Let the flames begin...
04-01-2003, 12:52 AM
#16
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Jack,
I happen to like 928's quite alot so I think you are a bit off with your remarks. I also think the Cayenne is a fine piece of engineering. Perhaps, a bit too fine for most buyers.
My point is simply that Porsche could have delivered a lower priced, lighter, higher performance SUV that could have truly "wowed" the auto journalists if they had focused more on asphalt capabilities than dirt.
Ultimately, consumers will vote with their wallets. I sincerely doubt a few critics are going to sway public opinion.
MC
I happen to like 928's quite alot so I think you are a bit off with your remarks. I also think the Cayenne is a fine piece of engineering. Perhaps, a bit too fine for most buyers.
My point is simply that Porsche could have delivered a lower priced, lighter, higher performance SUV that could have truly "wowed" the auto journalists if they had focused more on asphalt capabilities than dirt.
Ultimately, consumers will vote with their wallets. I sincerely doubt a few critics are going to sway public opinion.
MC
04-01-2003, 06:03 AM
#17
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Adrian:
<strong>Gentlemen,
This is the Cayenne forum not 911 versus 928. Please count to ten and if you have nothing constructive to say, say nothing.
I also think is it quite valuable to see the comparisons between RR, Merc, BMW SUVs etc but do not let us descend into marque slanging matches please.
Ciao,
Adrian with moderators hat on
911C4</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Adrian, your moderator role notwithstanding, I resemble your remark that my post on this thread was "nothing constructive" and furthermore, from other posts, I think there's some camaraderie (sp?) to be found between our "fore father" V8 Porsche owners and "the new cash cow" Cayenne owners. So some lively debate and "cross pollination" between 928 and 955 (yeah, that's the Cayenne model designation) is something to encourage.
By the way, Mr Adrian Moderator, if there's one thing wrong with this thread, it's your itchy trigger finger -- look at the date stamps -- my reply to the post from "Jack '84 928s" was 19hrs later. Your reply was about 7hrs after my post, at which time Jack had not responded and as of this post, two days later, Jack still hasn't posted anything (and good show) so there's nothing here to warrant a moderator's intervention.
Of course, we all appreciate your tireless, thankless, and I expect unpaid efforts to keep the peace on these wild forums where it's important to maintain a PG rating.
<strong>Gentlemen,
This is the Cayenne forum not 911 versus 928. Please count to ten and if you have nothing constructive to say, say nothing.
I also think is it quite valuable to see the comparisons between RR, Merc, BMW SUVs etc but do not let us descend into marque slanging matches please.
Ciao,
Adrian with moderators hat on
911C4</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Adrian, your moderator role notwithstanding, I resemble your remark that my post on this thread was "nothing constructive" and furthermore, from other posts, I think there's some camaraderie (sp?) to be found between our "fore father" V8 Porsche owners and "the new cash cow" Cayenne owners. So some lively debate and "cross pollination" between 928 and 955 (yeah, that's the Cayenne model designation) is something to encourage.
By the way, Mr Adrian Moderator, if there's one thing wrong with this thread, it's your itchy trigger finger -- look at the date stamps -- my reply to the post from "Jack '84 928s" was 19hrs later. Your reply was about 7hrs after my post, at which time Jack had not responded and as of this post, two days later, Jack still hasn't posted anything (and good show) so there's nothing here to warrant a moderator's intervention.
Of course, we all appreciate your tireless, thankless, and I expect unpaid efforts to keep the peace on these wild forums where it's important to maintain a PG rating.
04-01-2003, 09:32 AM
#18
Carrera GT I think I feel somewhat the same way.
They started with a clean sheet of paper and could have made a truly compelling vehicle (a Porsche!). But what I saw was just plain butt ugly and, in IMO, a very poor value compared to the current SUV crop. (I can't get over the lack of a spare- it is an SUV, right? -and the outrageous price they want for one optionally- someone oughta be fired over that one.)
Let's wait and see what the 997 is like... I don't think we'll be disappointed then.
They started with a clean sheet of paper and could have made a truly compelling vehicle (a Porsche!). But what I saw was just plain butt ugly and, in IMO, a very poor value compared to the current SUV crop. (I can't get over the lack of a spare- it is an SUV, right? -and the outrageous price they want for one optionally- someone oughta be fired over that one.)
Let's wait and see what the 997 is like... I don't think we'll be disappointed then.
04-01-2003, 01:58 PM
#19
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There is another Sahara conquering AWD Porsche...
If I remember correctly it has adjustable ride height / adjustable supsension / locking differentials / 6 different traction control modes / and the most spohisticated AWD system ever put on a car to this very day -- using no less than 6 clutches. It had about 450 HP. And I think it did the zero to sixty in about 3.8 seconds.
Not bad for an '88.
If I remember correctly it has adjustable ride height / adjustable supsension / locking differentials / 6 different traction control modes / and the most spohisticated AWD system ever put on a car to this very day -- using no less than 6 clutches. It had about 450 HP. And I think it did the zero to sixty in about 3.8 seconds.
Not bad for an '88.
04-01-2003, 02:04 PM
#20
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Dear Carrera GT,
Your comments,
"Of course, we all appreciate your tireless, thankless, and I expect unpaid efforts to keep the peace on these wild forums where it's important to maintain a PG rating".
Very constructive.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
Your comments,
"Of course, we all appreciate your tireless, thankless, and I expect unpaid efforts to keep the peace on these wild forums where it's important to maintain a PG rating".
Very constructive.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
04-22-2003, 10:42 PM
#22
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Sorry folks, the Cayenne is born more from the desire to chase the existing "crossover" segment rather than create a new one, something that the original 911 set out to do long ago. The marque doesn't deserve this type of compromise. If you want a Porsche buy a 911/993/996. To me, the whole crossover thing is just marketing fluff designed to make mini vans appear macho.
If you go off road often, then buy a truck dedicated to the task. I had a Defender 90-it was an awesome off road vehicle that truly went off road-I'm talking mud flyin' over the roof off road. Will a majority out there take their Porsche out to romp in the mud? I doubt it-so why buy into it? I'm sorry if I offend-I just don't get it...
If you go off road often, then buy a truck dedicated to the task. I had a Defender 90-it was an awesome off road vehicle that truly went off road-I'm talking mud flyin' over the roof off road. Will a majority out there take their Porsche out to romp in the mud? I doubt it-so why buy into it? I'm sorry if I offend-I just don't get it...
04-23-2003, 02:40 AM
#23
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CarreraGT
I couldn't resist, you wrote:
Regardless of "911 people" whom (more correctly) may despise anything they choose to despise, I wonder what it is you can have instead of your Civic?
The use of whom is actually incorrect in that sentence; you should have used who.
I couldn't resist, you wrote:
Regardless of "911 people" whom (more correctly) may despise anything they choose to despise, I wonder what it is you can have instead of your Civic?
The use of whom is actually incorrect in that sentence; you should have used who.
04-23-2003, 05:37 PM
#24
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Franklin229,
No offense taken (on my part anyway). It is interesting to watch the (sometimes) animated discussions that take place when new Porsche models appear. I suspect that the same sorts of threads and discourse would have occurred back when the 924/944/968/928/986 all came onto center stage. That being said, as an owner of a 79 930 and an 04 955, it's quite fun to be able to scare the dickens out of myself driving my 930 and then park it and drive off in my Cayenne and still be able to enjoy a good deal of performance and handling from an SUV. Did it cost more than the 03 ML I traded in, yes. Was it worth the additional cost? Again, IMHO, it was.
I believe that there are compelling arguments to be made that diversifying into different lines BEYOND the traditional high-performance sports car market was a proper move. Looking back on Porsche A.G.'s financial history, the early 90's would have scared the most ardent believer. I'm glad that Porshe has built on the traditions established by the 959 and carried forward into the 911, 993 and 996. I think the 955 will provide the cash flow necessary to augment the 996 cash flow and allow Porsche to build newer, more compelling vehicles like the new GT3 or the 997. Forme, this is what I so love about my favorite marque..... they apply previously learned lessons across the board.
TBP
No offense taken (on my part anyway). It is interesting to watch the (sometimes) animated discussions that take place when new Porsche models appear. I suspect that the same sorts of threads and discourse would have occurred back when the 924/944/968/928/986 all came onto center stage. That being said, as an owner of a 79 930 and an 04 955, it's quite fun to be able to scare the dickens out of myself driving my 930 and then park it and drive off in my Cayenne and still be able to enjoy a good deal of performance and handling from an SUV. Did it cost more than the 03 ML I traded in, yes. Was it worth the additional cost? Again, IMHO, it was.
I believe that there are compelling arguments to be made that diversifying into different lines BEYOND the traditional high-performance sports car market was a proper move. Looking back on Porsche A.G.'s financial history, the early 90's would have scared the most ardent believer. I'm glad that Porshe has built on the traditions established by the 959 and carried forward into the 911, 993 and 996. I think the 955 will provide the cash flow necessary to augment the 996 cash flow and allow Porsche to build newer, more compelling vehicles like the new GT3 or the 997. Forme, this is what I so love about my favorite marque..... they apply previously learned lessons across the board.
TBP
04-24-2003, 10:34 AM
#25
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Toby,
I agree with the need to diversify-you are spot on. I am glad that you are enjoying your purchase and agree that healthy sales from the Cayenne will fuel Porsche's more core business segments.
My issues are derived more from my own baggage regarding the "crossover" format. Porsche has traditionally offered vehicles that fulfill mostly functional (performance-proven) design parameters. As stated before, the Cayenne represents a vehicle born to fulfill marketing-driven parameters, which is the case for most crossover vehicles. They are not the best 4X4 nor the best sports car, yet they are positioned to suggest that they have conquered both tasks.
This is where my own issue lies. Not everyone's POV, I realize-
I agree with the need to diversify-you are spot on. I am glad that you are enjoying your purchase and agree that healthy sales from the Cayenne will fuel Porsche's more core business segments.
My issues are derived more from my own baggage regarding the "crossover" format. Porsche has traditionally offered vehicles that fulfill mostly functional (performance-proven) design parameters. As stated before, the Cayenne represents a vehicle born to fulfill marketing-driven parameters, which is the case for most crossover vehicles. They are not the best 4X4 nor the best sports car, yet they are positioned to suggest that they have conquered both tasks.
This is where my own issue lies. Not everyone's POV, I realize-
04-24-2003, 03:59 PM
#26
Question for all you guys (and girls):
Why is it so important for Porsche to be independent? While I wouldn't want to see them purchased by Ford (and God help us GM) a bit of Audi management might be beneficial.
It seems to me Ferrari has done some of the more remarkable things in its history since Fiat took over. More than a few F1 championships, some of the prettiest and best performing cars they've ever produced etc.
Am I the only one thinks independence isn't all its cracked up to be?
Why is it so important for Porsche to be independent? While I wouldn't want to see them purchased by Ford (and God help us GM) a bit of Audi management might be beneficial.
It seems to me Ferrari has done some of the more remarkable things in its history since Fiat took over. More than a few F1 championships, some of the prettiest and best performing cars they've ever produced etc.
Am I the only one thinks independence isn't all its cracked up to be?
04-24-2003, 04:26 PM
#27
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by George from MD:
<strong>
Am I the only one thinks independence isn't all its cracked up to be?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Based on similar discussion on the Boxster Board, I can say you're not.
Of course, I have a differing opinion.
Once a company is no longer independent, there's no telling who would buy them . . . when Porsche looked like they were going under in the early 90s, GM was rumoured to have had interest.
But my real objection to Porsche being acquired by someone else is based on my belief that such an acquisition would probably result in much more expensive Porsche cars, thereby pricing me out of the marque.
Example: Let's say Volkswagen AG (Audi's parent) bought Porshce. Audi is already established as the sort of mass-market "sporty" marque, and they have Lamborghini to represent the exotica. It seems to me that there would be no reason whatever to sell a mass-market Porsche (i.e., Boxster), and no reason whatever to price a 911 within reason, inasmuch as there's plenty of market space between a Porsche and Lamborghini.
Further, I think it's probably axiomatic that there'd be cross-platforms. Maybe not such a big deal for the Cayenne, but do you want to see a mid-engined Porsche sports car share a platform with an Audi? (as will happen with the new Lambo Gallardo) Is the new BMW-powered Rolls Phantom really a Rolls, or is it a BMW? Speaking of BMW, I read where they were considering a new model, but didn't know if it would be a Mini or a 1-series. If that's the case, is it either?
And whatever the merits of Ferrari's acquistion (soon to be undone, btw) by Fiat, I'd suggest that it's the exception rather than the rule. Look at Ford's acquistion of Jaguar and Aston. They're making great cars, but I don't think there's a question that the cross-pollination has affected the character of each. (As my friend put it, "Ford sure makes a nice Jaguar.")
Just my very HO.
<strong>
Am I the only one thinks independence isn't all its cracked up to be?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Based on similar discussion on the Boxster Board, I can say you're not.
Of course, I have a differing opinion.
Once a company is no longer independent, there's no telling who would buy them . . . when Porsche looked like they were going under in the early 90s, GM was rumoured to have had interest.
But my real objection to Porsche being acquired by someone else is based on my belief that such an acquisition would probably result in much more expensive Porsche cars, thereby pricing me out of the marque.
Example: Let's say Volkswagen AG (Audi's parent) bought Porshce. Audi is already established as the sort of mass-market "sporty" marque, and they have Lamborghini to represent the exotica. It seems to me that there would be no reason whatever to sell a mass-market Porsche (i.e., Boxster), and no reason whatever to price a 911 within reason, inasmuch as there's plenty of market space between a Porsche and Lamborghini.
Further, I think it's probably axiomatic that there'd be cross-platforms. Maybe not such a big deal for the Cayenne, but do you want to see a mid-engined Porsche sports car share a platform with an Audi? (as will happen with the new Lambo Gallardo) Is the new BMW-powered Rolls Phantom really a Rolls, or is it a BMW? Speaking of BMW, I read where they were considering a new model, but didn't know if it would be a Mini or a 1-series. If that's the case, is it either?
And whatever the merits of Ferrari's acquistion (soon to be undone, btw) by Fiat, I'd suggest that it's the exception rather than the rule. Look at Ford's acquistion of Jaguar and Aston. They're making great cars, but I don't think there's a question that the cross-pollination has affected the character of each. (As my friend put it, "Ford sure makes a nice Jaguar.")
Just my very HO.
04-24-2003, 04:29 PM
#28
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Independence of thought..... producing innovative design and engineering - rather than corporate solutions agreed behind a desk hundreds, perhaps thousands of miles away.... Before long everything is coming out of the same parts bin - the ideas too....
As for Ferrari - The Old Man only saw the cars as a means to race - After selling to Fiat, Agnelli through Montezemolo have arguably produced better cars than Enzo ever cared to. Now that Agnelli has passed away too - Ferrari really is controlled by a distant board of bankers...... The future is very uncertain. Think of the last 30 years as ownership by a benevolent dictator and the most loyal of henchman.
The Ferrari mystique will remain for many years, but for many of us it started fading the day that Enzo died.
As for Ferrari - The Old Man only saw the cars as a means to race - After selling to Fiat, Agnelli through Montezemolo have arguably produced better cars than Enzo ever cared to. Now that Agnelli has passed away too - Ferrari really is controlled by a distant board of bankers...... The future is very uncertain. Think of the last 30 years as ownership by a benevolent dictator and the most loyal of henchman.
The Ferrari mystique will remain for many years, but for many of us it started fading the day that Enzo died.
04-29-2003, 09:41 AM
#29
Hey Anir!
Remember the reviews of the M3?
Hate to say it but if I bought a Cayenne, I would feel the same way I did when I bought my M3, maybe worse as the M3 is beautifully styled with much better fit and finish than a Cayenne.
I finally sold the dreaded M3...God did I hate that thing...
I have driven the Cayenne extensively and am shocked there are not more complaints about the sloppy transmission and occasional 'lag', similar to my dearly departed Allroad.
Remember the reviews of the M3?
Hate to say it but if I bought a Cayenne, I would feel the same way I did when I bought my M3, maybe worse as the M3 is beautifully styled with much better fit and finish than a Cayenne.
I finally sold the dreaded M3...God did I hate that thing...
I have driven the Cayenne extensively and am shocked there are not more complaints about the sloppy transmission and occasional 'lag', similar to my dearly departed Allroad.
04-29-2003, 10:30 AM
#30
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controlit, can't say I agree with your comments. I find my Cayenne to have much better fit and finish than my '01 M5 (which was finished comparably if not better than any M3 I'd ever seen). But then I never understood the attraction of the M3. If you can live with a two-door there are ones that are so much more appealing to drive (e.g. 996 C2).
As for a sloppy transmission, having put 2,500 miles on our Cayenne and having just come back from a 380 mile (each way) trip, I have no such complaints. Perhaps it is your expectations that are out of line with the realities of automatic transmissions. There's a reason they don't immediately downshift every time you open the throttle. The steering wheel tiptronic controls on the Cayenne provide on-demand downshifting that's quite responsive. I also found the Cayenne to be much more stable and generally confidence inspiring at high speed than my M5 was on its best day.
As for a sloppy transmission, having put 2,500 miles on our Cayenne and having just come back from a 380 mile (each way) trip, I have no such complaints. Perhaps it is your expectations that are out of line with the realities of automatic transmissions. There's a reason they don't immediately downshift every time you open the throttle. The steering wheel tiptronic controls on the Cayenne provide on-demand downshifting that's quite responsive. I also found the Cayenne to be much more stable and generally confidence inspiring at high speed than my M5 was on its best day.