Gus B.

While doing more research on the subject of PCCB and Cayennes, I came across this video where the new owner bought the truck with the brakes and rotors replaced right before he bought the car and the price is almost the same as here locally (±$28K). His Turbo shows 120K kms. on the clock (seen at the 4:35 mark on the video and later). His mileage (120K kms.) goes in line with what the local dealer told me would be the expected total life of the vehicle I'm looking at (has 95K now and normal use is about 10K per year, though I expect to use it less than that). See here:


120K kms. is roughtly 75K miles. Will dig deeper to see if this is considered "lifetime of vehicle" in the US and elsewhere. At the end of the day, this is starting to look less and less attractive. Shame, because otherwise it's perfect shape and spec.

For those who may be thinking that the price of brakes is too much of a concern for me, you are 100% correct. You'd also may want to know I've owned used Cayenne Turbo and a couple of 911s before and I know what it takes to run these things. That said, none had PCCB and when you get to a point where a vehicle's value is almost less than the brake job it requires, makes you think (at least it does to me) twice before pulling the trigger. Finding one like this with steel brakes is like finding a needle in a haystack. Guess an option would be to park the vehicle for ±45-60 days, send the discs to ReDisc in Europe, pay the ±$8.5K to have them refinished and be done with it. Replacing ceramics for steel rotors and pads will apparently end up costing the same as refinishing the ceramics. Local dealer told me that normally brake pads only last about 30K kms. (±20K miles) with the way our roads/traffic are down here... Rotors are typically replaced every three set of pads (applies to ceramics and steel).

Simeon

If the rest of the car is good.. why not plan to do a steel rotor conversion when the PCCBs are done?

Gus B.

The rest of the car is very good. Has all the options that I'd wish for (except for Burmester). Has 10 months left of CPO warranty. The COO of the local dealer has told me he knows the entire history of that truck throughout its life (3 owners, all with multiple Porsches) and if he had the money, he'd buy it himself for his wife.

The "problem" with this possible scenario is that at the end of the day when I'll sell the truck in 3-5 years from now, I'd be "stuck" with a truck that I paid regular market price and will only get regular market price for it. The fact that it has PCCB adds no additional value at all on the secondary market, on the contrary, but I'd still have the extra expense (over a regular steel based Turbo) of dealing with the brake disc situation: 1- replace with new PCCB discs ($30K), 2- resurface current discs with ReDisc (and have no truck for 45-60 days, +$8.5K), or 3- switch to steel rotors and pads (believe a new set of discs and pads is about $8K too). Those three scenarios would add anywhere from $8-$30K to my ownership experience over a Turbo that has steel brakes this on a truck that is currently worth $25K and will soon (in 5 years) worth no more than $10K. That is just how this local market is. People that buy $10K vehicles usually don't have the funds to maintain a gas guzzling twin turbo V8 European truck that has potential maintenance costs that could easily surpass the value of the truck, hence the little value that it will soon have. I for one see it as driving and enjoying a $180K truck for a total cost of $15K (depreciation in 5 years) which is nothing compared to what owners of new trucks spend... One thing is spending $15K to do so (depreciation alone), another is spending that amount, plus whatever the brake situation will cost me....

If my numbers are off for the steel conversion, then please do let me know and this can all change. The final PPI results should be in later today.

Simeon

Maybe look into possibility to directly bolt on regular Turbo steel rotors and pads. And worse case may also need regular Turbo calipers. You should be able to resell the PCCB calipers to recoup some of the cost to buy the turbo steel brake calipers and then its no different than doing a regular brake job on turbo with steel rotors. Maybe just a little more that first time and no different going forward.

Simeon

Also, if you plan to own it for 3-5 years and it was a steel brake version, a brake job would probably be needed in that time frame. So even if it came with the steel brakes, they might have even needed service sooner rather than later and you'd still be due for that $8k brake job. But even that seems a little high for me. Is that with labor or just parts?

Another option is also to buy it and offer to trade your brakes with someone with steel brakes for no money exchange (maybe new steel rotors and pads from the other guy). There would be takers.

Gus B.

Thanks Simeon for all of your observations. Working on putting together the summary of all of my findings so it may help others in the future.

Need to do more research regarding what it takes to convert from PCCB to steel rotors and pads (not sure about calipers), but I'm exhausted from all the researching and dealing with the local dealership and seller of this truck... Selling the PCCB calipers locally will be next to impossible as there may be a handful (at best) of PCCB equipped Porsches locally. Shipping them back to the States will entail me getting on a plane and spend a day or two over there as regular cargo from Panama to USA is ±$100/lb. (versus ±$2/lb. from Miami to Panama...).

I've run the numbers assuming it was a steel brake job moving forward for the next 3-5 years versus PCCB and in terms of brake pads, it would be somewhat close (PCCBs ±15% more, but I'm more than OK with that). Where the HUGE difference comes is regarding discs. In that respect, PCCB is simply not an option as the cost of replacing the 4 discs with new PCCB vastly surpasses the current purchase price of the vehicle. My real alternate options would be to send the discs to ReDisc or switch to steel discs (which I need to do further research to know exactly what it will cost to do so).

Gus B.

Checking for wear on carbon ceramic brake (CCB) discs:

This will depend on whether or not the rotor hub/hats have Proceq markings (three of them) or not. If the hub of the brake disc does in fact have the Proceq markings on it, then it’s very simple procedure to determine brake disc wear, assuming that you have access to the Carboteq measuring tool from Proceq (known as the VAS6813 in the Porsche world). Since Proceq started to be commercially available in 2014, odds are that carbon ceramic discs manufactured before 2014 will not have the Proceq markings on the hubs. This video is self-explanatory on what the markings look like and how to take the measurements:
If you own a disc that does not have the Proceq markings on the rotor hubs, then determining carbon ceramic brake (CCB) disc wear follows a separate procedure on estimating what percentage of wear has taken place. The following steps yield a much more imprecise result, but it’s better than taking a leap of faith regarding purchasing a vehicle with used carbon ceramic discs. First you will need to understand the information stamped on the brake disc hub (assuming it’s different from the one shown in the video posted above):




Step 1- visually inspect the discs to find the three wear indicators (on each side of the disc). These round indicators (approximately 2 cm. or 3/4”) are spaced 120° from each other. When the discs have relatively little use, these can be at times hard to see unless you shine a bright light on them. If these wear indicators have a different color and can be easily seen, this means your disc is approximately 50% used. If these wear indicators can be seen, then you need to proceed to Step 2.



Step 2- measure thickness of the brake disc. You will need a very accurate micrometer / digital caliper for this. The minimum thickness will be stamped on the brake disc hub (each disc could have a different amount printed on its hub). If the obtained result equals minimum thickness plus 0.2mm measurement stamped on the hub, then you need to proceed to Step 3.






Step 3- weigh the brake disc. The original weight of the disc will be stamped on the brake disc (it could vary per disc on the same vehicle). The scale used to measure the disc must have the ability to measure ± 1 gram and the range that it needs to be able to weigh must be between 0 and 12 kilograms. Each manufacturer will have the maximum allowable weight loss for each disc indicated in their service manual.

Other miscellaneous information: it is normal to have what appear to be micro cracks/fractures all over the disc, even when new, even on the cooling duct cross-members. What is not normal is to have cracks from the hub to the braking surface of the disc (requires immediate replacement). Also not normal is that the braking surface has presents multiple areas where the surface seems to have chipped off. It is also not normal, and requires immediate replacement, are chips on the edge border of the disc. To say that carbon discs are a “lifetime part” is simply not true. Based on use, the “lifetime” will vary greatly from one owner to another (assuming same vehicle). If to this we add that each vehicle will have different wear characteristics, then determining expected usage left becomes even more complicated, but by following the steps listed above, one can have a better guess. To say that discs have X more time left or Y more miles left in them is a completely absurd statement to make as there is no way to determine this as there are too many variables to consider.

I am not a mechanic nor pretend to be one. I am currently going through a purchase process for a 2011 Cayenne Turbo equipped with PCCB brakes and knowing that brake disc replacement can easily cost $28K, I wanted to dig deeper into this. All of the information provided above is the summary of days of research among various well known automotive related web boards such as this one, but truthfully said, if it were not for the clarifications and technical documentation (my source for images used) obtained from Maja Bašelj from ReDisc, I would have not been completely sure of what I’ve posted above. My hope is that this information will be of help to others in similar situation in the future and they can find a place where they can find all of the information they need to make an educated decision.

Gus B.

Apparently the braking surface of the CCB discs/rotors do wear like a typical steel rotor. Replacement time comes around when the friction layer is worn and the substrate is exposed. Here is a pic from the tech manual I have that explains the difference between the two layers. For non-Proceq identified rotors this is why the wear indicators are so important to keep an eye on.



My local dealer quoted me 8 hours to remove and weigh all discs (same time allocation as stated in the video I linked above). Decided against it as I rather spend the $800 in something else... Regular PPI with a simple disc width measurement is $150 and that is the one I chose.

Gus B.

Regarding production date stamped on CCB rotors, it's read the same way as on tires: the first two digits represent the week of the year in which they were manufactured. The remaining two digits refer to the year in which the discs were manufactured. The following pic is from the CTT in question that I'm considering purchasing (with a date code of 48/10 meaning 48th week of the year 2010).

Quadcammer

Just as a reference, I purchased 4 good condition turbo calipers with pads and front and rear new OE rotors for under $1500. Install is trivial.

Gus B.

Small, but very important, additional information regarding PCCBs on Cayennes (958 series): I just got done talking to a very large and reputable Porsche dealership in USA and the person told me that you can in fact "easily" swap out PCCB disc for Porsche steel (Turbo) discs, BUT THIS CAN ONLY BE DONE IF YOU HAVE 390MM PCCBs.

The truck I'm looking at has options 1LX (Front brake discs for min. 20" wheels, yellow calipers (PCCB)) and 2EH (Rear brake discs for min. 19" wheels, yellow calipers (PCCB)) which means that the front discs are 410mm, not 390mm. PCCB 390mm front discs use the same caliper as the 390mm steel discs. Cayennes equipped with options 1LX and 2EH have different calipers from all other models. If you want to change to steel discs, then you need to basically change calipers, rotors, pads, knuckles and a whole other series of parts.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that these are the following correct sizes (front/rear in mm): PCCB: 410/370 ; PCCB 390/358; Steel (Turbo): 390/358.

Gus B.

Additional information for reference sake: GiroDisc does not offer an option to replace the discs if the truck has the 1LX and 2EH options (410mm fronts and I believe 370mm rears) PCCB brakes.

Brembo too does not offer a direct replacement for the ceramic discs with the aforementioned options, but TPC Racing will in fact configure a kit consisting of hub adapters, Brembo GT calipers, discs, and pads for a total investment of ±$10.5K (plus shipping and labor).

Again, my hope is that this information proves to be useful in the future for someone considering the purchase of a CTT with PCCBs on it.

Kenrevo

I don't know the quality but I came across RacingBrake in my research who makes a much of sizes and conversion kits. I never reached out to them since I got a non PCCB car.

Also, I wonder if you can replace the brake rotor rings with steel and reuse the hats; my racing buddies do this all the time. If you are in the US check out Coleman Racing; all they do is custom but there are some limitations.

Gus B.

Thanks @Kenrevo . Will reach out to RacingBrake and Coleman Racing to see if they have a solution that doesn't entail >$10K "fix" or a $8K resurfacing (and no use of the truck for 45-60 days)....

Gus B.

Still waiting to hear from RacingBrake and Coleman Racing, but I'm not holding my breath on them having a simple steel rotor swap for this truck.

Still waiting to hear from the local dealership regarding the thickness of each rotor on the vehicle I'm considering purchasing. Other items that unexpectedly came up during the PPI (among them a brake pad replacement required) have thrown off the schedule to perform this activity.

What I did get from the dealer is the following pic that clearly shows one of the wear indicators on the rear left disc. As luck would have it, when it came into the shop for the PPI, only the front left and rear right wheels came off to try and use the Proceq tool. It was not until recently that the tech noticed this wear indicator while the truck was parked outside. Not sure if this is what it looks like when it requires replacement or not. On the rear right, the wear indicator was only visible when the tech used his shop light to properly illuminate the wheel well. Comments on how this wear indicator looks are more than welcome.