super off peak rate midnight - 8 AM) = $2.82
$2.82 / 20 miles electric only range = 14 c / mile
---
Compares to (gasoline only)
$3.46/gallon (So Cal average premium per AAA) / 21 miles EPA combined = 16 c / mile
In essence, it costs about $2.82 to charge it and that saves you $3.46- you're saving 64 c / day- you'd never recover the difference in price over the life of the car. So then, why not get an S for about the same price, or base with sport chrono? Thanks everyone.
How Much Money to completely charge the e-Hybrid?
14.1 kWh battery / 60% efficiency (house power to battery power- a ratio a Tesla friend observes) = 23.5 kWh
23.5 kWh * 12 c / KWh (Southern California Edison's super off peak rate midnight - 8 AM) = $2.82
$2.82 / 20 miles electric only range = 14 c / mile
---
Compares to (gasoline only)
$3.46/gallon (So Cal average premium per AAA) / 21 miles EPA combined = 16 c / mile
In essence, it costs about $2.82 to charge it and that saves you $3.46- you're saving 64 c / day- you'd never recover the difference in price over the life of the car. So then, why not get an S for about the same price, or base with sport chrono? Thanks everyone.
01-30-2019, 01:51 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
There are lots of discussions on plug-in cars and cost savings on the Taycan/Mission E section of Rennlist, as well as at the long thread of 1700+ posts for the Panamera 4 E-Hybrid (which I own). I have eight months of experience with my E-Hybrid, in which I have done a cross-country trip and a couple of overnight regional trips, with most of the driving in 7 of those 8 months being local (13 miles each way to my office; errands; family stuff; etc.). For my local driving, I typically get 1000-1200 miles to a tank of gas, as I can and do drive most of the way to and from my office on all-electric. Personally, I plug in every night in my garage and have a full charge the next morning. My electric bill has gone up about $50-$60 per month due to the car charging nightly, but I'm saving $150-$160 per month in gas (and enjoying not going to gas stations more than once a month!) -- with a total net savings of about $100/month out-of-pocket. I'd much rather be putting money into electric bills than to oil companies, and the convenience of plugging in at night and going to the gas station about 1/5 as often is priceless.
Because of my experience with the 14-kWh-capacity Panamera E-Hybrid, I would never consider a Cayenne or a Panamera that was not an E-Hybrid. The torque is amazing, and 462 hp is quite honestly more than enough power (with 515 lb-ft of torque). I've driven the new Panamera Turbos, and I'd take a Pan4 E-Hybrid any day over the Turbo (the extra 100-or-so horsepower in the Turbo isn't noticeably greater to me, a testament to how great the 4 E-Hybrids are). I can't figure out why anybody would even consider buying a Pan 4S when the E-Hybrid is cheaper, more powerful, and more fun. These E-Hybrids are the best 4-door vehicles that Porsche makes right now. I'm hoping they'll come out with a Macan E-Hybrid soon.
Because of my experience with the 14-kWh-capacity Panamera E-Hybrid, I would never consider a Cayenne or a Panamera that was not an E-Hybrid. The torque is amazing, and 462 hp is quite honestly more than enough power (with 515 lb-ft of torque). I've driven the new Panamera Turbos, and I'd take a Pan4 E-Hybrid any day over the Turbo (the extra 100-or-so horsepower in the Turbo isn't noticeably greater to me, a testament to how great the 4 E-Hybrids are). I can't figure out why anybody would even consider buying a Pan 4S when the E-Hybrid is cheaper, more powerful, and more fun. These E-Hybrids are the best 4-door vehicles that Porsche makes right now. I'm hoping they'll come out with a Macan E-Hybrid soon.
01-30-2019, 02:58 PM
#3
Instructor
Thread Starter
This is exactly the kind of advice I was hoping for. Thank you. I'm all in.
Plus since I wrote this post (yesterday), I've found the efficiency of house / car charge is closer to 85%. Which means a full charge would be $1.99 (not $2.82) which would save $3.46 in gas. AND, we just got solar panels installed, and they are producing ~ $50 / month more electricity than we are using (even in winter months- the lowest expected production months). Turns out- at the end of the year, in Southern California you can only get paid about 3.7c / kWh for any excess power you've generated during the year. So if you wanted to be cheap on this, oversize a solar install a bit such that you make enough power to charge your Cayenne.
But I get it cometguy, none of this is the point. Torque is the point. And having fun driving your Cayenne. Thank you.
Plus since I wrote this post (yesterday), I've found the efficiency of house / car charge is closer to 85%. Which means a full charge would be $1.99 (not $2.82) which would save $3.46 in gas. AND, we just got solar panels installed, and they are producing ~ $50 / month more electricity than we are using (even in winter months- the lowest expected production months). Turns out- at the end of the year, in Southern California you can only get paid about 3.7c / kWh for any excess power you've generated during the year. So if you wanted to be cheap on this, oversize a solar install a bit such that you make enough power to charge your Cayenne.
But I get it cometguy, none of this is the point. Torque is the point. And having fun driving your Cayenne. Thank you.
01-30-2019, 03:34 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
cometguy, one thing I can clarify for you regarding our decision to go Turbo versus e-Hybrid is this: sound. Exhaust note and ICE rumbles are a major part of the driving experience for my wife and me. We're old-school folks who enjoy racing and the immature noises created by big, tuned engines burning lots of dinosaur juice. The Turbo is the only car in the Cayenne lineup that fits that bill for us. (And even then, we added PSE to ensure as much racket as possible.)
We've driven a few base Cayennes and were impressed (see my related thread) but for the exhaust sound. They were too quiet for our taste. We would not have handed Porsche our money for one of them for that reason alone. Many folks don't get the need for noise; we're in the opposite camp. We can't understand buying a Porsche that didn't know how to make a racket from time to time, whether it's an SUV or GT car. That Porsche badge on the front means performance, and part of performance to us means the car had better sound the business.
We are in the minority here, I am sure. But this information may help you relate when you wonder why anybody would buy a non-hybrid Porsche. For us, the car IS the sound. Without it, no sale -- until there's just no other option out there, which is coming soon. We'll cross that sad bridge when we come to it.
Cheers -- and enjoy your Panamera. We love 'em (well, the noisy and rude ones, anyway)!
We've driven a few base Cayennes and were impressed (see my related thread) but for the exhaust sound. They were too quiet for our taste. We would not have handed Porsche our money for one of them for that reason alone. Many folks don't get the need for noise; we're in the opposite camp. We can't understand buying a Porsche that didn't know how to make a racket from time to time, whether it's an SUV or GT car. That Porsche badge on the front means performance, and part of performance to us means the car had better sound the business.
We are in the minority here, I am sure. But this information may help you relate when you wonder why anybody would buy a non-hybrid Porsche. For us, the car IS the sound. Without it, no sale -- until there's just no other option out there, which is coming soon. We'll cross that sad bridge when we come to it.
Cheers -- and enjoy your Panamera. We love 'em (well, the noisy and rude ones, anyway)!
01-30-2019, 03:42 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
cometguy, one thing I can clarify for you regarding our decision to go Turbo versus e-Hybrid is this: sound. Exhaust note and ICE rumbles are a major part of the driving experience for my wife and me. We're old-school folks who enjoy racing and the immature noises created by big, tuned engines burning lots of dinosaur juice. The Turbo is the only car in the Cayenne lineup that fits that bill for us. (And even then, we added PSE to ensure as much racket as possible.)
We've driven a few base Cayennes and were impressed (see my related thread) but for the exhaust sound. They were too quiet for our taste. We would not have handed Porsche our money for one of them for that reason alone. Many folks don't get the need for noise; we're in the opposite camp. We can't understand buying a Porsche that didn't know how to make a racket from time to time, whether it's an SUV or GT car. That Porsche badge on the front means performance, and part of performance to us means the car had better sound the business.
We are in the minority here, I am sure. But this information may help you relate when you wonder why anybody would buy a non-hybrid Porsche. For us, the car IS the sound. Without it, no sale -- until there's just no other option out there, which is coming soon. We'll cross that sad bridge when we come to it.
Cheers -- and enjoy your Panamera. We love 'em (well, the noisy and rude ones, anyway)!
We've driven a few base Cayennes and were impressed (see my related thread) but for the exhaust sound. They were too quiet for our taste. We would not have handed Porsche our money for one of them for that reason alone. Many folks don't get the need for noise; we're in the opposite camp. We can't understand buying a Porsche that didn't know how to make a racket from time to time, whether it's an SUV or GT car. That Porsche badge on the front means performance, and part of performance to us means the car had better sound the business.
We are in the minority here, I am sure. But this information may help you relate when you wonder why anybody would buy a non-hybrid Porsche. For us, the car IS the sound. Without it, no sale -- until there's just no other option out there, which is coming soon. We'll cross that sad bridge when we come to it.
Cheers -- and enjoy your Panamera. We love 'em (well, the noisy and rude ones, anyway)!
01-31-2019, 03:43 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
cometguy, one thing I can clarify for you regarding our decision to go Turbo versus e-Hybrid is this: sound. Exhaust note and ICE rumbles are a major part of the driving experience for my wife and me. We're old-school folks who enjoy racing and the immature noises created by big, tuned engines burning lots of dinosaur juice. The Turbo is the only car in the Cayenne lineup that fits that bill for us. (And even then, we added PSE to ensure as much racket as possible.)
We've driven a few base Cayennes and were impressed (see my related thread) but for the exhaust sound. They were too quiet for our taste. We would not have handed Porsche our money for one of them for that reason alone. Many folks don't get the need for noise; we're in the opposite camp. We can't understand buying a Porsche that didn't know how to make a racket from time to time, whether it's an SUV or GT car. That Porsche badge on the front means performance, and part of performance to us means the car had better sound the business.
We are in the minority here, I am sure. But this information may help you relate when you wonder why anybody would buy a non-hybrid Porsche. For us, the car IS the sound. Without it, no sale -- until there's just no other option out there, which is coming soon. We'll cross that sad bridge when we come to it.
Cheers -- and enjoy your Panamera. We love 'em (well, the noisy and rude ones, anyway)!
We've driven a few base Cayennes and were impressed (see my related thread) but for the exhaust sound. They were too quiet for our taste. We would not have handed Porsche our money for one of them for that reason alone. Many folks don't get the need for noise; we're in the opposite camp. We can't understand buying a Porsche that didn't know how to make a racket from time to time, whether it's an SUV or GT car. That Porsche badge on the front means performance, and part of performance to us means the car had better sound the business.
We are in the minority here, I am sure. But this information may help you relate when you wonder why anybody would buy a non-hybrid Porsche. For us, the car IS the sound. Without it, no sale -- until there's just no other option out there, which is coming soon. We'll cross that sad bridge when we come to it.
Cheers -- and enjoy your Panamera. We love 'em (well, the noisy and rude ones, anyway)!
The list of things I don't like about my Volvo V90 Cross Country is long, but the engine noise is high up the list. Nominally, the power is there...over 300hp and lb-ft with the Polestar tune, but...4-cyl, turbo and super charged...the engine note reminds me of my uncle's 1980's Subarus.
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02-01-2019, 09:15 PM
#11
I don’t get the e-hybrid thing at all.
02-01-2019, 10:09 PM
#12
Burning Brakes
The money I have saved in getting my E-Hybrid helped to justify getting a Porsche. I would not have bought a Porsche if not for the E-Hybrid.
02-01-2019, 10:22 PM
#13
cometguy, one thing I can clarify for you regarding our decision to go Turbo versus e-Hybrid is this: sound. Exhaust note and ICE rumbles are a major part of the driving experience for my wife and me. We're old-school folks who enjoy racing and the immature noises created by big, tuned engines burning lots of dinosaur juice. The Turbo is the only car in the Cayenne lineup that fits that bill for us. (And even then, we added PSE to ensure as much racket as possible.)
We've driven a few base Cayennes and were impressed (see my related thread) but for the exhaust sound. They were too quiet for our taste. We would not have handed Porsche our money for one of them for that reason alone. Many folks don't get the need for noise; we're in the opposite camp. We can't understand buying a Porsche that didn't know how to make a racket from time to time, whether it's an SUV or GT car. That Porsche badge on the front means performance, and part of performance to us means the car had better sound the business.
We are in the minority here, I am sure. But this information may help you relate when you wonder why anybody would buy a non-hybrid Porsche. For us, the car IS the sound. Without it, no sale -- until there's just no other option out there, which is coming soon. We'll cross that sad bridge when we come to it.
Cheers -- and enjoy your Panamera. We love 'em (well, the noisy and rude ones, anyway)!
We've driven a few base Cayennes and were impressed (see my related thread) but for the exhaust sound. They were too quiet for our taste. We would not have handed Porsche our money for one of them for that reason alone. Many folks don't get the need for noise; we're in the opposite camp. We can't understand buying a Porsche that didn't know how to make a racket from time to time, whether it's an SUV or GT car. That Porsche badge on the front means performance, and part of performance to us means the car had better sound the business.
We are in the minority here, I am sure. But this information may help you relate when you wonder why anybody would buy a non-hybrid Porsche. For us, the car IS the sound. Without it, no sale -- until there's just no other option out there, which is coming soon. We'll cross that sad bridge when we come to it.
Cheers -- and enjoy your Panamera. We love 'em (well, the noisy and rude ones, anyway)!
02-02-2019, 04:12 AM
#14
Burning Brakes
That being said, he went from a 2009 Corvette Grand Sport with the same low-tech V8 that's in my archaic Aussie 2016 SS. Both of us agree that GM's cheapy small-block V8 of that generation (and the newer ones, such as the LT series) do a better job of raising the hairs on the back of your neck than any of the Germans. Whether the cars they power are faster is another question altogether. The noises both of our GM cars make are frankly stupid, and sometimes scary -- as in, "Should the car really be sounding THAT kind of backfire? The damned muffler's gonna blow off."
I am curious why dropping $150K on a Panamera Turbo is okay with you, but a $150K Cayenne Turbo is not. Neither is a traditional 911; both are viewed by lots of folks as not "real" Porsches; and the Cayenne presents increased utility, at the expense of its perception of being a wagon on stilts. I personally love the Panamara, as does my wife. She chose the Cayenne because she wanted more space, and the ability to sit higher. But they're both fantastic cars IMHO; each fits a different need.
I would be curious to see how fast the 2019 Cayenne TT runs around the Nurburgring compared with a Panny TT. My gut tells me the two won't be far apart.
02-02-2019, 08:01 AM
#15
A buddy of mine bought a 2018 AMG C63 six months ago, including the sport exhaust. Among the German lux Big Three, we think Mercedes' presentation of a badass V8 sounds the best. His car is damned cool. Love it.
That being said, he went from a 2009 Corvette Grand Sport with the same low-tech V8 that's in my archaic Aussie 2016 SS. Both of us agree that GM's cheapy small-block V8 of that generation (and the newer ones, such as the LT series) do a better job of raising the hairs on the back of your neck than any of the Germans. Whether the cars they power are faster is another question altogether. The noises both of our GM cars make are frankly stupid, and sometimes scary -- as in, "Should the car really be sounding THAT kind of backfire? The damned muffler's gonna blow off."
I am curious why dropping $150K on a Panamera Turbo is okay with you, but a $150K Cayenne Turbo is not. Neither is a traditional 911; both are viewed by lots of folks as not "real" Porsches; and the Cayenne presents increased utility, at the expense of its perception of being a wagon on stilts. I personally love the Panamara, as does my wife. She chose the Cayenne because she wanted more space, and the ability to sit higher. But they're both fantastic cars IMHO; each fits a different need.
I would be curious to see how fast the 2019 Cayenne TT runs around the Nurburgring compared with a Panny TT. My gut tells me the two won't be far apart.
That being said, he went from a 2009 Corvette Grand Sport with the same low-tech V8 that's in my archaic Aussie 2016 SS. Both of us agree that GM's cheapy small-block V8 of that generation (and the newer ones, such as the LT series) do a better job of raising the hairs on the back of your neck than any of the Germans. Whether the cars they power are faster is another question altogether. The noises both of our GM cars make are frankly stupid, and sometimes scary -- as in, "Should the car really be sounding THAT kind of backfire? The damned muffler's gonna blow off."
I am curious why dropping $150K on a Panamera Turbo is okay with you, but a $150K Cayenne Turbo is not. Neither is a traditional 911; both are viewed by lots of folks as not "real" Porsches; and the Cayenne presents increased utility, at the expense of its perception of being a wagon on stilts. I personally love the Panamara, as does my wife. She chose the Cayenne because she wanted more space, and the ability to sit higher. But they're both fantastic cars IMHO; each fits a different need.
I would be curious to see how fast the 2019 Cayenne TT runs around the Nurburgring compared with a Panny TT. My gut tells me the two won't be far apart.
The reason I believe dropping $150k on a Pan vs. Cay is that I have grown up in an era where cars were considered special while trucks where just for you utility...like used to work on the ranch, go to feed store, etc. Buuut. the family car was very special and used when we’d all go out to dinner or head to San Fran so Mom could do a little shopping. So I’ve been ingrained with the thought that the car is the most valuable of vehicles and should be treated as such. The Pan turbo will turns way more heads and be treated more special by Valet compared to a turbo Cayenne. One of many instances was my buddy and our families meeting for dinner at the St. Julien in Boulder for dinner. They arrived in his MY16CTTS and then in my MY14 CLS63s. Guess who’s vehicle they put out front like it was on display. Mine cost me $120k and his was in the $160k+ I’m sure. It happened every single time i went to the 4 seasons for Sunday brunch, dinner, etc. They always put my car on display and kicked out an suv if room was needed. Suvs are just not looked at the same unless you’re driving a Gwagon which draws attention like a Pan turbo or even the Pan 4s.
Sorry, I know that was bit winded but it’s hard for me to see as much value in the SUV compared to a car and not because it attracts more attention, but it’s just looks more special to me. I would take the Pan over the Cay if my wife was annoyed by how low it was when getting in and out, plus the kids find the rear area to be on the small size. The Cay S will make a great road trip vehicle and that’s the main purpose for us and needing the space for all the Lacrosse gear, luggage, etc. I needs the utility 🤪