V8 going away
 

My salesman tells me the Panny's V8 will be replaced by a turbo V6.
the GTS, TT, and TTS will retain the V8, for now.

Is this also the case w/ the Cayennes? Salesman didnt know.


So why P doing this? I cant believe its just for fuel savings.

The Panamera S and 4S have already been replaced with a Turbo V6 that makes more HP and torque than the base V8, although it's not going to have the V8 rumble. I don't think there's any question that fuel economy is driving the change and for that reason I wouldn't be surprised to see the Turbo V6 in the Cayenne at some point.

interesting. Lemme guess the price will not be any lower. These NA V8 are going away and I dont like the trend. furthermore I think the VW sourced v6 is crap. Ok im finished whining.

The VW VR6 is a great engine.
Granted, it doesn't split it coolant tubes in order to cool it's starter, but let's not hold that against it.

hahaha!

now on the other hand if P puts the flat 6 in it....

Cafe standards are driving this.

You're obviously smoking the "crack pipe" and know little about the VR6 then.:icon501:


(See image for plastic VR6 "crack pipe" and metal replacement to prevent future breakage and soaking of components....like the starter:evilgrin:)


http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/a...ine=1369319764

Guys, this isn't related to the VW based VR6 used in the base Cayenne. It's an all Porsche engine.

I know. Just pointing out that the previously used VR6 did technically suffer from "coolant pipe" issues:D

A well turbocharged V6 can be a monster. I had a 500hp twin turbo V6 in an Audi S4. Fun, but talk about a real maintenance pig! My Cayenne Turbo has been a dream to maintain after that POS!

I can't disagree. Even though the V6 is a Porsche engine, the demise of the V8 is kind of sad. A big reason (among others) why I bought a Cayenne instead of a Touareg in 2011 is because I wanted a V8.

I had a Touareg V8 when VW still sold them. It was an Audi engine. 350hp FSI. Awesome engine. No issues at all other then intake motor flaps failing three times.

Not surprised the V8 is going away. Big waste of fuel. The V6 supercharged will be just as fun and powerful.

Love all the VW/Audi bashing here. It's hilarious how condescending some Porsche snot rags can be. Thanks for the chuckle.

Not snotty, or condescending at all. Still own a VW and an Audi.(and have had many) But the pure facts are that my Audis and VW have cost WAY more to own and maintain than my Porsches. ;)

....and some of my VW and Audis have cost more to buy than the Porsches, So I don't know where you get this perspective at all.

Hey, just my $0.02 from a lot of posters in this particular sub-forum. I'm new to learning about the Porsche but have been a VDubber for a long, long time. Interested in the Cayenne diesel...have a Touareg TDI now, so my only exposure to the Porsche world is the Cayenne.

I can't imagine the Cayenne diesel to be less to maintain then the Touareg TDI. Oil changes every 5k for $200 a pop and any other maintenance likely higher but I don't really know for sure. That's why I'm here to learn. :)

the VW VR6, wasnt that a narrow angle v6 1st used in sporting VWs like the GTI? I dont know VW's engine designations.

My surly comment about the V6 is based on a PITA 07 Audi A6 (I believe it was a 3.2L v6) that developed a carbon build up issue and v6 loaners (mainly Chayennes) that i get from my dealer. I find them to be rough and noisy.

Separately I find it interesting that P cant find a way to make the V8 more fuel efficient w/o restorting to turbos, especially for these 4 DR S models that can easily top $100k. I wonder if the GTS and TT are headed for the same fate.

Agree the V6 gasser on the base Cayenne/Touareg is not ideal. Not enough engine/power for the weight. I think the reason P does not even attempt to make the V8 more fuel efficient without turbos is because there's no future...too little fuel economy gain for the R&D.

If you want a smooth, quiet engine the V6 turbo diesel is very quiet. The torque is amazing. Imagine what the V8 TDI is like, well, we can't in the States but in Europe...

Yes. The VR6 used in early Cayennes/Touaregs is an extremely "narrow angle", at 15* more of an inline 6 than a V.

They are very "growly" motors. Not appropriate for a large heavy SUV.


I've got a 24v version in my Eurovan. It cruises the freeways fine, but stoplight to stoplight its painfully slow.


http://image.turbomagazine.com/f/248...+vr6_block.jpg

If a GT-R comes out of the box with a twin turbo V6 that makes 545 HP and does 0-60 in 4.3 how can the right V6 be so bad? Plus you can tune them up to 1000 HP. I would think that P could make a very nice V6 if they wanted to.

The basic issue is not one of total peak power(hp/tq) but of non - boosted power and low rpm power (say sub 2krpm where almost no turbo can go)

A larger displacement engine will typically put out more power down low (think towing, 4wheeling, etc use) and also have enough power to run down the road without "having" to use boost. Also greater throttle response as it doesn't need to wait for boost to build, etc.

A larger displacement engine with a small amount of boost is also typically more reliable than a small engine with a large amount of boost to reach the same peak power levels.

I had a base VR6 loaner the last time my diesel went in for service, a 2013 with only 275 miles on it. Comparatively - it sucked. Noisy, slow winding, and fuel thirsty. Despite 60 fewer horsepower, the diesel is a much more refined/ powerful/economical ride. Anyway - given that there's already a supercharged V6 in the Cayenne Hybrid - I can't help but wonder if a tweaked variation of that engine might replace the base V8

//greg//

Great engine with lots of potential bit it would seem to be a step backwards for a Cayenne. It's the Audi "3.0t" (no idea why they kept then"t" when it went to a supercharger vs turbos)

They already offer it in the Q7. I imagine trying to stretch this motor to Cayenne Turbo V8 power would yield even worse fuel economy. Check out the comparison from fueleconomy.gov below.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7450/9...c83a50_b_d.jpg

Nope, it won't be. As Cole said, that's an Audi engine.

Yes, you are right about the low end power with the V6. Seems like a boosted V8 diesel is the way to go.

I would have had no problem buying a Tourareg V8 and I certainly have nothing against VW/Audi as I've owned several of each including an S4 Avant V8 (which was a great engine) and our current A3 TDI. But by 2011, when I bought my Cayenne S, VW was no longer putting the V8 in the Tourareg.

I don't really see what is to gain there.

The V6 Diesel is really enough for most towing duty.

But the V8 Diesel would be MUCH Heavier and not as spirited as the V8 Turbo Gasser for ultimate driving.

Diesels are great for down low grunt, but part of the sporty fun comes with the higher revinn gasser.

I honestly think my fuel economy is just fine for a 500+ hp 5200lb SUV that can tow 7716lbs and be autocrossed or tracked the same day.

Deviate too far towards "utility" and I think the Cayenne will lose some of its following.

Not to mention the diesels can't be equipped with PTV+ or PDCC.

Still, modern diesels make a good match for any heavy vehicle. But yeah the low rev character of a diesel is more tailored towards utility. However when I had my 1.9l jetta tdi tuned to 200hp and 300+ ft lbs it "felt" like a beast. Torque is always great for giving the sensation of power even if its not that fast in actuality. So it kinda goes both ways.

The diesel is for more than towing. The modern diesel in the Cayenne/Touareg is fantastic. The low-end torque means you always have power at the ready. Want to pass someone on the highway, the power is instant and smooth as butter.

I was skeptical, too, when I was getting out if my V8 Touareg. I still wanted my V8. The TDI gives you almost the same power with tremendous mileage. Only negative is if you mostly drive in the city...I live in suburbs and work in city. Drive 20k a year and get 26-27mpg average.

Instead of me preaching, go test drive a Cayenne diesel and see for yourself. It's the best powertrain for they Cayenne...hands-down.

Its the best power train if you are going for a balance of all purposes. It is not the performance purists choice. But it is a great choice as a daily driver.

Agreed. I still encourage everyone to drive one.

Agreed. For an additional $4K over the V6, you get more power and better fuel economy. Lately, diesel has been cheaper than premium gas -- an added bonus. The CD doesn't find the need to downshift at often as the V6 when climbing hills. Still, I understand that some find the need for more power, fancy vectoring / suspension, and it is available for a price - a big price. It's a matter of personal preference, and the size of one's bank account.

As fincher suggests, go drive a CD if you haven't, and you might be surprised. I went from a $100K sticker 2004CT to a $70K sticker 2013CD, and yes, there is less power, but with the newer 8 speed transmission, and the torque, it doesn't feel that much less. Don't feel like I'm missing out by not getting one of the larger engines, and saved myself $40-50K.

I agree its mad to pay that kind of premium at the dealer. Give those prices about 4-6 years to level out and then the disparity between models will be way less. I understand that buying a new car appeals to a fair number of people. I am glad too because that means a lot of choices for me to buy a nice used specimen at a big discount.

Yep, my plan is to buy a used diesel, lightly used with the 6yr/100k certified warranty. They're starting to show up.

Yeah totally, I bet they will depreciate much slower than turbos and gts's.

Hold on a second while I push my margarita to the side and change hats.

Let me take off the "insane auto enthusiast" hat and find my "Economist" hat. (paid a small fortune for this one.)

For the sake of the discussion and the tequila I'm going to use massive amounts of generalization here.


Ready?

Despite all the advantages and advancement in diesels, gasoline is NEVER going away.

Simply put. When you harvest a "barrel of oil" you end up with 2 main products (and a bunch of smaller products). Gasoline and diesel!

There is a built in worldwide market for diesel. Goods transportation, shipping, trucking, rails,etc, all use a form of diesel. So if we have a market for half the barrel of oil, we need to maintain a market for the other half. Otherwise it becomes "waste" and not profit!

I agree that diesel is cool and efficient but "big oil", the biggest business on earth will do all it can to keep gas motors in the cycle.

All of this comes to a point. They can/do adjust the fuel prices so that the "economy" you get with the extra mileage becomes a wash at best over time.

Haha. Who said diesel would replace gas? Diesel is less in the summer and usually higher in the winter due to heating oil use.

Point is, diesel is more efficient and ideal for an SUV. In Europe, diesel is common among all vehicles, not just heavy-duty trucks.

People were just touting the diesel so highly.

Diesel is certainly NOT cheaper than premium around here on the summer, or winter.

Ok. In the Midwest it is less than gas...at least this summer and last summer.

With weight savings, direct injection and turbo charging.. gas engines are starting to behave more like diesel in terms of efficiency. If you factor in the fact that diesel has more energy by volume then the fuel economy is about the same on an ultimate level. But I will say that refineries in this country crack to favor gasoline production. Our governments policies have also geared towards diesel use for military, trucks and rail and steers consumer adoption away from diesels by ever stricter standards and lack of subsidy. Europe also buys our excess diesel and we get some of their gas. So there are definitely demographic issues at play if people en masse adopted diesels. But we all know it will take a long time for consumers to move to diesel vehicles especially considering the price premium.

Still for a heavy vehicle (in general) a torque monster diesel makes a lot of sense. I have have owned many diesel and gasoline cars. The wall of torque you get with a diesel allows you to accelerate without kicking down to a lower gear and creates the perception of abundant "power". A tuned diesel (bigger turbo, injectors, ecu) can be A LOT of fun... but i digress all of my last cars have been v8 gas cars. I feel like I might as well enjoy that reality while I can before v8's go the way of the dodo.

Still, in 6 years I may be quite tempted by a tdi 958 cayenne with DPF delete, and ecu tune.

Yeah, there is little incentive now to sell V8s here, unless its a Porsche, I guess. There once was the V10 TDI here for the Touareg...very coveted Touareg and a PIA to service. That is a lot of fun to drive.

For me, I really want the Cayenne diesel for the interior first.

yeah the v10 tdi's were the lust object for me back in my tdi days.. Heavy truck though at 6k lbs.

The V10 TDI has gone the way of the dodo, too.

Yeah it was a Piech era halo car move just like the phaeton, and bugati veyron. Dude was crazy but also knew how to bring it.. even if all the cool cars lost money.

Cool engine. Made for 8 years, just barely available in the USA.

Been driving a smoker in the UK all this week, driven around 1000 miles so far. All I can say it that I can't wait to get back to my car at Philly Airport next Monday. I am not cut out for that engine.

The VW V10 TDI rocks. I was addicted after I first test drove mine. 6 years later still addicted to the torque.

And generally, diesel costs more than premium gas by a few cents in the Omaha area. Some times they trade places but more often than not diesel is more.

Please be more specific as to the pedigree of this "smoker". All diesels are not created equal, especially when comparing both sides of the Atlantic.

//greg//

So, if you have a V8 they should become more valuable over time I guess?

I am not sure why we don't switch to CNG here in the US. It is one of our most plentiful resources and burns very clean. A CNG powered V8 Cayenne would be interesting, but I am not sure how it would perform?

not fracking interested

Touche'!

nice one!

I use LPG (propane / butane) in my TTS. good up to 500kw (680hp). no issues whatsoever, no power drop (got it dynoed), did 50k kms already on it since august 2011 when I had the conversion done.
there are tons of converted cars over in europe (mostly big V8s, US cars...), LPG is more widespread than CNG. CNG is mostly used in commercial vehicles, buses etc. some manufacturers have their cars CNG equipped from factory (OPEL /GM, Mercedes, VW, Skoda ... ) and get this: even Porsche had some p!gs factory equipped with LPG in Italy due to some kind of tax writeoff. I'm running the same system they used.

13 base D with 7k

Ok, it's clear some folks are harder to please than others. At first, I thought you might have rented a base Touareg, as they get the 150hp diesel - a four banger I think. But their Cayenne Diesel has the same basic 3.0 V6 that we get, which is tuned to 245hp versus the US-spec 240. Compared to your Cayenne S however, I understand. Having said that, most Cayenne base V8 owners relate much more positive opinions of the '13 diesel.

//greg//

Not an S anymore

I have a 2013 base tiptronic and I guess I am just not interested in reaching escape velocity, as I find the Porsche dressed VR6 more than ample motivation for the Cayenne. It has a nice growl and I can get 25 or 26 MPG on the highway. I have no problem passing on the turnpike. The auto trans is smooth and beautifully transfers the output to the wheels. A dependable 30 year old engine that is bullet proof and reliable. I just love it, but still get a kick out of reading all the debate over which is better the diesel or the V8 engine.

Funniest thing I have read so far. It's totally fine if you are satisfied with your anemic VR6. I own a 24V VR6 in my Eurovan and a CTT. The VR6 has been exponentially less reliable than the CTT.(I've actually had to replace the VR6 with a factory crate motor) It also gets the same fuel economy at less than half the power output:grr: It growls and growns so much more than the Cayenne V8. Not smooth at all by comparison.

The VR6 is "fine" while hanging out on the freeway but it is now where near as relaxing to drive around town as the big torque of the twin turbo V8.

That is why there are choices and I am satisfied with mine. I am confident there are many who have had to deal with the cylinder scoring in the V8s and other problems. Plus there are those that have had the 24v VR6 in the Cayenne plus other vehicles and have enjoyed them. These are machines and once in a while they malfunction. Though unfortunate, the nature of the beast. Everyone has their preferences.

LoL

Same story different thread. :banghead:

Did it ever occur to you that the Bugatti Veyron folks look down their noses at you CTT owners? Engines and transmissions have come a long ways, and the current Cayenne V6 offering can pull a fully loaded vehicle up a mountain very competently , the CD even better -- hardly anemic power trains. Need even better performance? Hit the Sport Mode button.

Not everyone finds the "big torque of the twin turbo V8" relaxing to drive around town. My wife found the response of our previous CTT overwhelming, and was nervous driving it. She currently drives the CV6, and think it's the best thing ever, although she really likes my CD.

That's OK -- make fun of my Cayennes. I really don't care, but there's always someone on the road, who is driving a more powerful vehicle than you. Just the truth.

The joke is on them. A dying breed.

Wow, some massive Assumptions made there. Nobody's "looking down their noses" at the V6 owners.:rolleyes: Hell, the guy that posts has a Cayenne 9 years newer than mine so if anything it would be the other way around.;)

The fact is that this is am"Porsche" and IMO a 5k lb vehicle doesn't feel very sporty with the little V6 in it. I'd even hate to have my 500hp/600lb 2.7l Audi V6 in a vehicle this heavy. It would be hella fun with your foot planted in it but, IMO a massive chore the rest of the time when off boost.

And who made fun of Cayennes? Wasn't me, I love mine !:rtfm:

Going back to the original point about 3.0 turbo v6, I read somewhere recently that a big motivation for the switch was import tax rules in China. Apparently the import(excise) tax is much lower for cars with 3.0 and lower displacement. In fact, I think the 6cyl cayenne sold in China has a different engine than ROW 6cyl cayenne, one with a 3.0L displacement. I guess they sell lots of Pannys there so makes sense to get a more competitive price point with lower taxes. Don't know any of this for a fact, but read it in one of the "first drive" reviews of the new Panamera.

I could see them offering a market specific engine. Happens all the time. Doesn't necessarily mean they will stop the V8 for another market.

yes Ive heard this also. CHina as well as other countries impose taxes based on engine size and considering that Panny is the best selling model in China it makes sense.

So, to recap the '14 Panny engines will be:
Base 3.6L V6 310hp +10
S 3.0LT V6 420hp +20
GTS 4.8 V8 440hp +10
TT 4.8T V8 520hp +20



Is the Cayenne next?