Urgent: Coolany leak; what are signs of engine damage?
06-06-2013, 10:19 AM
#1
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Urgent: Coolany leak; what are signs of engine damage?
Hi guys,
It is unfortunate to introduce myself to the forum by saying that the 955 Cayenne 3.2 I picked up today developed a massive coolant leak whilst being driven home.
When the low coolant light came on I monitored the coolant temperature, turned the air conditioning off, and drove very slowly for roughly 1.9 miles. When the temperature needle nearly reached the red line I stopped the engine to let it cool for a couple of minutes before starting again.
On a side note, during these 1.9 miles I can hear a gurgling sound coupled with very slight pedal vibration several times as I feather the throttle. There was no white smoke at the end of the journey and the dipstick did not show signs of coolant contamination.
My questions is: Is it almost certain that the engine has been damaged?
The car has had a water thermostat housing replaced and a coolant-leak check by the OPC three days ago.
It is unfortunate to introduce myself to the forum by saying that the 955 Cayenne 3.2 I picked up today developed a massive coolant leak whilst being driven home.
When the low coolant light came on I monitored the coolant temperature, turned the air conditioning off, and drove very slowly for roughly 1.9 miles. When the temperature needle nearly reached the red line I stopped the engine to let it cool for a couple of minutes before starting again.
On a side note, during these 1.9 miles I can hear a gurgling sound coupled with very slight pedal vibration several times as I feather the throttle. There was no white smoke at the end of the journey and the dipstick did not show signs of coolant contamination.
My questions is: Is it almost certain that the engine has been damaged?
The car has had a water thermostat housing replaced and a coolant-leak check by the OPC three days ago.
06-06-2013, 10:41 AM
#2
Drifting
Gurgling sounds like boiling. Also these systems are pressurized if I recall correctly. So I would measure your coolant/antifreeze ratio to water. You can pick up a cheap tester at auto zone or something first and make sure someone didnt just top off or fill with mostly water. Not sure were you are or your climate.
Other thing I would check is to make sure your expansion tank is not leaking.
If you didn't drive it up to and on or past the red line, you are probably OK. Even though most of the time the cars warm up and stay at a certain mark, in extreme conditions the needle moves (100+ F weather, stop and go traffic, I have seen the gauges creep up a bit on the V8s anyways) Also assuming your massive coolant leak was an exaggeration, if you had no coolant in the car, then....
Anyways, on other cars, not the Cayenne's I have seen a leaking expansion tank cause your problem. I do think others may have reported leaking expansion tanks in the past.
How many miles do you have, and 2nd question, why didn't you bring the car back to were you purchased it (sounds like you just got it and and started driving)
Other thing I would check is to make sure your expansion tank is not leaking.
If you didn't drive it up to and on or past the red line, you are probably OK. Even though most of the time the cars warm up and stay at a certain mark, in extreme conditions the needle moves (100+ F weather, stop and go traffic, I have seen the gauges creep up a bit on the V8s anyways) Also assuming your massive coolant leak was an exaggeration, if you had no coolant in the car, then....
Anyways, on other cars, not the Cayenne's I have seen a leaking expansion tank cause your problem. I do think others may have reported leaking expansion tanks in the past.
How many miles do you have, and 2nd question, why didn't you bring the car back to were you purchased it (sounds like you just got it and and started driving)
06-06-2013, 10:54 AM
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Hello and thank you for a fast response.
When I stopped the car half-way through the 1.9 miles the coolant leak was visible below the engine - it was leaking heavily.
The car is now parked at my house and I can no longer see the coolant leaking beneath the engine, perhaps there is no coolant left?
The car has done 86,000 miles and I bought it privately, and the sale contract states that the seller cannot be held liable if anything happens to the car once I have driven it out.
When I stopped the car half-way through the 1.9 miles the coolant leak was visible below the engine - it was leaking heavily.
The car is now parked at my house and I can no longer see the coolant leaking beneath the engine, perhaps there is no coolant left?
The car has done 86,000 miles and I bought it privately, and the sale contract states that the seller cannot be held liable if anything happens to the car once I have driven it out.
06-06-2013, 12:12 PM
#5
Drifting
Not sure about your country, but maybe even with an agreement, you may have some recourse?
This sounds super shady to me that 10 min or whatever later the car has a major problem.
Not sure if this applies to you.
http://www.thailawforum.com/database...cting-law.html
Not that any of the below will help you, but maybe you have similar laws?
Here in my state, the law applies to used cars, vans, trucks and demonstration vehicles not covered by the New Car Lemon Law, and which:
Are sold by a Massachusetts dealer or private party,
cost at least $700 (dealer sales only),
have fewer than 125,000 miles on the odometer when sold (dealer sales only).
The Used Vehicle Warranty Law requires private party sellers to inform buyers about any and all known defects which impair the safety or substantially impair the use of the vehicle. The law applies to all private party sales regardless of sales price or mileage. If you discover a defect that impairs the vehicle's safety or substantially impairs the use, and can prove that the seller knew about the defect but failed to disclose it, you may cancel the sale within thirty days of purchase. The seller must refund the amount you paid for the vehicle, less 15 cents per mile of use.
Typically the person has to repair or refund the purchase price of the car.
Private parties are also bound by the Lemon Aid Law.
I would find a lawyer in your country that can speak to you for a free consultation if you have any lemon laws in your country.
This sounds super shady to me that 10 min or whatever later the car has a major problem.
Not sure if this applies to you.
http://www.thailawforum.com/database...cting-law.html
Not that any of the below will help you, but maybe you have similar laws?
Here in my state, the law applies to used cars, vans, trucks and demonstration vehicles not covered by the New Car Lemon Law, and which:
Are sold by a Massachusetts dealer or private party,
cost at least $700 (dealer sales only),
have fewer than 125,000 miles on the odometer when sold (dealer sales only).
The Used Vehicle Warranty Law requires private party sellers to inform buyers about any and all known defects which impair the safety or substantially impair the use of the vehicle. The law applies to all private party sales regardless of sales price or mileage. If you discover a defect that impairs the vehicle's safety or substantially impairs the use, and can prove that the seller knew about the defect but failed to disclose it, you may cancel the sale within thirty days of purchase. The seller must refund the amount you paid for the vehicle, less 15 cents per mile of use.
Typically the person has to repair or refund the purchase price of the car.
Private parties are also bound by the Lemon Aid Law.
I would find a lawyer in your country that can speak to you for a free consultation if you have any lemon laws in your country.
06-06-2013, 12:16 PM
#6
Drifting
Hello and thank you for a fast response.
When I stopped the car half-way through the 1.9 miles the coolant leak was visible below the engine - it was leaking heavily.
The car is now parked at my house and I can no longer see the coolant leaking beneath the engine, perhaps there is no coolant left?
The car has done 86,000 miles and I bought it privately, and the sale contract states that the seller cannot be held liable if anything happens to the car once I have driven it out.
When I stopped the car half-way through the 1.9 miles the coolant leak was visible below the engine - it was leaking heavily.
The car is now parked at my house and I can no longer see the coolant leaking beneath the engine, perhaps there is no coolant left?
The car has done 86,000 miles and I bought it privately, and the sale contract states that the seller cannot be held liable if anything happens to the car once I have driven it out.
I would refill the system again (even though it will leak)
If you have no way to pressure test, You can try starting the engine again and run for less than a minute and see if you can spot the leak at this point.
http://images.thecarconnection.com/l...00292756_l.jpg
On the left of this picture is the place to add coolant, you can trace hoses too. However you need to find the leak, could be the water pump, could be they forgot a gasket when changing the thermostat, etc.
Take a look at this thread.
https://rennlist.com/forums/porsche-...ant-pipes.html
06-06-2013, 12:16 PM
#7
Don't START it, much less drive it, if at all possible would be my suggestion. Push it and flat bed it to a shop or do the work yourself. ( I would do the work myself... and have had the intake manifold off three times now on my Ctt ).
Have a Porsche shop take the intake manifold off right NOW and suck that coolant out of the valley of the V8. If the hesitation on the throttle is combined with a rough idle, or a no idle, that could be a cylinder inhaling some of the coolant that is now flooding the valley of the V8 through a weak intake manifold gasket seal. The intake manifold gaskets are soft and rather delicate rubber. ( There are two of them... one on each cylinder bank ).
Again, if at all possible, take the intake manifold off ASAP and get the coolant cleaned up while you wait for replacement coolant pipes for arrive. If you have the time, the simple tools, and the instructions (available from Porsche online) it is not difficult technically... just physically tough.
Have a Porsche shop take the intake manifold off right NOW and suck that coolant out of the valley of the V8. If the hesitation on the throttle is combined with a rough idle, or a no idle, that could be a cylinder inhaling some of the coolant that is now flooding the valley of the V8 through a weak intake manifold gasket seal. The intake manifold gaskets are soft and rather delicate rubber. ( There are two of them... one on each cylinder bank ).
Again, if at all possible, take the intake manifold off ASAP and get the coolant cleaned up while you wait for replacement coolant pipes for arrive. If you have the time, the simple tools, and the instructions (available from Porsche online) it is not difficult technically... just physically tough.
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06-06-2013, 12:23 PM
#8
Drifting
He has a 3.2, so I think this is the V6 and hopefully less problems than our V8s when it comes to post damage after a leak, pretty sure the coolant pipes don't run across the engine 
Either way you should hose off the engine (low pressure and avoid electronics when possible) and get all the coolant cleaned out.
Either way you should hose off the engine (low pressure and avoid electronics when possible) and get all the coolant cleaned out.
Don't START it, much less drive it, if at all possible would be my suggestion. Push it and flat bed it to a shop or do the work yourself. ( I would do the work myself... and have had the intake manifold off three times now on my Ctt ).
Have a Porsche shop take the intake manifold off right NOW and suck that coolant out of the valley of the V8. If the hesitation on the throttle is combined with a rough idle, or a no idle, that could be a cylinder inhaling some of the coolant that is now flooding the valley of the V8 through a weak intake manifold gasket seal. The intake manifold gaskets are soft and rather delicate rubber. ( There are two of them... one on each cylinder bank ).
Again, if at all possible, take the intake manifold off ASAP and get the coolant cleaned up while you wait for replacement coolant pipes for arrive. If you have the time, the simple tools, and the instructions (available from Porsche online) it is not difficult technically... just physically tough.
Have a Porsche shop take the intake manifold off right NOW and suck that coolant out of the valley of the V8. If the hesitation on the throttle is combined with a rough idle, or a no idle, that could be a cylinder inhaling some of the coolant that is now flooding the valley of the V8 through a weak intake manifold gasket seal. The intake manifold gaskets are soft and rather delicate rubber. ( There are two of them... one on each cylinder bank ).
Again, if at all possible, take the intake manifold off ASAP and get the coolant cleaned up while you wait for replacement coolant pipes for arrive. If you have the time, the simple tools, and the instructions (available from Porsche online) it is not difficult technically... just physically tough.
06-06-2013, 12:35 PM
#9
He has a 3.2, so I think this is the V6 and hopefully less problems than our V8s when it comes to post damage after a leak, pretty sure the coolant pipes don't run across the engine
Either way you should hose off the engine (low pressure and avoid electronics when possible) and get all the coolant cleaned out.
Either way you should hose off the engine (low pressure and avoid electronics when possible) and get all the coolant cleaned out.
I think I'm beginning to realize that the shadows on the cave wall are not reality....
06-06-2013, 12:52 PM
#10
Drifting
Are you sure it's leaking, and didn't just boil over out of the reservoir? It's not uncommon for water pump failure on the 3.2, which can cause overheating. I would definitely pressure test the system as a good first step in diagnosis.
06-06-2013, 01:22 PM
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Guys, thank you very much for being very helpful.
I can confirm that the Cayenne has a V6 3.2.
I am at this stage trying to get over the initial shock of my first day with the Cayenne.
touareg, I will definitely read into my country's law, but I am reluctant to put the blame on the seller because it was my decision to give the Cayenne to Porsche Center Bangkok for a thorough check prior to taking delivery.
Johny, the car will be towed to the OPC tomorrow morning, and I will make sure that nobody starts the car.
Tim, the coolant was pouring out heavily from the engine even when the engine was shut off.
If the engine did get damage, do you guys think it is possible for me to get the Porsche center to cover the costs?
P.S. The Porsche Approved Pre-Owned warranty had expired on the 16th last month.
I can confirm that the Cayenne has a V6 3.2.
I am at this stage trying to get over the initial shock of my first day with the Cayenne.
touareg, I will definitely read into my country's law, but I am reluctant to put the blame on the seller because it was my decision to give the Cayenne to Porsche Center Bangkok for a thorough check prior to taking delivery.
Johny, the car will be towed to the OPC tomorrow morning, and I will make sure that nobody starts the car.
Tim, the coolant was pouring out heavily from the engine even when the engine was shut off.
If the engine did get damage, do you guys think it is possible for me to get the Porsche center to cover the costs?
P.S. The Porsche Approved Pre-Owned warranty had expired on the 16th last month.
06-06-2013, 03:27 PM
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Another vital piece of information: the oil temperature remained normal, only rising towards 1pm at the end of the 19-mile journey.
06-07-2013, 02:59 AM
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An update:
The car was towed to Porsche center this morning and upon inspection I was told by a mechanic that a plastic connector which sits between the coolant pipe and the radiator had snapped.
I argued that the car was collected from the OPC just three days ago, and that it went in for a cooling system check.
It seems like the entire coolant radiator has to be replaced.
The car was towed to Porsche center this morning and upon inspection I was told by a mechanic that a plastic connector which sits between the coolant pipe and the radiator had snapped.
I argued that the car was collected from the OPC just three days ago, and that it went in for a cooling system check.
It seems like the entire coolant radiator has to be replaced.
06-07-2013, 10:44 AM
#14
Drifting
Good luck! If the Dealer did the work for the OPC, perhaps something was damaged when the thermostat was replaced. Either way, I find that to be nice, calm and even call the Porsche regional office (For us it is PCNA) may help, if the car just went out of warranty, they may pay for labor, and you pay parts, etc.
06-07-2013, 11:39 AM
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Thank you.
My fingers are well crossed.
It was this very Porsche center that did the work on the cooling system.
The mechanic at the Porsche center stated that because the thermostat housing he replaced was located in a position different to that of this plastic tube, he cannot be held liable for the cost of replacing the coolant radiator.
I quickly replied that there must have been a possibility that the plastic tube got damaged when the car went in for a cooling system check, coolant vacuum, and a coolant thermostat housing replacement.
At the end of the day the Porsche center has decided to waive the cost of new coolant fluid and partially pay the inevitable cost of labor, but I will still have to pay for the new radiator.
Do you think for my circumstances I should be asking them to waive everything?
P.S. Porsche does not have a regional office here in Thailand, and there is only one official Porsche center.
My fingers are well crossed.
It was this very Porsche center that did the work on the cooling system.
The mechanic at the Porsche center stated that because the thermostat housing he replaced was located in a position different to that of this plastic tube, he cannot be held liable for the cost of replacing the coolant radiator.
I quickly replied that there must have been a possibility that the plastic tube got damaged when the car went in for a cooling system check, coolant vacuum, and a coolant thermostat housing replacement.
At the end of the day the Porsche center has decided to waive the cost of new coolant fluid and partially pay the inevitable cost of labor, but I will still have to pay for the new radiator.
Do you think for my circumstances I should be asking them to waive everything?
P.S. Porsche does not have a regional office here in Thailand, and there is only one official Porsche center.