Deanger

Someone said something very provocative about the Cayenne and the Porsche brand to me, and in light of the long threads devoted to the potential damage to the brand by the building of the Cayenne, I thought I would paraphrase his statements here.

Essentially he said that car brand mystique is generated first and foremost by PRICE. Ferrari and Lambo are cars very very few people can afford. Likewise, Porsches are cars very few people can afford. They are more affordable than Ferrari, therefore less exotic. However compared to Buick, Toyota... Porsche is a very expensive car.

Enter not the Cayenne, but the BOXSTER. Once Porsche dipped into the low 40's, brand exclusivity was gone. And it is this, not SUV building, that marks the end of Porsche being considered an equal to a Ferrari.

The conclusion of the arguement is that if Porsche had built only the Cayenne Turbo -- no Cayenne S and no Boxster -- then the brand would have retained its cache.

Paul M

In that case, Porsche must have lost its exclusivity 25 years ago with the 924, continued with the 944 in the 80's and the 968 in the 90's... <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" />

Enzo's Nightmare

Does it really matter? Too many people on this board are insecure about their cars. I have read too many posts on the Boxster board from owners wondering if their cars are real Porsches or if they are cars for "girls". What difference does it make? Drive what you like. If you can't afford it, then find something else you like. If you like a car just because it is expensive, then you are simply a fool.

Weissach

I think that even the 944 was about 40K in the late 80s. But, 40k was alot of money back then...not any more.

laurence '97 C4S

"car brand mystique is generated first and foremost by PRICE"

Sorry, but I disagree with your basic premise. Price is not the driving force with brand mystique. Just off the top of my head, I would place styling, performance, exclusivity (which may or may not, be related to price), and heritage as greater determining factors than price. A Lotus Exige has got plenty of mystique and doesn't sport a Ferrari (or even Porsche) type price.

IMHO, the single biggest factor in Porsche's brand mystique is its historical racing endurance successes. Forget the Boxster, forget the Cayenne, the major dilution to the brand comes from Porsche's lack of high line current racing success (i.e. Audi's domination of Le Mans). <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

ked

924s came out at about 11K, I almost bought one (but went to Alfa for 10 years before I got a 356). 40K is still serious money, even if alot of mediocre cars are priced there. Price isn't the basis of the Porsche brand, except maybe telling us about "someone's" own values.

the relationship of racing & Porsche's image is (I think) a bit more complex than implied. Piech has played a big role in all this, plus the changing nature of top level prototype racing (golden age is history, kids - go club or marque racing). I like Porsche's auto design tradition, engineering creativity (yes, race-influenced) & road-going GTs, not only the big-budget racing efforts.

andyrew

maybe you mean in the 70's with the 914? but hey its only a VW right?

Bins

All well and good but both companies have their own circumstances. Ferrari are owned by Fiat, who can take the hit.
It will be more interesting when Ferrari go public and they are on a level playing field.
Porsche are independent and cannot afford to play price games.

M758

Price has little to do with what the real enthusiausts think about Porsche and what makes a car a Porsche.

Until now Porsche has been about sports cars and racing. These have been the core. The fact that these cars may cost big dollars has really nothing to do with core of Porsche.

Porsche has been always about providing a high quality sports car in a given car size and engine size class. Expense and luxury had always taken a back seat.

Why does the GT2 cost $170k... Hmm proably because 70% of that because that kind of performance cost that much. Sure there proably is a mark-up based on what the market will bear, but most of it because the performance level that the car provides costs that much to develop and build.

Honesltly Cost and Price are traditional afterthoughts for Porsche.

If excusivity results then so be it.

Bob S. 1984 Silver

It is all about price and mystique. The "average" person does not know what potential is under the hood of a Porsche. I used to have a 924 which looked great..new paint, upholstry, etc. Lotsa love in that one. My wife and I went to get ice cream one warm night and were sitting on a curb next to the car enjoyning the evening and each other's company. Another couple next to us. The husband said to hos wife "sotto voce"..."Don't even talk to them; all Porsche owners are snobs."

Porsche crest to the majority = expen$ive and fa$t. Only the privileged few fight about what is and is not a "real Porsche".

And, IMHO, Porsche (rightly so, good economics) cashes in on this "mystique" by charging for these cars far more than it takes to design and build them. That makes the marque desirable to the masses and keeps sales going. The worst thing Porsche could do would be to design and build a 20k car that would match the new Neon v6 in performance.

If you own a 912, 914, 924, 944, and are "challenged" at the stoplight Grand Prix, suppress the urge to prove you have a potential leadsled. The other guy will never know, and he will drive away saying to himself..."I wonder...I wonder...."

Better to keep you mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.....

Cheers!!

Deanger

Just want to clarify: first post was NOT my belief, merely posted because there had been much discussion as to the damage the Cayenne was doing to "Porsche mystique"...

My belief, mentioned elsewhere, is that as long as the vehicle is superior in performance and function to everything else out there, it will not harm the mystique.

Mike Buck

[quote]Originally posted by Deanger:
<strong>
My belief, mentioned elsewhere, is that as long as the vehicle is superior in performance and function to everything else out there, it will not harm the mystique.</strong><hr></blockquote>

thats a pretty tall order . . .

John..

Here is my opinion:

Porsche wasoriginally designed as a driver's car, made from VW components.

With the 911 came increased performance and great build quality.

The cars were still driver's cars.

Enter the 914, 924, 944 and 928 series, a bit more refinement but still a driver's car, some upscale image going on here though.

The last true driver's car Porsche made was the 993, period. If you guys seriously think the 944, 928 and the like were mistakes, well you should look harder. Without them, your lovely 911 would have died. I'll take a tight 944 on any back road over a similar year 911.

The whole brand image for Porsche has changed drastically in the last 10 years, most specifically since the introduction of the Boxster.

The new cars lack build quality, not to mention exclusivity. I'm always amazed at how people can market something that is obviously inferior to what it used to be and still sell them like hotcakes. Don't get me wrong, they do perform very well and are wonderful cars, but that aren't what they used to be. Let's not mention how saturated the used car market will be for Porsches in the next 5 years.

The vast majority of new first time Porsche owners have made the purchase because of the Badge, just like a guy who chooses the ES300 instead of the Camry.

I think Porsche had to make these changes to survive, but the cars have gone mainstream, are way too common and have no exclusivity anymore. Why buy the Cayenne whan you can get the VW version for thousands less? I just don't understand it.

I get tired of seeing a Boxster or a 996 10 times a day. Those are cars for the masses now. Easy to buy, easy to drive, trade it in in two years for a new one is the mentality these days.

brickerson

[quote]Originally posted by John:
<strong>


The whole brand image for Porsche has changed drastically in the last 10 years, most specifically since the introduction of the Boxster.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's pretty funny coming from a 944 (Porsche's biggest selling car prior to the Boxster) driver.

The Box is a two-seat, mid-engined roadster with a Porsche engine, not unlike 356/1. The 944 is a 2+2 hatchback with an Audi engine, not unlike a '79 Quattro.

I know which one I'd rather have. In fact, that's why I have it.

Brian ('01 2.7 Boxster)

DISCLAIMER: I actually like the 944. But I'm not going to sit idly by while somebody insults MY car.
<img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

adrial

[quote]Originally posted by brickerson:
<strong>

That's pretty funny coming from a 944 (Porsche's biggest selling car prior to the Boxster) driver.

The Box is a two-seat, mid-engined roadster with a Porsche engine, not unlike 356/1. The 944 is a 2+2 hatchback with an Audi engine, not unlike a '79 Quattro.

I know which one I'd rather have. In fact, that's why I have it.

Brian ('01 2.7 Boxster)

DISCLAIMER: I actually like the 944. But I'm not going to sit idly by while somebody insults MY car.
<img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

For someone that likes the 944 you dont know much about it.

The 944 and 944 turbo engines are 100% Porsche design and build.

The 924 engine on the other hand...is audi I believe.

My mom's 00 986 with 13k miles creaks horribly...build quality? I dont see much of it! Supposedly it can be fixed with some lubing of seals and whatnot, but for how long??