Japanese trans in the Cayenne?
01-24-2003, 04:12 PM
#17
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I see it like this:
If I buy a German car, I want German parts, especially the engine, tranny and suspension. If I wanted something that was bullet proof reliable, I would be buying a Japanese car. If it is cheap and reliable you are after, the Cayenne is a waste of money.
Personally, I I am paying that much for a "German" car, it better have all of its critical parts made in Germany. I guess it doesn't matter, because the Japanese methods of manufacture (read quick and lots of them) have infiltrated the Porsche assembly lines. My 81 928 still feels like a Porsche should feel, solid with excellent build quality. I can't say the same any time I sit in a new Boxster or 996...
Just my opinion...
If I buy a German car, I want German parts, especially the engine, tranny and suspension. If I wanted something that was bullet proof reliable, I would be buying a Japanese car. If it is cheap and reliable you are after, the Cayenne is a waste of money.
Personally, I I am paying that much for a "German" car, it better have all of its critical parts made in Germany. I guess it doesn't matter, because the Japanese methods of manufacture (read quick and lots of them) have infiltrated the Porsche assembly lines. My 81 928 still feels like a Porsche should feel, solid with excellent build quality. I can't say the same any time I sit in a new Boxster or 996...
Just my opinion...
01-24-2003, 05:47 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
I think it is entirely appropriate for people to express their views, pro and con, on these forums. One should not have to be a Cayenne buyer or prospective buyer to express his/her opinion.
So . . .
The Cayenne is assembled by Porsche in Germany, but as mentioned in other posts, much of it is NOT manufactured by Porsche -- a trans (major component) from Japan and a lot of Volkswagen content. This would factor heavily into my purchase decision if I were in the market for an SUV, and it will be a factor if the same trend spreads into their sports cars (I can't believe I now have to specify "sports cars" when discussing production Porsches
). It's not just '70s 911 owners who feel this way. I wish I wanted to buy a new Porsche. I looked at a new 996 last week. It's nice, but my 993 is better from a fit and finish quality standpoint by a large margin, and I still find it more satisfying to drive. It matters to me that my car can be run on a track without worrying about the engine letting go -- that the 996 GT3 and Turbos use a different (based on the 993!!) engine than other 996s is VERY telling. According to EVO magazine, Porsche is considering voiding the warranty on any of its new cars that have been used in DE events 
. Never heard that with the older cars . . .
Porsche to me is about much more than just efficiency. The manufacturing and design process utilized for the Cayenne surely allows them to sell (at least the S) for less than if they were Porsches in design and manufacture, but much of the Porscheness character is inevitably lost, IMHO.
BTW, I read that the trans is Japanese because no other company could provide one quickly enough. "You can have a Model T in any color as long as it's black" was because black paint was the only paint that could dry quickly enough for the assembly line . . . Marketing is clearly important, and the Japanese trans may be a great unit, but it furthers my impression that Porsche used to be an engineering company first and foremost, but marketing has now taken over.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
<img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" />
So . . .
The Cayenne is assembled by Porsche in Germany, but as mentioned in other posts, much of it is NOT manufactured by Porsche -- a trans (major component) from Japan and a lot of Volkswagen content. This would factor heavily into my purchase decision if I were in the market for an SUV, and it will be a factor if the same trend spreads into their sports cars (I can't believe I now have to specify "sports cars" when discussing production Porsches
). It's not just '70s 911 owners who feel this way. I wish I wanted to buy a new Porsche. I looked at a new 996 last week. It's nice, but my 993 is better from a fit and finish quality standpoint by a large margin, and I still find it more satisfying to drive. It matters to me that my car can be run on a track without worrying about the engine letting go -- that the 996 GT3 and Turbos use a different (based on the 993!!) engine than other 996s is VERY telling. According to EVO magazine, Porsche is considering voiding the warranty on any of its new cars that have been used in DE events . Never heard that with the older cars . . .Porsche to me is about much more than just efficiency. The manufacturing and design process utilized for the Cayenne surely allows them to sell (at least the S) for less than if they were Porsches in design and manufacture, but much of the Porscheness character is inevitably lost, IMHO.
BTW, I read that the trans is Japanese because no other company could provide one quickly enough. "You can have a Model T in any color as long as it's black" was because black paint was the only paint that could dry quickly enough for the assembly line . . . Marketing is clearly important, and the Japanese trans may be a great unit, but it furthers my impression that Porsche used to be an engineering company first and foremost, but marketing has now taken over.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
<img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" />
01-24-2003, 06:10 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John from WA:
<strong>Make me!
haha</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
<strong>Make me!
haha</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
01-24-2003, 06:15 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Speedraser:
<strong>I wish I wanted to buy a new Porsche. I looked at a new 996 last week. It's nice, but my 993 is better from a fit and finish quality standpoint by a large margin, and I still find it more satisfying to drive. It matters to me that my car can be run on a track without worrying about the engine letting go -- that the 996 GT3 and Turbos use a different (based on the 993!!) engine than other 996s is VERY telling. According to EVO magazine, Porsche is considering voiding the warranty on any of its new cars that have been used in DE events . Never heard that with the older cars . . .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Very well said. I have not been able to feel passionate about any post-993 offerings from Porsche (except for maybe a GT3). Hopefully, that will change with the 997. I guess being happy with an older Porsche is good for my financial health since I don't feel compelled to "upgrade".
<strong>I wish I wanted to buy a new Porsche. I looked at a new 996 last week. It's nice, but my 993 is better from a fit and finish quality standpoint by a large margin, and I still find it more satisfying to drive. It matters to me that my car can be run on a track without worrying about the engine letting go -- that the 996 GT3 and Turbos use a different (based on the 993!!) engine than other 996s is VERY telling. According to EVO magazine, Porsche is considering voiding the warranty on any of its new cars that have been used in DE events
. Never heard that with the older cars . . .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Very well said. I have not been able to feel passionate about any post-993 offerings from Porsche (except for maybe a GT3). Hopefully, that will change with the 997. I guess being happy with an older Porsche is good for my financial health since I don't feel compelled to "upgrade".
01-25-2003, 03:05 PM
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An interesting idle thought.
Granted, there are design costs to be absorbed over the production run of any vehicle, but, if, as many have pointed out, much of the Cayenne is built from off-the-shelf or outsourced to other manufacturers (body assembly, transmission, etc), how is the asking price of 55k to 88k arrived at? How much of this is pure profit to the assembler (in this case Porsche)? I ask this because of articles that state that even with American car companies, the greatest profit margin is at the high end. In other words, regardless of whether it is a Cayenne, Navigator or whatever, how much is the consumer paying for the badge?
Just wondering...It's the financial planner in me coming out...where is the best bang for the buck?
Granted, there are design costs to be absorbed over the production run of any vehicle, but, if, as many have pointed out, much of the Cayenne is built from off-the-shelf or outsourced to other manufacturers (body assembly, transmission, etc), how is the asking price of 55k to 88k arrived at? How much of this is pure profit to the assembler (in this case Porsche)? I ask this because of articles that state that even with American car companies, the greatest profit margin is at the high end. In other words, regardless of whether it is a Cayenne, Navigator or whatever, how much is the consumer paying for the badge?
Just wondering...It's the financial planner in me coming out...where is the best bang for the buck?
01-25-2003, 03:42 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Bob S. 1984 Silver:
<strong>...if, as many have pointed out, much of the Cayenne is built from off-the-shelf or outsourced to other manufacturers (body assembly, transmission, etc), how is the asking price of 55k to 88k arrived at? How much of this is pure profit to the assembler (in this case Porsche)?
...In other words, regardless of whether it is a Cayenne, Navigator or whatever, how much is the consumer paying for the badge?
...where is the best bang for the buck?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Welcome to the Wonderful World of Wacky Wiedeking, where he willfully whacks well-heeled wage-earners wallets, whilst wanton winners-circle worshipers wonder if we are witnessing Wistful Wiedeking's Waterloo... <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />
<strong>...if, as many have pointed out, much of the Cayenne is built from off-the-shelf or outsourced to other manufacturers (body assembly, transmission, etc), how is the asking price of 55k to 88k arrived at? How much of this is pure profit to the assembler (in this case Porsche)?
...In other words, regardless of whether it is a Cayenne, Navigator or whatever, how much is the consumer paying for the badge?
...where is the best bang for the buck?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Welcome to the Wonderful World of Wacky Wiedeking, where he willfully whacks well-heeled wage-earners wallets, whilst wanton winners-circle worshipers wonder if we are witnessing Wistful Wiedeking's Waterloo... <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />
01-26-2003, 01:54 PM
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Well, are ANY Porsche vehicles "worth" their price tags? Metal for metal, wire for wire, rubber for rubber, you are always paying for the name.
Unless you are racing, how much of the cars "racing" performance is anyone using driving from home to work or any other A-B route you choose?
So when did Porsche sell their smelting plants?
Unless you are racing, how much of the cars "racing" performance is anyone using driving from home to work or any other A-B route you choose?
So when did Porsche sell their smelting plants?
01-27-2003, 01:58 PM
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Personally the thought of purchasing a Porsche with some of its major components outsourced to the far East is analagous to buying what you think is a fine Swiss time piece that turns out to have a cheap(er) Japanese movement inside. To me that would be unacceptable.
Yes, both work, and work well, but the reason you bought the Swiss one in the first place was to get the hand crafted Swiss quality and workmanship that dates back hundreds of years. Perhaps you would buy it for the name, in this case I know of a guy in Tiajuana who sells nice looking Rolex watches which keep great time and can fool even the most critical Rolex freaks out there. If it was the Japanase movement you were after, you would buy the Citizen and not the Tag, saving gobs of money in the process...just an example mind you. This is no different with a car.
Perhaps you bought your car(s) for the brand name...judging from the model(s) you have selected I would say that is a good assumption. Personally, I don't drive it because it says Porsche on the hood. That is meaningless to me. I bought mine because I liked the styling, build quality and the way they drove....oh yes and also the fact that I knew they would last because of where and how they were made.
I have broken a lot of Japanese bolts in my time, and I have watched a lot of Japanese steel rust. In a nutsheel, I see Japanese cars as great but very disposable. I certainly hope this will not be the future for Porsche cars. Those who know the real definition of build quality know exactly what I am talking about. Most Japanese stuff isn't even worth rebuilding, because it is designed to be replaced when it is done. The old German design and build philispohy was much different than the modern Japanese design (if there is such a thing) and build philisophy.
Porsche cars used to be about hand crafted high quality performance, but all that seems to have gone out the window these days just to make more profits.
Nothing coming out of Porsche's factories these days makes me think "I have to have one of those". I hope that will change, but if it doesn't, I'll stick with an older pre-Japanese manufacturing practice laden Porsche or take my money elsewhere.
Yes, both work, and work well, but the reason you bought the Swiss one in the first place was to get the hand crafted Swiss quality and workmanship that dates back hundreds of years. Perhaps you would buy it for the name, in this case I know of a guy in Tiajuana who sells nice looking Rolex watches which keep great time and can fool even the most critical Rolex freaks out there. If it was the Japanase movement you were after, you would buy the Citizen and not the Tag, saving gobs of money in the process...just an example mind you. This is no different with a car.
Perhaps you bought your car(s) for the brand name...judging from the model(s) you have selected I would say that is a good assumption. Personally, I don't drive it because it says Porsche on the hood. That is meaningless to me. I bought mine because I liked the styling, build quality and the way they drove....oh yes and also the fact that I knew they would last because of where and how they were made.
I have broken a lot of Japanese bolts in my time, and I have watched a lot of Japanese steel rust. In a nutsheel, I see Japanese cars as great but very disposable. I certainly hope this will not be the future for Porsche cars. Those who know the real definition of build quality know exactly what I am talking about. Most Japanese stuff isn't even worth rebuilding, because it is designed to be replaced when it is done. The old German design and build philispohy was much different than the modern Japanese design (if there is such a thing) and build philisophy.
Porsche cars used to be about hand crafted high quality performance, but all that seems to have gone out the window these days just to make more profits.
Nothing coming out of Porsche's factories these days makes me think "I have to have one of those". I hope that will change, but if it doesn't, I'll stick with an older pre-Japanese manufacturing practice laden Porsche or take my money elsewhere.
01-27-2003, 06:01 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by dawktah:
<strong>Unless you are racing, how much of the cars "racing" performance is anyone using driving from home to work or any other A-B route you choose?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I'd say that I use the "racing" performance all the time. Granted, the top speed capabilities aren't utilized on the road, but the cornering and accelerating abilities see some use. And, I take it to the track (for DE's) every chance I get.
John, I couldn't agree with you more about Japanese cars. A fellow PCA friend who happens to work at Toyota tells me that the Camry is supposedly designed with a lifespan of 5 years in mind, since research shows that Americans only keep their cars for an average of five years before trading in.
Also, when was the last time you ever saw a Japanese car at auction or being restored (except maybe the occasional Toyota 2000GT or Datsun 240Z)? There's simply no market for Japanese cars - even the high-performance models such as the NSX because they do not stir the soul.
<strong>Unless you are racing, how much of the cars "racing" performance is anyone using driving from home to work or any other A-B route you choose?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I'd say that I use the "racing" performance all the time. Granted, the top speed capabilities aren't utilized on the road, but the cornering and accelerating abilities see some use. And, I take it to the track (for DE's) every chance I get.
John, I couldn't agree with you more about Japanese cars. A fellow PCA friend who happens to work at Toyota tells me that the Camry is supposedly designed with a lifespan of 5 years in mind, since research shows that Americans only keep their cars for an average of five years before trading in.
Also, when was the last time you ever saw a Japanese car at auction or being restored (except maybe the occasional Toyota 2000GT or Datsun 240Z)? There's simply no market for Japanese cars - even the high-performance models such as the NSX because they do not stir the soul.
01-27-2003, 06:03 PM
#27
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by dawktah:
[QB]...Unless you are racing, how much of the cars "racing" performance is anyone using driving from home to work or any other A-B route you choose?...QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I ain't racing with my Porsche but most of my driving is A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B-A (Track events) or spirited back road driving, I commute with bicycle. If Porsche (or at least the Porsche I would buy) didn't have "racing" performance, I'd buy something else.
My kinda Porsche has to be sports car with "racing" performance (or at least, spirit).
For me, an SUV, no matter how much hp you put in it, is not that kind of a car (well, it's not a car in a first place), especially when it's 'taking away' all the "racing" from my beloved company.
There are tons of Porsche owners why hasn't even seen race track, yet driven at one. Who doesn't care about racing, nor driving fast at all.
That's why Porsche has made lots of money, 996 has cup holders, and most of all, Porsche is building this truck.
It's ironic that if there had not been Porsche's racing, "racing" performance in Porsche's car, there would not be this kind of interest in Porsche.
Those same people would not be buying them and Porsche could not ride on the wave it's currently riding.
[QB]...Unless you are racing, how much of the cars "racing" performance is anyone using driving from home to work or any other A-B route you choose?...QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I ain't racing with my Porsche but most of my driving is A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B-A (Track events) or spirited back road driving, I commute with bicycle. If Porsche (or at least the Porsche I would buy) didn't have "racing" performance, I'd buy something else.
My kinda Porsche has to be sports car with "racing" performance (or at least, spirit).
For me, an SUV, no matter how much hp you put in it, is not that kind of a car (well, it's not a car in a first place), especially when it's 'taking away' all the "racing" from my beloved company.
There are tons of Porsche owners why hasn't even seen race track, yet driven at one. Who doesn't care about racing, nor driving fast at all.
That's why Porsche has made lots of money, 996 has cup holders, and most of all, Porsche is building this truck.
It's ironic that if there had not been Porsche's racing, "racing" performance in Porsche's car, there would not be this kind of interest in Porsche.
Those same people would not be buying them and Porsche could not ride on the wave it's currently riding.
01-28-2003, 12:33 AM
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Just a note...
Some of you should watch your language. To some, your post, intentional or not, can be offensive. I am not talking about transmission being Japanese made but how you talk about it. Especially some of words you choose to use.
Some of you should watch your language. To some, your post, intentional or not, can be offensive. I am not talking about transmission being Japanese made but how you talk about it. Especially some of words you choose to use.
01-28-2003, 01:33 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by 911MSN:
<strong>Just a note...
Some of you should watch your language. To some, your post, intentional or not, can be offensive. I am not talking about transmission being Japanese made but how you talk about it. Especially some of words you choose to use.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Could you please provide a better example of what you're referring to? I've re-read the posts and cannot find anything offensive. Your post is vague and frankly more insulting than anything I've found on this thread.
Your half-Asian, half-European friend with the funny name and a healthy skepticism of "political correctness",
<strong>Just a note...
Some of you should watch your language. To some, your post, intentional or not, can be offensive. I am not talking about transmission being Japanese made but how you talk about it. Especially some of words you choose to use.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Could you please provide a better example of what you're referring to? I've re-read the posts and cannot find anything offensive. Your post is vague and frankly more insulting than anything I've found on this thread.
Your half-Asian, half-European friend with the funny name and a healthy skepticism of "political correctness",
01-28-2003, 02:52 AM
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I'd rather not go anymore in detail but since i've started it, here it goes. i hope this one would be the last one.
maybe it is ok for some but for others, it is not ok to use certain words. There're many Porsche owners and they all have difenent prespective againse certain useage of word. One usage here i saw was "jap". I personally does not like to see that 3 letter word used to refer "Japanese". Case in point, here's some reading you may want to see <a href="http://www.asianweek.com/2002_02_01/news_japwork.html" target="_blank">http://www.asianweek.com/2002_02_01/news_japwork.html</a>
maybe it is ok for some but for others, it is not ok to use certain words. There're many Porsche owners and they all have difenent prespective againse certain useage of word. One usage here i saw was "jap". I personally does not like to see that 3 letter word used to refer "Japanese". Case in point, here's some reading you may want to see <a href="http://www.asianweek.com/2002_02_01/news_japwork.html" target="_blank">http://www.asianweek.com/2002_02_01/news_japwork.html</a>