hey folks-- seldom have i seen as much heat and so little light shed on any topic as
05-03-2002, 06:20 PM
#16
Drifting
Line of ownership.
68 Ford country squire station wagon
75 " " " " "
94 AWD Ford Aerostar
85 Jeep Cherokee Ltd
92 " " "
00 Chrysler T&C AWD
00 AWD RX300
Current:
01 AWD RX300, 01 AWD C4
SUV love, or simple functionality?
The Cayenne will die a quick death, not becuase it's a poor base design, or that there isn't a huge market for SUVs, but becuase no one needs the kind of HP in an medium size SUV that Freddi Scbwab has insisted on.
68 Ford country squire station wagon
75 " " " " "
94 AWD Ford Aerostar
85 Jeep Cherokee Ltd
92 " " "
00 Chrysler T&C AWD
00 AWD RX300
Current:
01 AWD RX300, 01 AWD C4
SUV love, or simple functionality?
The Cayenne will die a quick death, not becuase it's a poor base design, or that there isn't a huge market for SUVs, but becuase no one needs the kind of HP in an medium size SUV that Freddi Scbwab has insisted on.
05-03-2002, 08:58 PM
#17
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You think Porsche is having trouble paying its bills????
Read their annual report. They had record profits!
Paying the bills is not what the Cayenne is about - it is strictly an investment that attempts to capitalize on the Porsche name. I don't fault Porsche for doing it, I only attempt to point out that it is driven by corporate economics, not a family decision. When the family decided to sell the company, it was inevitable the company would target alternative market segments. You are right - there's no going back.
Just wait until they announce they are going to make minivans, hybrids or fuel cell cars.
Read their annual report. They had record profits!
Paying the bills is not what the Cayenne is about - it is strictly an investment that attempts to capitalize on the Porsche name. I don't fault Porsche for doing it, I only attempt to point out that it is driven by corporate economics, not a family decision. When the family decided to sell the company, it was inevitable the company would target alternative market segments. You are right - there's no going back.
Just wait until they announce they are going to make minivans, hybrids or fuel cell cars.
05-03-2002, 09:08 PM
#18
King of Cool
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[quote]Originally posted by ignacio:
<strong>...it will sell like hotcakes and provide money to porsche to further expand their product line so you can at last buy a new v8!...</strong><hr></blockquote>
How about starting to do some racing again?!
Have you guys heard words racing heritage before?
<strong>...it will sell like hotcakes and provide money to porsche to further expand their product line so you can at last buy a new v8!...</strong><hr></blockquote>
How about starting to do some racing again?!
Have you guys heard words racing heritage before?
05-03-2002, 09:19 PM
#19
King of Cool
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[quote]Originally posted by JBH:
<strong>You think Porsche is having trouble paying its bills????
Read their annual report. They had record profits!
Paying the bills is not what the Cayenne is about - it is strictly an investment that attempts to capitalize on the Porsche name. I don't fault Porsche for doing it, I only attempt to point out that it is driven by corporate economics, not a family decision. When the family decided to sell the company, it was inevitable the company would target alternative market segments...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Right on the money! I couldn't agree more!
Everyone is whining that they need to build Cayenne in order to stay independent, nostalgia doesn't pay the bills etc. while at the same time they are a making huge profit!
I'm sure you guys are still happy after Porsche has dumbed 911 from it's production line up & replaced it with pick-up, Boxster is replaced by minivan & all of those three sell as hotcakes.
And BTW, what's wrong with Fiat owning Ferrari?!
Have you seen their cars/! Or have you seen their succes in racing?!
It really is difficult for me to understand what's wrong with their cars or Formula 1 racing? Could someone please explain?
I think I need a strong one. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />
<strong>You think Porsche is having trouble paying its bills????
Read their annual report. They had record profits!
Paying the bills is not what the Cayenne is about - it is strictly an investment that attempts to capitalize on the Porsche name. I don't fault Porsche for doing it, I only attempt to point out that it is driven by corporate economics, not a family decision. When the family decided to sell the company, it was inevitable the company would target alternative market segments...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Right on the money! I couldn't agree more!
Everyone is whining that they need to build Cayenne in order to stay independent, nostalgia doesn't pay the bills etc. while at the same time they are a making huge profit!
I'm sure you guys are still happy after Porsche has dumbed 911 from it's production line up & replaced it with pick-up, Boxster is replaced by minivan & all of those three sell as hotcakes.
And BTW, what's wrong with Fiat owning Ferrari?!
Have you seen their cars/! Or have you seen their succes in racing?!
It really is difficult for me to understand what's wrong with their cars or Formula 1 racing? Could someone please explain?
I think I need a strong one. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />
05-04-2002, 01:11 AM
#20
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Go Finn and JBH - you two are dead on! Through all these Pepper-pot strings over the past month or so, your posts sum up this debate!
This thing isn't about staying independent (with record profits they could have done countless other things and remained free). It isn't about returning to racing (because the Pepper-mill isn't heading to Baja, or Dakar - just the race to the mall. And it vertually rules out the now cash starved Porsche from returning to racing for at least the next two seasons).
No, it's all about a foolish notion that the marquee needed to become something more then what it was, made by a corporation needing to be fed.
And in that feeding frenzy, Freddie's Flub may bring the house down...and keep Porsche out of elite endurance racing for a long, long time.
Have a great weekend...
This thing isn't about staying independent (with record profits they could have done countless other things and remained free). It isn't about returning to racing (because the Pepper-mill isn't heading to Baja, or Dakar - just the race to the mall. And it vertually rules out the now cash starved Porsche from returning to racing for at least the next two seasons).
No, it's all about a foolish notion that the marquee needed to become something more then what it was, made by a corporation needing to be fed.
And in that feeding frenzy, Freddie's Flub may bring the house down...and keep Porsche out of elite endurance racing for a long, long time.
Have a great weekend...
05-04-2002, 03:40 AM
#21
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hey mpm-
i see you own an 2002 audi allroad wagon. wouldn't you at least have test driven the cayenne if it had been available?
food for thought?
i see you own an 2002 audi allroad wagon. wouldn't you at least have test driven the cayenne if it had been available?
food for thought?
05-04-2002, 05:07 AM
#22
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Indeed Ignacio. I think it's that people like yourself, and Kevin E Davis are not alarmist or given to bouts of hysteria. Someone pointed out that the BMW enthusiasts were mighty upset about the X5 coming out. Now they seem to have forgotten all about that and are griping about engine failures on the new M3's and how expensive and heavy those cars have become.
There is nothing wrong with Fiat owning Ferrari. What major car manufacturer would you like to see own Porsche? There's nothing wrong with going racing or Formula 1. Formula 1 however is awfully boring these days. It's horrible that the majority of the passing action happens in the first turn and just as often as not due to crashes. Then the rest of the passing takes place when someone pits and the commentators are reduced to discussing one or two stop strategy the ENTIRE race. Anyway, that's not to say that Formula 1 is the only racing Porsche should be involved with, there are obviously plenty of other series.
Anyway, it's always an option to jump ship and become the customer of another marquee. Like everyone loves to point out, Ferrari is a pure sports car company succeeding in racing. So go buy one. I for one have always been partial to the 512TR.
<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
There is nothing wrong with Fiat owning Ferrari. What major car manufacturer would you like to see own Porsche? There's nothing wrong with going racing or Formula 1. Formula 1 however is awfully boring these days. It's horrible that the majority of the passing action happens in the first turn and just as often as not due to crashes. Then the rest of the passing takes place when someone pits and the commentators are reduced to discussing one or two stop strategy the ENTIRE race. Anyway, that's not to say that Formula 1 is the only racing Porsche should be involved with, there are obviously plenty of other series.
Anyway, it's always an option to jump ship and become the customer of another marquee. Like everyone loves to point out, Ferrari is a pure sports car company succeeding in racing. So go buy one. I for one have always been partial to the 512TR.
<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
05-04-2002, 01:31 PM
#23
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Attention Feeble Freddie, I was the perfect demo for the Catfish: loyal Porsche enthuisiast, "of means", and ready to upgrade our people/dog hauler. And absolutely Ignacio - I was holding out to see if they would build a nice one (we need a sport utility to haul our dogs - and for my wifes design business), but as design studies and spy photos started appearing and cost estimates started being bandied about - I bailed.
We looked at the BMW (love the lines and the ride, but there is no boot to fit one 60# dog let alone 3, and the back seats suck), and the ML, but it's ugly and the interior is cheap. The allroad is a great cross between an luxury estate and an SUV, one drive and I was sold. Believe it or not if I was forced into one car - it would be an allroad.
Aftrer buying the allroad is when I really started getting nutty about Porsches decision to build this thing. Sorry but all the logic they throw out (attract Porsche loyalists - and cross over to the soccer mom set, need to get on to another platform, built due to Porsche's off-road racing heritage, and need to feed the coffers to remain independent) can be easily rebutted.
They could have saved tons of Euros (and got to the market sooner) by building a cross-over estate off the existing VAG platform (no need to spend huge sums on a new platform - for only 25,000 units - what is the need to build a new platform now? and why for this?), stuffed it with the new V8 (so it could show up where ever), filled it with all those great go fast/stop right/corner flat Porsche parts right out of the parts bin (isn't that the real financial success story of the Boxster/996?), sold their 12,500 NA units (where cross-over estates are the trend - and we all know how fickel and trendy the NA consumer is) and 12,500 European units (where estates are prefered), and had a better overall net addition to the bottom line (more profit per unit would have occured off an existing estate platform - limiting the design expensive and quickening its time-to-market).
Add to this more cost effective and brand expanding decision, Porsche would still had enough money to get back to the real business of endurance racing NOW - not 2 or 3 years from now! They've admitted publicly that this thing will not race, because the debt laddened Pepper-pot decision forced Porsche into a cash starved position. Racing at Porsche has taken the back seat to building SUVs! Dr. Ferry would not be pleased. Worse of all, they truly bet the ranch on this thing - why do it if you don't have to?
Call me alarmist LastV8 (and religious Mr. Davis - which I am about cars) - it's more my passion for the brand (and enjoyment of sharing thoughts on boards like Rennlist - with others who feel equally as passionate about Porsche - even if we don't agree). But this thing represents a series of bad decisions promoted by Figurehead Freddie who was willing to sell out the Porsche brand based on 1997 market statisics - and crossed fingers.
Hopefully, I'll eat a lot of crow over my predictions, but I am even more resolute in my belief that Fearless Freddie, and his "know-it-all", "make the research prove me right" ego has built an ugly (my major bitch), expensive, and late to the party SUV. It will not cross-over in the NA market (due to price). It will be shunned by most Porsche enthusiast (at least this one). And it will force Porsche to be sold. Let's hope its VAG who will rebild the marquee to its racing heritage, and add all those great Porsche parts to a company who has the money to build good platforms...
Sorry for the long post, let the debate rage, we can only now wait and see. Have a great weekend...
We looked at the BMW (love the lines and the ride, but there is no boot to fit one 60# dog let alone 3, and the back seats suck), and the ML, but it's ugly and the interior is cheap. The allroad is a great cross between an luxury estate and an SUV, one drive and I was sold. Believe it or not if I was forced into one car - it would be an allroad.
Aftrer buying the allroad is when I really started getting nutty about Porsches decision to build this thing. Sorry but all the logic they throw out (attract Porsche loyalists - and cross over to the soccer mom set, need to get on to another platform, built due to Porsche's off-road racing heritage, and need to feed the coffers to remain independent) can be easily rebutted.
They could have saved tons of Euros (and got to the market sooner) by building a cross-over estate off the existing VAG platform (no need to spend huge sums on a new platform - for only 25,000 units - what is the need to build a new platform now? and why for this?), stuffed it with the new V8 (so it could show up where ever), filled it with all those great go fast/stop right/corner flat Porsche parts right out of the parts bin (isn't that the real financial success story of the Boxster/996?), sold their 12,500 NA units (where cross-over estates are the trend - and we all know how fickel and trendy the NA consumer is) and 12,500 European units (where estates are prefered), and had a better overall net addition to the bottom line (more profit per unit would have occured off an existing estate platform - limiting the design expensive and quickening its time-to-market).
Add to this more cost effective and brand expanding decision, Porsche would still had enough money to get back to the real business of endurance racing NOW - not 2 or 3 years from now! They've admitted publicly that this thing will not race, because the debt laddened Pepper-pot decision forced Porsche into a cash starved position. Racing at Porsche has taken the back seat to building SUVs! Dr. Ferry would not be pleased. Worse of all, they truly bet the ranch on this thing - why do it if you don't have to?
Call me alarmist LastV8 (and religious Mr. Davis - which I am about cars) - it's more my passion for the brand (and enjoyment of sharing thoughts on boards like Rennlist - with others who feel equally as passionate about Porsche - even if we don't agree). But this thing represents a series of bad decisions promoted by Figurehead Freddie who was willing to sell out the Porsche brand based on 1997 market statisics - and crossed fingers.
Hopefully, I'll eat a lot of crow over my predictions, but I am even more resolute in my belief that Fearless Freddie, and his "know-it-all", "make the research prove me right" ego has built an ugly (my major bitch), expensive, and late to the party SUV. It will not cross-over in the NA market (due to price). It will be shunned by most Porsche enthusiast (at least this one). And it will force Porsche to be sold. Let's hope its VAG who will rebild the marquee to its racing heritage, and add all those great Porsche parts to a company who has the money to build good platforms...
Sorry for the long post, let the debate rage, we can only now wait and see. Have a great weekend...
05-04-2002, 02:29 PM
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It's understandable to have passion for the brand but there's simply nothing anyone can do right now except wait and see.
As much as I'd like to see the Cayenne succeed for Porsche's sake, I don't necessarily want to see any SUV's from any manufacturer succeed because I just don't like them. Running from Santa Barbara down to LA last night in my Audi S4 in the 100mph range I had yet another run in with overpowered pick ups and SUV's driving recklessly trying to keep up. I wasn't trying to race, just run hard getting home and these two fools, both in American made SUV's forced me to slow down for their sake. It just sucked. On the few occasions I've driven SUV's I've never felt the need to go above 70mph regardless of the kind of hp the truck was packing.
Anyway, babbling done.
<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
As much as I'd like to see the Cayenne succeed for Porsche's sake, I don't necessarily want to see any SUV's from any manufacturer succeed because I just don't like them. Running from Santa Barbara down to LA last night in my Audi S4 in the 100mph range I had yet another run in with overpowered pick ups and SUV's driving recklessly trying to keep up. I wasn't trying to race, just run hard getting home and these two fools, both in American made SUV's forced me to slow down for their sake. It just sucked. On the few occasions I've driven SUV's I've never felt the need to go above 70mph regardless of the kind of hp the truck was packing.
Anyway, babbling done.
<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
05-04-2002, 02:49 PM
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Guys,
The more I think about the wealth and independent of Porsche, the more questions I have...
I now think that maybe it's a good idea for a big company to buy Porsche, for it to be VW, MB or even BMW... I mean look at how FIAT just let Ferarri runs on its own, and Ford is pushing Jaguar back to it's roots and so is Aston M., VW is trying to put Bugartti and Lambo back to their glory... Sooo whoever buys Porsche in my opinion will keep Porsche on track of building sports car and sports cars ONLY. No more of this SUV craps and not racing BS.
And most important of all NO MORE DR. W. What do you guys think???? <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
The more I think about the wealth and independent of Porsche, the more questions I have...
I now think that maybe it's a good idea for a big company to buy Porsche, for it to be VW, MB or even BMW... I mean look at how FIAT just let Ferarri runs on its own, and Ford is pushing Jaguar back to it's roots and so is Aston M., VW is trying to put Bugartti and Lambo back to their glory... Sooo whoever buys Porsche in my opinion will keep Porsche on track of building sports car and sports cars ONLY. No more of this SUV craps and not racing BS.
And most important of all NO MORE DR. W. What do you guys think???? <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
05-04-2002, 06:14 PM
#27
King of Cool
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mpm, I'm glad I'm not alone! 
ignacio,
You're not getting it... Audi is Audi, it's not sportscar company, Porsche is (until C is launched), that's my problem, I couldn't care less or Toyota or whoever builds sedans, SUV's etc. but when my beloved sportscar company is doing that, it makes me mad.
I don't know if you follow any motorsports but that is what took me into the 'love affair' with Porsche and that is exactly why so many People like Porsche!
After many, many decades of building winning race cars, tuning them down to street cars, they've stopped racing, instead, they build trucks!
Don't you think there's something wrong in that picture?
It's because all those people who don't know/care about Porsche's racing or Porsche being true sportscar company, instead wanting cupholders etc. that we are now arguing over Cayenne.
KC993,
If someone buying Porsche would result in things like Ferrari is doing, I'd be happy to see that!
ignacio,
You're not getting it... Audi is Audi, it's not sportscar company, Porsche is (until C is launched), that's my problem, I couldn't care less or Toyota or whoever builds sedans, SUV's etc. but when my beloved sportscar company is doing that, it makes me mad.
I don't know if you follow any motorsports but that is what took me into the 'love affair' with Porsche and that is exactly why so many People like Porsche!
After many, many decades of building winning race cars, tuning them down to street cars, they've stopped racing, instead, they build trucks!
Don't you think there's something wrong in that picture?
It's because all those people who don't know/care about Porsche's racing or Porsche being true sportscar company, instead wanting cupholders etc. that we are now arguing over Cayenne.
KC993,
If someone buying Porsche would result in things like Ferrari is doing, I'd be happy to see that!
05-04-2002, 10:37 PM
#29
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Hi KC
[quote] And most important of all NO MORE DR. W. What do you guys think???? <hr></blockquote>
Just curious... Who do you think should be running the company?
Mike
[quote] And most important of all NO MORE DR. W. What do you guys think???? <hr></blockquote>
Just curious... Who do you think should be running the company?
Mike
05-04-2002, 11:18 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Mike in Chi:
<strong>Hi KC
Just curious... Who do you think should be running the company?
Mike</strong><hr></blockquote>
Walter Rohrl !!! or Norbert Singer !!!
<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
<strong>Hi KC
Just curious... Who do you think should be running the company?
Mike</strong><hr></blockquote>
Walter Rohrl !!! or Norbert Singer !!!
<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />