Ordering a cayenne.
09-22-2002 | 11:15 AM
#46
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From: Lexington, KY
[quote]Originally posted by Bob S.:
<strong>I think it is funny how many people really think those who purchase this 4500 pound tank are really going to take it "off road". More often than not it will be used to pick up Suzie from ballet lessons, little Chucky from Soccer practice, and to impress the neighbors. These will be purchased more to prop up egos than the purpose for which they were (allegedly) designed. There are many other vehicles that will perform the same suburban tasks equally well for far less money.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Bob,
This is a frequent argument against SUV's, and one that I used to make for many years as well. We finally bought an SUV after realizing that we needed to ability to haul more than 4 people and tow a track car.
However, you must surely realize that your argument applies equally well to Porsche's sports cars in this day and age. Most people who drive a 996 or Boxster never take it "off-road" (i.e. to the track), nor do they exceed something like 90 mph. They buy it to satisfy an emotional desire, haul kids and groceries, and maybe "impress the neighbors". So, it's easy to argue that owners are not using Porsche sports cars for the intended purpose - racing.
I would guess that Rennlisters represent an active, but minor, segment of the Porsche buying population. Most of us grew up working on cars, and love performing maintenance / adding upgrades ourselves / flogging our cars on the track. I'd bet that most Porsche owners get all maintenance done at the dealer and never venture onto the track in their expensive baby.
<strong>I think it is funny how many people really think those who purchase this 4500 pound tank are really going to take it "off road". More often than not it will be used to pick up Suzie from ballet lessons, little Chucky from Soccer practice, and to impress the neighbors. These will be purchased more to prop up egos than the purpose for which they were (allegedly) designed. There are many other vehicles that will perform the same suburban tasks equally well for far less money.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Bob,
This is a frequent argument against SUV's, and one that I used to make for many years as well. We finally bought an SUV after realizing that we needed to ability to haul more than 4 people and tow a track car.
However, you must surely realize that your argument applies equally well to Porsche's sports cars in this day and age. Most people who drive a 996 or Boxster never take it "off-road" (i.e. to the track), nor do they exceed something like 90 mph. They buy it to satisfy an emotional desire, haul kids and groceries, and maybe "impress the neighbors". So, it's easy to argue that owners are not using Porsche sports cars for the intended purpose - racing.
I would guess that Rennlisters represent an active, but minor, segment of the Porsche buying population. Most of us grew up working on cars, and love performing maintenance / adding upgrades ourselves / flogging our cars on the track. I'd bet that most Porsche owners get all maintenance done at the dealer and never venture onto the track in their expensive baby.
09-22-2002 | 03:15 PM
#47
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From: Bahrain
No car is totaly reliable and as far as newly interduced models go, then one could assume that things will probably not be as perfect as they wish them to be. Porsche, along with other manufacturers, have their own teething problems when they roll out a new model.
If everytime a new clean-sheet-of-paper-model comes out and peaple fear buying it just based on an assumption that things will go wrong then I guess that leaves us with the "tried and true" older models. With no chance to evolve a product based on input from the diffrent buyers then will that still leave us all driving Model T's ?
The Cayenne is a great product and I am sure of the fact that it will prove to be populer not only among conquest buyers but among die-hard fans as well.
If everytime a new clean-sheet-of-paper-model comes out and peaple fear buying it just based on an assumption that things will go wrong then I guess that leaves us with the "tried and true" older models. With no chance to evolve a product based on input from the diffrent buyers then will that still leave us all driving Model T's ?
The Cayenne is a great product and I am sure of the fact that it will prove to be populer not only among conquest buyers but among die-hard fans as well.
09-23-2002 | 01:13 AM
#48
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From: DeBary, FL
A quick point.
The LR's that are sold in the US are primarily fluff models. They only sell the gas versions with auto transmissions.
The ones that win championships and that are reliable around the world are totally different. They are purpose built, usually diesel with manual transmissions. The US did get a competent LR a while ago, the Defender 90. You can no longer get them here, and good luck finding a used one.
The LR is a soccer mom vehicle in the US. That is why they only sell certain versions. In the US Jeeps are extremely capable machines that can do almost anything without breaking the bank. I have plenty of friends that used to own LR's, but got tired of repairing them. I am sure it would be different if we were getting the same models that are being sold in Africa, or Australia.
Anyway, just my .02
The LR's that are sold in the US are primarily fluff models. They only sell the gas versions with auto transmissions.
The ones that win championships and that are reliable around the world are totally different. They are purpose built, usually diesel with manual transmissions. The US did get a competent LR a while ago, the Defender 90. You can no longer get them here, and good luck finding a used one.
The LR is a soccer mom vehicle in the US. That is why they only sell certain versions. In the US Jeeps are extremely capable machines that can do almost anything without breaking the bank. I have plenty of friends that used to own LR's, but got tired of repairing them. I am sure it would be different if we were getting the same models that are being sold in Africa, or Australia.
Anyway, just my .02
09-23-2002 | 08:37 AM
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A quick model rundown on the Land Rover stable as it exists at the moment from the UK.
90 / 110 (Defender) - Ancient design updated with modern diesel and modernish petrol engines for serious abuse whether it be agricultural, desert etc - great workhorses, more reliable now than before and designed to be worked to their death. Likely to be seen in Army and UN guises.
Freelander - new mini SUV with good "normal" off road ablilty - made much better when "tricked" into Camel Trophy Guise. Reliability not good in its early days, much better now - same choice of diesel and petrol engines. A cheap end "lifestyle" vehicle with good offroad ability.
Discovery - now in it's fourth incarnation, although two of those have been minor revisions. Very good off road ability in the "normal" sense - reliability again much better now - but used to be horrendous (I went through four gearboxes in a MK2) Great towing vehicle and given much abuse by the farming community - a more expensive and more comfortable alternative to the 90/110's, but just as effective off road. Same Petrol and Diesel engine range.
Range Rover - despite it's fluffy image and average profile of buyer, this machine was originally designed for abuse. Do not underestimate it's offroad ability or pedigree. Later and latest versions have concentrated on making the "Road" experience better - but the suspension travel, entry exit angles and off road competence remains. The newest version has hopefully addressed some of the horrendous reliability concerns, and has a good range of diesel and petrol engines.
You must remember when comparing vehicles that in different countries there are hugely different requirements. In the Outback in Australia the thought of relying on a Land Rover would horrify most. Breakdown is likely to mean death - hence Japanese domination. Here in the UK the Land Rover marque has had a traditional base in the countryside with gains in new models being sold to urban areas with the country "lifestyle" attached.
In some countries, one Marque has a historical dominance that has lead to advantages of dealer network etc. To their credit LR have not forsaken the off road credentials of their new models, realising that to do so would undermine their appeal.
Specialist or modified competition or trail off roaders can be based on almost anything. Given standard showroom spec LR's will stand their ground against most opposition and these days generally do it without breaking down.
90 / 110 (Defender) - Ancient design updated with modern diesel and modernish petrol engines for serious abuse whether it be agricultural, desert etc - great workhorses, more reliable now than before and designed to be worked to their death. Likely to be seen in Army and UN guises.
Freelander - new mini SUV with good "normal" off road ablilty - made much better when "tricked" into Camel Trophy Guise. Reliability not good in its early days, much better now - same choice of diesel and petrol engines. A cheap end "lifestyle" vehicle with good offroad ability.
Discovery - now in it's fourth incarnation, although two of those have been minor revisions. Very good off road ability in the "normal" sense - reliability again much better now - but used to be horrendous (I went through four gearboxes in a MK2) Great towing vehicle and given much abuse by the farming community - a more expensive and more comfortable alternative to the 90/110's, but just as effective off road. Same Petrol and Diesel engine range.
Range Rover - despite it's fluffy image and average profile of buyer, this machine was originally designed for abuse. Do not underestimate it's offroad ability or pedigree. Later and latest versions have concentrated on making the "Road" experience better - but the suspension travel, entry exit angles and off road competence remains. The newest version has hopefully addressed some of the horrendous reliability concerns, and has a good range of diesel and petrol engines.
You must remember when comparing vehicles that in different countries there are hugely different requirements. In the Outback in Australia the thought of relying on a Land Rover would horrify most. Breakdown is likely to mean death - hence Japanese domination. Here in the UK the Land Rover marque has had a traditional base in the countryside with gains in new models being sold to urban areas with the country "lifestyle" attached.
In some countries, one Marque has a historical dominance that has lead to advantages of dealer network etc. To their credit LR have not forsaken the off road credentials of their new models, realising that to do so would undermine their appeal.
Specialist or modified competition or trail off roaders can be based on almost anything. Given standard showroom spec LR's will stand their ground against most opposition and these days generally do it without breaking down.
09-25-2002 | 01:02 AM
#50
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Anir:
I totally agree. Few of the marque ever see track time. But, as far as presenting a potential for damage to others and the environment, a high certered 4500 pound vehicle vs. a 3000 vehicle makes for an interesting head on contest (pun intended). What I fear is some Cayenne owners will try to "drive it like a Porsche", placing themselves and others in danger. We all own a Porsche because it "feels good" I have owned four of them over the years (none new, not that well off!!!!). but, I am at that stage of life I really think I am outgrowing them. My current "toy", (the much dispised 944) has languished in the garge now for five weeks, time to put the battery charger on it overnight. Yet, I hesitate selling it; it's an ego thing. "I own a Porsche" sounds much better than "I used to own a Porsche".
There used to be a vehicle perfectly suited for three kids, two dogs and luggage (not to mention mother-in-law). It was called a Station Wagon. Now the MiniVan provides the same service if what one is looking for a vehicle that will not go "off road" and still deliver the groceries. For most people, the SUV is a "What if" vehicle, and the "what if" rarely if ever happens.
Not arguing the quality of the vehicle as I am questioning the need. Aren't we Americans fat and lazy enough?
"nuff said; I'm old, tired and losing my faith in the collective intelligence of the human race....
I totally agree. Few of the marque ever see track time. But, as far as presenting a potential for damage to others and the environment, a high certered 4500 pound vehicle vs. a 3000 vehicle makes for an interesting head on contest (pun intended). What I fear is some Cayenne owners will try to "drive it like a Porsche", placing themselves and others in danger. We all own a Porsche because it "feels good" I have owned four of them over the years (none new, not that well off!!!!). but, I am at that stage of life I really think I am outgrowing them. My current "toy", (the much dispised 944) has languished in the garge now for five weeks, time to put the battery charger on it overnight. Yet, I hesitate selling it; it's an ego thing. "I own a Porsche" sounds much better than "I used to own a Porsche".
There used to be a vehicle perfectly suited for three kids, two dogs and luggage (not to mention mother-in-law). It was called a Station Wagon. Now the MiniVan provides the same service if what one is looking for a vehicle that will not go "off road" and still deliver the groceries. For most people, the SUV is a "What if" vehicle, and the "what if" rarely if ever happens.
Not arguing the quality of the vehicle as I am questioning the need. Aren't we Americans fat and lazy enough?
"nuff said; I'm old, tired and losing my faith in the collective intelligence of the human race....
09-25-2002 | 07:26 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Anir:
<strong>
So, it's easy to argue that owners are not using Porsche sports cars for the intended purpose - racing.
I would guess that Rennlisters represent an active, but minor, segment of the Porsche buying population. Most of us grew up working on cars, and love performing maintenance / adding upgrades ourselves / flogging our cars on the track. I'd bet that most Porsche owners get all maintenance done at the dealer and never venture onto the track in their expensive baby.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's an interesting area of differing perception here - I've always regarded most Porsches as very much road cars, not race cars. I find it easier to understand GT2 and GT3's being tracked, but a large part of me winces when I see standard 911's, 993's and 996's being thrashed around a track.
With suitable modifications, no problem, the inevitable wear and tear introduced by track abuse can be addressed. I also see the pleasure in being able to drive a car to the track and then "track" it.
But there are surely huge compromises here if the "track adventure" is to be taken any further. For proper racing any road suitablilty must be almost completely dialled out or made illegal.
A large part of me observing hugely expensive track modified P cars wonders why the owners didn't go down the route of purchasing a "real" track device designed for nothing else, be it single seater or sports.
<strong>
So, it's easy to argue that owners are not using Porsche sports cars for the intended purpose - racing.
I would guess that Rennlisters represent an active, but minor, segment of the Porsche buying population. Most of us grew up working on cars, and love performing maintenance / adding upgrades ourselves / flogging our cars on the track. I'd bet that most Porsche owners get all maintenance done at the dealer and never venture onto the track in their expensive baby.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's an interesting area of differing perception here - I've always regarded most Porsches as very much road cars, not race cars. I find it easier to understand GT2 and GT3's being tracked, but a large part of me winces when I see standard 911's, 993's and 996's being thrashed around a track.
With suitable modifications, no problem, the inevitable wear and tear introduced by track abuse can be addressed. I also see the pleasure in being able to drive a car to the track and then "track" it.
But there are surely huge compromises here if the "track adventure" is to be taken any further. For proper racing any road suitablilty must be almost completely dialled out or made illegal.
A large part of me observing hugely expensive track modified P cars wonders why the owners didn't go down the route of purchasing a "real" track device designed for nothing else, be it single seater or sports.
09-25-2002 | 01:17 PM
#52
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From: Phoenix, Az
[quote]Originally posted by Christian Stewart:
<strong>
It's an interesting area of differing perception here - I've always regarded most Porsches as very much road cars, not race cars. I find it easier to understand GT2 and GT3's being tracked, but a large part of me winces when I see standard 911's, 993's and 996's being thrashed around a track.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I completely and strongly disagree.....
Every car to carry a Porsche badge (amazingly even the Cayenne) (tractor excepted).. Was designed and intenened to be taken the to track every now and them. I applaud all of you guys who do take your cars out to the track. Personally I feel that the true limits of nearly any Stock Porsche cannot be explored on open public roads. The capability of the cars is too great and therefore the only place to do so is the race track. Racing and taking car out to the track to drive are two completly different things. I know as I have done both. What sickens me are the super concour cars that at 10+ years old and have 200 orginal miles.... Not even enough for the first oil change... Porsches are not made to sit or be babied on the road. They are made to be driven hard, both on the street AND on the TRACK!!!
<strong>
It's an interesting area of differing perception here - I've always regarded most Porsches as very much road cars, not race cars. I find it easier to understand GT2 and GT3's being tracked, but a large part of me winces when I see standard 911's, 993's and 996's being thrashed around a track.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I completely and strongly disagree.....
Every car to carry a Porsche badge (amazingly even the Cayenne) (tractor excepted).. Was designed and intenened to be taken the to track every now and them. I applaud all of you guys who do take your cars out to the track. Personally I feel that the true limits of nearly any Stock Porsche cannot be explored on open public roads. The capability of the cars is too great and therefore the only place to do so is the race track. Racing and taking car out to the track to drive are two completly different things. I know as I have done both. What sickens me are the super concour cars that at 10+ years old and have 200 orginal miles.... Not even enough for the first oil change... Porsches are not made to sit or be babied on the road. They are made to be driven hard, both on the street AND on the TRACK!!!
09-25-2002 | 10:52 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Christian Stewart:
<strong>A large part of me observing hugely expensive track modified P cars wonders why the owners didn't go down the route of purchasing a "real" track device designed for nothing else, be it single seater or sports.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Christian,
In this day and age, with speed restrictions and SUV-laden traffic clogging the streets, it's a bit difficult to explore your Porsche's abilities on the street. Taking your Porsche to the track is just plain fun, and these cars handle the flogging pretty well. Of course, there is an element of risk (i.e. body damage), but DE accidents are relatively uncommon and the risk of an accident exists in normal street driving as well.
Many Porsche owners do eventually drift to single-purpose race cars as they become more involved in track days. I've only done six track days so far, and I'm already leaning towards Spec Racer Fords, or something similar, to improve my skills (and control costs) for next year.
However, in the beginning, it's really enjoyable, and relatively inexpensive, to take the p-car to the track. Not to mention - you learn an incredible amount about your Porsche's abilities and limits, and this should make you a better driver on the street.
[quote]Originally posted by Bob:
<strong>Not arguing the quality of the vehicle as I am questioning the need. Aren't we Americans fat and lazy enough?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Bob,
We needed a tow vehicle, and I don't think a minivan nor station wagon can tow as well as a longer-wheelbase truck/SUV. So, an SUV might actually be more of a "need" for us than a Porsche.
With respect to Americans being "fat", you'll get no argument from this guy in medicine. However, I have to disagree with you about the "lazy" part. As a group, Americans work harder, and put in longer hours, and take less vacation, than the citizens of just about any industrialized/modern country in the world.
<strong>A large part of me observing hugely expensive track modified P cars wonders why the owners didn't go down the route of purchasing a "real" track device designed for nothing else, be it single seater or sports.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Christian,
In this day and age, with speed restrictions and SUV-laden traffic clogging the streets, it's a bit difficult to explore your Porsche's abilities on the street. Taking your Porsche to the track is just plain fun, and these cars handle the flogging pretty well. Of course, there is an element of risk (i.e. body damage), but DE accidents are relatively uncommon and the risk of an accident exists in normal street driving as well.
Many Porsche owners do eventually drift to single-purpose race cars as they become more involved in track days. I've only done six track days so far, and I'm already leaning towards Spec Racer Fords, or something similar, to improve my skills (and control costs) for next year.
However, in the beginning, it's really enjoyable, and relatively inexpensive, to take the p-car to the track. Not to mention - you learn an incredible amount about your Porsche's abilities and limits, and this should make you a better driver on the street.
[quote]Originally posted by Bob:
<strong>Not arguing the quality of the vehicle as I am questioning the need. Aren't we Americans fat and lazy enough?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Bob,
We needed a tow vehicle, and I don't think a minivan nor station wagon can tow as well as a longer-wheelbase truck/SUV. So, an SUV might actually be more of a "need" for us than a Porsche.
With respect to Americans being "fat", you'll get no argument from this guy in medicine. However, I have to disagree with you about the "lazy" part. As a group, Americans work harder, and put in longer hours, and take less vacation, than the citizens of just about any industrialized/modern country in the world.
09-26-2002 | 08:57 AM
#55
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[quote]Originally posted by mpm '95 C4:
<strong>I race karts instead
</strong><hr></blockquote>
mpm,
what's the best place to start looking for 250 cc shifter karts?
I'm thinking of buying since my motocross plans aren't working out so well & I know how blast & fast these things are!
<strong>I race karts instead
</strong><hr></blockquote>mpm,
what's the best place to start looking for 250 cc shifter karts?
I'm thinking of buying since my motocross plans aren't working out so well & I know how blast & fast these things are!
09-26-2002 | 04:30 PM
#56
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Okay, I've read this entire thread and I need to put in my 0.2 cents. I've owned a CJ7, a Wrangler, a Grand Cherokee, and now a RR 4.6. There is no comparison between a Jeep and a RR. I take my truck off road for a PURPOSE. I hike and climb in the Cascades and Rockies and use it to approach trailheads, etc. The local S&R guys drive modded 4-runners, I can go in much farther then them. My RR raises up 11 inches w/ a push of a button, stock. I haul people, gear, and my dogs. To say people in the US don't use 4x4s to haul things? Not only is the RR EXTREMELY capable off-road is the most comfortable highway cruiser I've ever owned.
I also see the Cayenne as more on par w/the X-5 in that it's a street vehicle that can go off road, not visa versa.
I look forward to hearing peoples opinions of both the Cayenne and the new Rover. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />
I also see the Cayenne as more on par w/the X-5 in that it's a street vehicle that can go off road, not visa versa.
I look forward to hearing peoples opinions of both the Cayenne and the new Rover. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />
09-26-2002 | 06:43 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Rob in WA:
<strong>I look forward to hearing peoples opinions of both the Cayenne and the new Rover. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Rob,
Thanks for the post. Please do not test-drive the '03 RR unless you want to be separated from your money. It's a seductive machine that does just about everything well.
<strong>I look forward to hearing peoples opinions of both the Cayenne and the new Rover. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Rob,
Thanks for the post. Please do not test-drive the '03 RR unless you want to be separated from your money. It's a seductive machine that does just about everything well.
09-28-2002 | 10:10 AM
#58
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From: Milton, MA
Finn,
Good question...
I did a google search and came up with a lot places overseas and down under, but this site looks like it has a lot of info <a href="http://www.e-kmi.com/" target="_blank">kart info</a>.
I do arrive & drive (indoor and outdoor) with 9 to 11 hp Hondas(we did a 6 hour enduro two weekends ago, and the difference between 1st and 2nd was 6 seconds, and the top 6 karts on the same lap ). Love to get in a 250 shifter - that must be the *****...
Have a great weekend...
Good question...
I did a google search and came up with a lot places overseas and down under, but this site looks like it has a lot of info <a href="http://www.e-kmi.com/" target="_blank">kart info</a>.
I do arrive & drive (indoor and outdoor) with 9 to 11 hp Hondas(we did a 6 hour enduro two weekends ago, and the difference between 1st and 2nd was 6 seconds, and the top 6 karts on the same lap
). Love to get in a 250 shifter - that must be the *****...Have a great weekend...
10-02-2002 | 09:47 AM
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From: Bahrain
The Cayenne is meant to replace the Audi S8 I have. I wanted to get the new shape A8 until I saw the second set of pics of the Cayenne and then I asked myself why not? The RS6 is a fabulous machine, and there's no reason why I shouldn't consider it as an alternative to the Cayenne if I test-drove it and didn't like it
The thing is that I happen to like the cayenne, it grew on me and, as I see it, it'll be the best in it's catagory. We can all argue back and forth about how it can't be called a real Porsche but I still remember all the other Porsche models that got called that. ( the 928,924,944,968,Boxster and 996 for example) Time will probably tell if Porsche was right and only then would people be right in slamming the Cayenne
It offers a chance for someone who wants a larger vehicle to park a Porsche in their garage that fits that need. I'm not abandoning the Porsche heritage and I'm not selling my targa. Both would be in the same garage
How about test driving the Cayenne, if any of you guys get the chance, and then we can have a more constructive debate. Until then I'll keep my mind open and my order on-line .
<img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
The thing is that I happen to like the cayenne, it grew on me and, as I see it, it'll be the best in it's catagory. We can all argue back and forth about how it can't be called a real Porsche but I still remember all the other Porsche models that got called that. ( the 928,924,944,968,Boxster and 996 for example) Time will probably tell if Porsche was right and only then would people be right in slamming the Cayenne
It offers a chance for someone who wants a larger vehicle to park a Porsche in their garage that fits that need. I'm not abandoning the Porsche heritage and I'm not selling my targa. Both would be in the same garage
How about test driving the Cayenne, if any of you guys get the chance, and then we can have a more constructive debate. Until then I'll keep my mind open and my order on-line .
<img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />