Is that the great attractor for people to buy SUVs? Or, is that all that Porsche can say to differentiate the P-fish from the luxo-SUV segment? Think Porsche, think fast, think SUV???

I've never been attracted to Porsche due to 0-60 times (or interiors - the other differentiator being touted ). To me, Porsche has meant tenacious handling, huge mid-range pull, killer brakes, sculpted sheet metal, and low maintenance driving satisfaction.

Rover has the image and legacy, BMW has the snob appeal, MB has, well MB has "shoe appeal", and Porsche has 0-60 speed - and interiors. Funny, but our allroad is faster 0-60, has a better (and bigger) interior and cost $25K less then a base P-fish <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

 

[quote]Originally posted by mpm '95 C4:
<strong> Funny, but our allroad is faster 0-60, has a better (and bigger) interior and cost $25K less then a base P-fish <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
True, true.. but we didn't get a nice hardback book to go with the allroad so the Cayenne does have some advantages

<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

 

mpm; craft your own question, you get your own answer. congradulations.

 

[quote]Originally posted by Kevin E Davis:
<strong>mpm; craft your own question, you get your own answer. congradulations.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, I'm somewhat serious, at the very least curious. What do you think Porsche's marketing positioning is for the P-fish?

- "It's fast, because everybody wants fast SUVs"
- "It's an off-road winner, because everybody wants to take their SUV off-road"
- "It's has a luxury interior, like every Porsche owner expects"
- "It's a tow vehicle, like every Porsche owner needs"
- "It's the Porsche of SUVs, because everybody wants a Porsche SUV"

Guess it doesn't matter since Porsche has sold millions and millions of these before anyone has even driven one...

 

Well I think the problem is that, it doesnt really matter about the performance. Its not like you really need to be going fast in an SUV anyway. Plus for 70k?? Who here would buy the porsche SUV over the porsche Sports car?
Arent most town vehicals dualies and the like?

Actually it looks like the Pish, is like an overgrown wagon(with less room)

No one is gonna take the Pish offroad. Infact i think people are more likely to take porsche cars offroad.

No porsche ever had a luxury interior, maybe the 928 was close

apperantly no one wants a porsche SUV, did ANYONE ever say(before all this) "I wish porsche would build an SUV!!!" ????

NO

Now maybe if it cost as much as a boxster??

I mean what kind of idiot is going to walk in to a porsche dealer with a 996 on one side and a Pish on the other and say "Mmmm Porsche..., yeah, ill take the truck!"

 

Gotta start thinking out of the box here guys - you're falling into the trap of believing that that SUV's must all have the same characteristics. Just because the X5 or ML behave in a certain way, so must the Cayenne. Wrong - and Porsche seem to have proved it.

All the tests of the Cayenne agree that the vehicle does not handle like a typical SUV - quite the opposite, as the nurburgring time seems to highlight. The weight-factor means that it is never going to be as good as a 996, but Porsche seems to have worked it's handling magic in a way that Mercedes or BMW can only dream of.

It also seems to be almost as good as the Range Rover off road. So perhaps Porsche have managed the impossible - a SUV that excels in both extremes. Now that's something to be impressed with. If I was in the market for one - it wouldn't be as an "either or" choice with a 996/7, rather as a vehicle that stands on it's own merits.

The marketing angle of attempting to keep Porsche owners throughout their car buying life - Boxster when young and without kids, Cayenne with kids and then the addition of a 996/7 when finances allow seems perfectly logical to me. Especially when you throw in the "cheaper" versions with V6 or Diesel powerplants.

I do have a lifestyle that requires high mileage, four door practicality and off road capability. I drive on fast country roads (as opposed to "Streets") Motorways and as little Urban time as possible. I have an '87 Cab for fun, an A4 Avant Quattro as Daily driver and have to hijack one of my companies Discoveries for the rough stuff. I would love a vehicle that does all the Daily stuff in one package - and does it well.

I'll certainly be considering all the Cayenne variants in a couple of years when the Audi is due to be replaced - but then you'd probably guessed that by now.... Just hope business goes well enough to be able to afford a Turbo.....

 

[quote]Originally posted by Christian Stewart:
<strong> All the tests of the Cayenne agree that the vehicle does not handle like a typical SUV - quite the opposite, as the nurburgring time seems to highlight. It also seems to be almost as good as the Range Rover off road. So perhaps Porsche have managed the impossible - a SUV that excels in both extremes. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Fair enough, and by the time your ready to buy one, maybe it will look the part

 

Well said, Christian.

[quote]Plus for 70k?? Who here would buy the porsche SUV over the porsche Sports car? M Danger <hr></blockquote>

I guess this is like asking why someone might buy a Rolls Royce when it costs as much as a nice house. The folks that can afford the Rolls typically have several nice houses as well. Many folks who will buy the Cayenne already own a 993 or 996, or maybe a Ferrari, etc.

 

[quote]Originally posted by mpm '95 C4:
<strong>

Fair enough, and by the time your ready to buy one, maybe it will look the part </strong><hr></blockquote>

Sad thing is mpm, and I know this is a very bad sign, I'm actually starting to be won over by the pictures I've seen.....

An interesting review in the UK mag EVO, has an interview with Harm Lagaay about the looks... here are some excerpts...

"I don't mind if people aren't sure about the Cayenne' he says in a display of unexpected humility. 'Porsche's identity isn't contained within the side profile of a 911, it's in the subtledy of surfacing, the way the light catches the side of the car. "bones" we call them at Porsche, meaning the way they reveal the bone structure of the car. Design is about pushing and pulling, finding the balance between moving things on and going too far.'"

"It's a healthily candid attitude to have, especially as first impressions suggest the Cayenne is, to coin EVO photographer Andy Morgan's phrase, a 'Marmite' car: you either love it or you hate it. It sounds like a cop out but, after a day in it's company, I think this sort of reaction is restricted to your first glimpse. You really need to see it in 3D, outside, in natural light. You need to to walk around it, crouch down, get close, see it moving, even drive it, before you begin to understand why it looks the way it looks. Whether you then decide to like it, dislike, love or hate Cayenne is up to you. Lagaay can live with your decision, so long as you've given it, and yourself, that chance."

The last sentence sums up my views perfectly.....

 

Up late dude? Is Harm Lagaay the P-fish designer?

[quote]Harm Lagaay:<strong>Porsche's identity isn't contained within the side profile of a 911, it's in the subtlety of surfacing, the way the light catches the side of the car. "bones" we call them at Porsche...
</strong><hr></blockquote>

This kind'a reminds me of Chris Bangel telling everyone they just don't get it when bitching about the new 7 and its hideous rear. What side profile? That was last seen in a 993. The 996 is slab sided.

If they wanted to flaunt the "bones" and muscular road going nature of the P-fish that they are touting, then what's up with the weak and lumpy corners? There is no flow in the lines. It's all broken up. And the stock wheels do not befit the "rugged" nature of this type of vehicle.

By comparison, the T-egg design is smooth and complete. The lines are simple, strong and give the T-egg a commanding presence. And when you consider it shares almost everything with the P-fish why wouldn't you buy the 500 hp V-10 diesel? It'll cost $50K to $60K less then a turbo and it'll give as much, if not more, then the P-fish.

I don't mean to offend, but what really will be the "big" difference between the P-fish and the T-egg (other then money and it would appear looks)? It seems to me it comes back to the badge on the hood, and what some of us feel has been a sellout of that hard earned (read: endurance racing) reputation.

Even if the pictures are wrong and the P-fish is something you want to be seen in, if the T-egg is say 7 or 8/10th's of the P-fish (for $30-60K less), why spend the money (unless money is no object)?

Which brings me back to the value propositon - or marketing positioning. People will want a Porsche SUV because...?

Respectfully...

 

Christian,

mpm is right. It sure sounds reminiscent of Chris Bangel defending "flame surfacing". Maybe, it will look better in person than in the pics.

 

Up early as well mpm - no rest for the wicked!

Don't shoot the messenger - I'm only repeating excerpts from articles within some pretty well respected magazines.

Reading between the lines it would seem that Harm Lagaay inherited the design from his english predecessor and has done his best with what he had. I will still however look forward to seeing it in the flesh before I make judgement.

As for the VW Touareg - in exactly the same way I'm interested in driving the Cayenne, I'm going to be fascinated to drive the VW. There does seem to be no doubt however that the VW is a very different driving experience than the Cayenne. The platform may be shared, but the development has been wholly seperate, manifested perhaps most apparently by the different front rear torque split of the two.

Historically VW (and Audi for that matter)have not been the most adept at tuning suspension and despite Le Mans success with their bigger brother, I would still bet on Porsche producing a better handling car. And this where it matters for me - I live in twisty country road territory where chronic underinvestment in the road network means that one minute you're on smooth blacktop, next minute you're in pothole hell.

We also need to compare like with like here. Porsche has chosen to lead with the top of the range Turbo and slightly lower spec "S". They will subsequently release V6 and Diesel versions. VW are starting with the Diesel and mid range petrol version with their W12 no doubt coming later. I'm keeping an open mind - I reserve the right to decide that the equivalent price and performance VW is the better purchase in two or three years time.

My suspicion, however, is that the Touareg is going to be a very good competitor with the X5 and ML, whilst the Cayenne is marking out new ground....

 

[quote]Originally posted by Christian Stewart:
<strong>Don't shoot the messenger - I'm only repeating excerpts from articles within some pretty well respected magazines.</strong><hr></blockquote>

My comments were of course directed to Harm Lagaay...

Here in Boston, we have some of the worse roads in the country. There is no such thing as road resurfacing - just patching. Oh, and of course major federal road projects like the $14B (yes billion) 11 mile "Big Dig".

When we first started considering a replacement for the Passat estate, I seriously considered waiting for the P-fish/T-egg combo, but by early this year it was clear the wife wasn't willing to wait, and the pictures...well you know how I feel about the pictures

Anyway, we first went the S6 route. But I kept starring at those 17" alloys (on those low profile Conti's) and kept thinking of my pot hole loving spouse (who could care less about the go-fast parts), and drove an allroad - decision over. We get the S6 interior, the air suspension, decent power (propelling it faster then the base P-fish - not that that matters to me), plenty of room for the mutts (again more, and this does matter), and a standout overall package (I love the bull dog tough looks).

I say this because the air suspension (though not identical to the P-fish/T-egg combo) is an indication of how substantial these vehicles will feel on the road (though their mass will still be higher then what an estate would have offered). The allroad eats up bad pavement. All you hear is the "ping" of the radials - no shudder or shake, and it really excells in the twisties - for a 4000 lb. car.

Except at those license and sheet metal threatening last 2 or 3/10 th's, it will be interesting to see how much more the rear biased P-fish offers over the T-egg. Can't wait for your on hand report, since you'll get your hands on them first.

Have a great week...

 

BTW Christian, my neighbor has ordered one (black turbo) sight unseen, to go with his 996 twin and his wifes '02 targa... <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> (umm, that would be me...eating - or drinking if you were - my words )

 

[quote]Maybe, it will look better in person than in the pics.<hr></blockquote>
Anir, while the 7car looks as bad in reality as the photos, the Z4 doesn't, it is a distinctive design one either likes or loathes. Friends (life-long die-hard Porsche buyers) who have seen the C (@ Paris show) tell me all the controversy about its looks is overblown (hey, they're UTILITY vehicles, not purpose-built for the concours circuit). While I care greatly for styling (owned 10 Alfas), I care most about what is under the skin in a utility-function vehicle. Yet I agree that no one should buy any type of high $ niche product that doesn't meet their personal aesthetic criteria.

MPM, I appreciate your preference for the T, you must embark on long drives to find roads where the hi-perf C would distinguish itself. Now, with Christian doing the field research & driving (& reporting herein, we hope), and your neighbor taking the plunge, you will face more tests of your long-held pov. Somehow, I think you will pass.