Cayenne S vs. X5 4.4
07-11-2003, 11:56 PM
#46
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Blah, Blah, Blah.....
The X5, Lexis 450 SUV, the Hyundi SUV, Honda SUV... are listed under the same catagory.
Cars with no *****.
Now 7000lb+ tow capacity, 130 mph - now thats a SUV.
Lest we forget: the U stands for utility (and that doesn't include trips to Safeway).
C & T Reg rule so far.
The X5, Lexis 450 SUV, the Hyundi SUV, Honda SUV... are listed under the same catagory.
Cars with no *****.
Now 7000lb+ tow capacity, 130 mph - now thats a SUV.
Lest we forget: the U stands for utility (and that doesn't include trips to Safeway).
C & T Reg rule so far.
07-12-2003, 12:40 AM
#47
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Jim Lamb:
<strong>My previous vehicles include an E39 M5 and a 996 C2 coupe. I do not consider myself to be paricularly biased towards either marque.
So, with that out of the way, let's look at some numbers. The base price of the X5 4.4 (as the 4.6 is being discontinued) is US$49,950. Base price of the Cayenne S is $55,900. For the math-challenged that's a difference of US$5,950 (not $10K as previously cited).
BMW X5 4.4 does 0-60 in 7.5 sec, Cayenne in 7.2 sec. Curb weight of the X5 is 4,824 lbs vs. 4,949 for the Cayenne (a whopping 125 lb difference). Engine output is 290 hp at 5,400 RPM for the X5, 340 hp at 6,000 RPM for the Cayenne.
Ground clearance for the X5 is 7.1" vs. 8.54" for the Cayenne with steel springs (X5 doesn't offer air suspension). Maximum cargo capacity for the X5 is 54 cu. ft., 63 cu. ft. for the Cayenne. Max towing capacity is 6,000 lbs for the X5, 7,716 lbs for the Cayenne.
I haven't actually seen any slalom tests comparing the X5 to the Cayenne (let alone a single test under similar conditions with identical tires, etc.) but I would be happy to read them if someone can provide a link. Having driven both, I find it unlikely that the X5 would outperform the Cayenne in any objective test.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Unfortunately, as you may know already, Porsche's "curb weight" is always much lower than its actual weight. I agree with all your math and pricing etc, but, here is my take. Almost every sticker price of a Cayenne S I have seen is $64-66k. Most heavily equipped X5's come in at $9-10k!!! less. Porsche and Bmw claims of 0-62 are always off. Whereas BMW may post slow numbers when the car is tested it is a different story. It seems to be the case with all BMW's, there test numbers released from BMW (except M cars) are always much slower than when the mags test them. This I am sure is the case with the Cayenne as well, so its hard to go off factory performance numbers because who knows which manufacturer is closer to the true number?? The Cayenne feels faster than 7.2 to me. Saw two road tests of X5 4.4 sport one tested it at 6.7 sec and the other 6.8 sec to 60. Slaloms better than Cayenne trubo as was braking, I will locate the Mags. And Jim, they are not tested in the same conditions so as you said that may also have an effect. 4.6is two test both 6.2sec to 60. Regarding 125 lbs weight difference, I thought the same thing until I saw the road test from autoweek and car and driver-- typical Caynennes and their as tested weight is much higher. The Cayenne Turbo tested by Car and Driver weighed 5800lbs thats 1000lbs more than the X5. Although I am sure the Cayenne S must at least be a little lighter. And your final point, about hp, you negleted to mention the torque, X5 322, Cayenne 310. Again hate to repeat but I feel the need, 2004 X5 6 speed auto trans, performance similar to 4.6is, 330hp, 335lb/ft and lighter than the Cayenne. I think when this new X5 comes out it will be an excellent vehicle that will do well in these types of test. Guess we'll have to wait and see. BTW, I will dig up my old mag articles and find you a test.
The closest test I could find off hand was the Cayenne Turbo taking 6 feet longer than the 4.6is to brake and posting a slower slalom time. And this is the Cayenne Turbo with its 6 piston calipers and $90k+ price. Maybe I am missing something but, if the Cayenne Turbo loses in two of 4 critical performance tests to the 4.6is wouldn't that suggest the Cayenne S would get waxed by the 4.6is which based on the latest test would win all 4 performance categories. Who know maybe I am wrong?? Anyway, my intention was never to bash you Cayenne faithfull. Just to give my take on the question Cayennne VS X5. I feel strongly about cars and sometimes my entusiasm gets the best of me. Happy motoring.
-Lou
*****just edited my post as I found out some additional info****************
Cayenne turbo in C&D test weighed 5724 pounds.(could the S weigh 1000 lbs less than the turbo?)It pulled .82 on the 300ft skidpad with 19inch rims. It took 170 feet to stop from 70mph. Just as a note a previous test showed the X5 3.0 matched the turbo on the skidpad, X5 4.6is stopped in 164 feet from 70, pulled a .85 on skidpad and obviously was much slower in acceleration than the turbo. I would imagine handling/braking numbers for 4.4 i sport would be similar to the 4.6 as it has the exact same set-up(sport package) although runs on 19inch rims with 285 rears versus 20on 4.6 with 315 rears. Hope that helps.
-Lou
<strong>My previous vehicles include an E39 M5 and a 996 C2 coupe. I do not consider myself to be paricularly biased towards either marque.
So, with that out of the way, let's look at some numbers. The base price of the X5 4.4 (as the 4.6 is being discontinued) is US$49,950. Base price of the Cayenne S is $55,900. For the math-challenged that's a difference of US$5,950 (not $10K as previously cited).
BMW X5 4.4 does 0-60 in 7.5 sec, Cayenne in 7.2 sec. Curb weight of the X5 is 4,824 lbs vs. 4,949 for the Cayenne (a whopping 125 lb difference). Engine output is 290 hp at 5,400 RPM for the X5, 340 hp at 6,000 RPM for the Cayenne.
Ground clearance for the X5 is 7.1" vs. 8.54" for the Cayenne with steel springs (X5 doesn't offer air suspension). Maximum cargo capacity for the X5 is 54 cu. ft., 63 cu. ft. for the Cayenne. Max towing capacity is 6,000 lbs for the X5, 7,716 lbs for the Cayenne.
I haven't actually seen any slalom tests comparing the X5 to the Cayenne (let alone a single test under similar conditions with identical tires, etc.) but I would be happy to read them if someone can provide a link. Having driven both, I find it unlikely that the X5 would outperform the Cayenne in any objective test.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Unfortunately, as you may know already, Porsche's "curb weight" is always much lower than its actual weight. I agree with all your math and pricing etc, but, here is my take. Almost every sticker price of a Cayenne S I have seen is $64-66k. Most heavily equipped X5's come in at $9-10k!!! less. Porsche and Bmw claims of 0-62 are always off. Whereas BMW may post slow numbers when the car is tested it is a different story. It seems to be the case with all BMW's, there test numbers released from BMW (except M cars) are always much slower than when the mags test them. This I am sure is the case with the Cayenne as well, so its hard to go off factory performance numbers because who knows which manufacturer is closer to the true number?? The Cayenne feels faster than 7.2 to me. Saw two road tests of X5 4.4 sport one tested it at 6.7 sec and the other 6.8 sec to 60. Slaloms better than Cayenne trubo as was braking, I will locate the Mags. And Jim, they are not tested in the same conditions so as you said that may also have an effect. 4.6is two test both 6.2sec to 60. Regarding 125 lbs weight difference, I thought the same thing until I saw the road test from autoweek and car and driver-- typical Caynennes and their as tested weight is much higher. The Cayenne Turbo tested by Car and Driver weighed 5800lbs thats 1000lbs more than the X5. Although I am sure the Cayenne S must at least be a little lighter. And your final point, about hp, you negleted to mention the torque, X5 322, Cayenne 310. Again hate to repeat but I feel the need, 2004 X5 6 speed auto trans, performance similar to 4.6is, 330hp, 335lb/ft and lighter than the Cayenne. I think when this new X5 comes out it will be an excellent vehicle that will do well in these types of test. Guess we'll have to wait and see. BTW, I will dig up my old mag articles and find you a test.
The closest test I could find off hand was the Cayenne Turbo taking 6 feet longer than the 4.6is to brake and posting a slower slalom time. And this is the Cayenne Turbo with its 6 piston calipers and $90k+ price. Maybe I am missing something but, if the Cayenne Turbo loses in two of 4 critical performance tests to the 4.6is wouldn't that suggest the Cayenne S would get waxed by the 4.6is which based on the latest test would win all 4 performance categories. Who know maybe I am wrong?? Anyway, my intention was never to bash you Cayenne faithfull. Just to give my take on the question Cayennne VS X5. I feel strongly about cars and sometimes my entusiasm gets the best of me. Happy motoring.
-Lou
*****just edited my post as I found out some additional info****************
Cayenne turbo in C&D test weighed 5724 pounds.(could the S weigh 1000 lbs less than the turbo?)It pulled .82 on the 300ft skidpad with 19inch rims. It took 170 feet to stop from 70mph. Just as a note a previous test showed the X5 3.0 matched the turbo on the skidpad, X5 4.6is stopped in 164 feet from 70, pulled a .85 on skidpad and obviously was much slower in acceleration than the turbo. I would imagine handling/braking numbers for 4.4 i sport would be similar to the 4.6 as it has the exact same set-up(sport package) although runs on 19inch rims with 285 rears versus 20on 4.6 with 315 rears. Hope that helps.
-Lou
07-12-2003, 12:50 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by mudman2:
<strong>Sorry Lou I disagree, you are an arrogant bigot, get a life somewhere where lack of objectivity and masses of ego are normal.
Isn't it time you got married settled down on a budget and began to make practical decisions instead of blurting out verbal @$@%^$
Apologies to the board for this posting, but this type of person ! honestly how are they raised.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">What are you talking about? A bigot, get married? What does that have to do with anything. A budget!! that's a good one. I really don't need to budget and I am not trying to be arrogant. I answered a question asked to the best of my ability, if you don't like it f-off! I don't really care, nobody else seems to have a problem. If you disagree with me fine, you're entitled. Lack of objectivity?? I have a differing opinion from yours so I am not objective. I really take offense to your words. So what if I don't agree with you should I just keep my opinion to myself? Well sorry buddy won't do that. Worry about raising your own kids before you comment on my upbringing, you don't know a thing about me. You simply judged my entire being based on a differing opinion. Really pisses me off when people take personal attacks for no reason other than they cannot have a civilized conversation. You have something else you would like to say to me directly, PM me or maybe we can arrange to meet somewhere face to face, we can talk about my poor upbring where its gotten me and what I learned. BTW keep your bull**** "life lessons" to yourself I certainly don't need advise from a guy like you
<strong>Sorry Lou I disagree, you are an arrogant bigot, get a life somewhere where lack of objectivity and masses of ego are normal.
Isn't it time you got married settled down on a budget and began to make practical decisions instead of blurting out verbal @$@%^$
Apologies to the board for this posting, but this type of person ! honestly how are they raised.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">What are you talking about? A bigot, get married? What does that have to do with anything. A budget!! that's a good one. I really don't need to budget and I am not trying to be arrogant. I answered a question asked to the best of my ability, if you don't like it f-off! I don't really care, nobody else seems to have a problem. If you disagree with me fine, you're entitled. Lack of objectivity?? I have a differing opinion from yours so I am not objective. I really take offense to your words. So what if I don't agree with you should I just keep my opinion to myself? Well sorry buddy won't do that. Worry about raising your own kids before you comment on my upbringing, you don't know a thing about me. You simply judged my entire being based on a differing opinion. Really pisses me off when people take personal attacks for no reason other than they cannot have a civilized conversation. You have something else you would like to say to me directly, PM me or maybe we can arrange to meet somewhere face to face, we can talk about my poor upbring where its gotten me and what I learned. BTW keep your bull**** "life lessons" to yourself I certainly don't need advise from a guy like you
07-12-2003, 02:02 AM
#49
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Hehehe, he challenging him to a fight. I will be happy to hold the Rolexs before you guys mix it up. Then I could sue the other for the one who lost. The watch would work as a nice retainer. BMW bites and is for wanna bes who cannot afford what they really want. Now dem some fighten words, heh. JK, BTW, before LSM and crew post another novel about BMW not biting.
07-12-2003, 09:49 AM
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Actually, I'd really like a Cayenne Turbo but if it depreciates like every other Porsche since the 993 then I would be better off burning my money abd driving a Tahoe.
I think Porsche made the best car in the world in the 993 but I won't blindly drop $65K in cash until I am convinced that they did the same with the Cayenne....and if they did, why are 2 dealers offering me $1000 over invoice?
I've read the reports and both the X5 and the Cayenne are neck and neck.....I was hoping to get some "real world" info from someone that wasn't brand loyal.
Did I come to the wrong place for that?
I think Porsche made the best car in the world in the 993 but I won't blindly drop $65K in cash until I am convinced that they did the same with the Cayenne....and if they did, why are 2 dealers offering me $1000 over invoice?
I've read the reports and both the X5 and the Cayenne are neck and neck.....I was hoping to get some "real world" info from someone that wasn't brand loyal.
Did I come to the wrong place for that?
07-12-2003, 10:09 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Doug H:
<strong>Hehehe, he challenging him to a fight. I will be happy to hold the Rolexs before you guys mix it up. Then I could sue the other for the one who lost. The watch would work as a nice retainer. BMW bites and is for wanna bes who cannot afford what they really want. Now dem some fighten words, heh. JK, BTW, before LSM and crew post another novel about BMW not biting.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Thanks for your take Doug. Actually made me laugh. This has gotten way to serious, its just when I get called out and personally attacked, I take offence. Hopefully we can move on and have a meaniful discussion from here on out. Take care <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> This has gotten to be a rather heated discussion and I understand why some people may not like my comments. I just hope you understand, I have no agenda, no real brand loyalty although I do love Porsches and BMWs just a little more than the other marques. My purpose on this discussion was never to demean anyone or sound arrogant. My point was that I have driven a lot of different cars and feel I have usefull info from time to time. I only brught up the point about my age and marital status, not to offend anyone but to give prespective as to where my answers are coming from.
-Lou
-Lou
<strong>Hehehe, he challenging him to a fight. I will be happy to hold the Rolexs before you guys mix it up. Then I could sue the other for the one who lost. The watch would work as a nice retainer. BMW bites and is for wanna bes who cannot afford what they really want. Now dem some fighten words, heh. JK, BTW, before LSM and crew post another novel about BMW not biting.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Thanks for your take Doug. Actually made me laugh. This has gotten way to serious, its just when I get called out and personally attacked, I take offence. Hopefully we can move on and have a meaniful discussion from here on out. Take care <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> This has gotten to be a rather heated discussion and I understand why some people may not like my comments. I just hope you understand, I have no agenda, no real brand loyalty although I do love Porsches and BMWs just a little more than the other marques. My purpose on this discussion was never to demean anyone or sound arrogant. My point was that I have driven a lot of different cars and feel I have usefull info from time to time. I only brught up the point about my age and marital status, not to offend anyone but to give prespective as to where my answers are coming from.
-Lou
-Lou
07-12-2003, 10:12 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by DC from Cape Cod:
<strong>Actually, I'd really like a Cayenne Turbo but if it depreciates like every other Porsche since the 993 then I would be better off burning my money abd driving a Tahoe.
I think Porsche made the best car in the world in the 993 but I won't blindly drop $65K in cash until I am convinced that they did the same with the Cayenne....and if they did, why are 2 dealers offering me $1000 over invoice?
I've read the reports and both the X5 and the Cayenne are neck and neck.....I was hoping to get some "real world" info from someone that wasn't brand loyal.
Did I come to the wrong place for that?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I guess maybe you have. Some people have taken issue with my differing opinion.
-Lou
<strong>Actually, I'd really like a Cayenne Turbo but if it depreciates like every other Porsche since the 993 then I would be better off burning my money abd driving a Tahoe.
I think Porsche made the best car in the world in the 993 but I won't blindly drop $65K in cash until I am convinced that they did the same with the Cayenne....and if they did, why are 2 dealers offering me $1000 over invoice?
I've read the reports and both the X5 and the Cayenne are neck and neck.....I was hoping to get some "real world" info from someone that wasn't brand loyal.
Did I come to the wrong place for that?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I guess maybe you have. Some people have taken issue with my differing opinion.
-Lou
07-12-2003, 10:23 AM
#53
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I appreciate your opinion and I am glad you posted it. $65K in after-tax dollars is a decent amount of cash and I won't toss it blindly into a vehicle without doing a bit of homework.
The numbers on these two vehicles are very close...if they were not, this thread never would have made it to be 3 pages long.
The supporters of each vehicle seem to do so on the basis of the intangibles...rather than the absolute numbers...and that is what I am looking for.
I appreciate everyone's support.
The numbers on these two vehicles are very close...if they were not, this thread never would have made it to be 3 pages long.
The supporters of each vehicle seem to do so on the basis of the intangibles...rather than the absolute numbers...and that is what I am looking for.
I appreciate everyone's support.
07-12-2003, 10:40 AM
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For anyone who would like to, check out <a href="http://www.autoweek.com." target="_blank">www.autoweek.com.</a> This is not a full test, just a "drivers log" on the Cayenne turbo.
-Lou
-Lou
07-12-2003, 11:41 AM
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Wow, I thought Jerry Springer was only on TV and radio. The original question was about what folks thought of comparing the X5 and Cayenne. What I have been reading has more to do with genetics, child rearing, marriage counseling and fiscal responsibility.
LSM, you started most of this crap with your, "I don't really want to start a fight... but I will". You are not much of a poker player are you? Starting your flame with the statement that the X5 is the best SAV, give us a break, it may be a great SAV, but it is nowhere near as capable as the Cayenne, which is an SUV, the operative term being "utility", the X5 simply does not offer the same broad based utility as the Cayenne. Some people need utli
I considered both, drove them pretty extensively, and settled on the Cayenne for my needs. I was put off by the stories that many people posted here describing the reliability and poor service issues that they had with their X5s. I did not depend on the automotive press to convince me which vehicle worked best for me. That is not where I look for my "facts". You must be one of those guys that believes everything they read in the newspaper.
Face it LSM, you screwed up with your original post, stating your bias (masquerading as your opinion), and you got called on it, hope you enjoyed the ride, I know that I did!!
LSM, you started most of this crap with your, "I don't really want to start a fight... but I will". You are not much of a poker player are you? Starting your flame with the statement that the X5 is the best SAV, give us a break, it may be a great SAV, but it is nowhere near as capable as the Cayenne, which is an SUV, the operative term being "utility", the X5 simply does not offer the same broad based utility as the Cayenne. Some people need utli
I considered both, drove them pretty extensively, and settled on the Cayenne for my needs. I was put off by the stories that many people posted here describing the reliability and poor service issues that they had with their X5s. I did not depend on the automotive press to convince me which vehicle worked best for me. That is not where I look for my "facts". You must be one of those guys that believes everything they read in the newspaper.
Face it LSM, you screwed up with your original post, stating your bias (masquerading as your opinion), and you got called on it, hope you enjoyed the ride, I know that I did!!
07-12-2003, 03:29 PM
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Please let's move on; LSM offred an olive branch lets respect that.
I think the real issue is the Utility aspect between the vehicles.
I don't think the Pepper should be judged simply as a sedan. P could have made a lighter sedan added 8" of height like BMW and called it a sport Bullsh*t vehicle and had their marketing dept start a new class of sbv's.
P/VW gave up some sedan qualities to make an outstanding carriage for an SUV. To be fair, if you compare both you would have to put a tow hitch on the X5 and let it tow 5500lb (7000) and stop, then include that in your evaluation.
The auto world is full of performance 4dr sedans and argueably BMW is the best. The X5 isn't in the same league as the C/treg when considering all the capabilities.
I think the real issue is the Utility aspect between the vehicles.
I don't think the Pepper should be judged simply as a sedan. P could have made a lighter sedan added 8" of height like BMW and called it a sport Bullsh*t vehicle and had their marketing dept start a new class of sbv's.
P/VW gave up some sedan qualities to make an outstanding carriage for an SUV. To be fair, if you compare both you would have to put a tow hitch on the X5 and let it tow 5500lb (7000) and stop, then include that in your evaluation.
The auto world is full of performance 4dr sedans and argueably BMW is the best. The X5 isn't in the same league as the C/treg when considering all the capabilities.
07-12-2003, 04:35 PM
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Help me out here....how is the C in a different league than the X5?
The numbers are almost identical. The build quality on the current X5's is very good...the problems seem to be over.
Given that I don't need to carry stuff (we have another larger SUV) or tow stuff (see previous) or go off-road (I have a built Jeep) and I am only doing this for the write-off....does this effect your thoughts?
Assume the C won't have air as almost no models in stock do.
Side question - how much better is the Turbo?
The numbers are almost identical. The build quality on the current X5's is very good...the problems seem to be over.
Given that I don't need to carry stuff (we have another larger SUV) or tow stuff (see previous) or go off-road (I have a built Jeep) and I am only doing this for the write-off....does this effect your thoughts?
Assume the C won't have air as almost no models in stock do.
Side question - how much better is the Turbo?
07-12-2003, 04:54 PM
#60
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FYI My S has air so thats not true, almost true yes.
The X5 is a 5 series sedan with visability (SAV) street car
The C is a Truck with style. Go anywhere anytime (SUV)
Comparing the 2 is futile
The turbo is an S with S options standard and a motor. Its got more of everything. Transmission frame and supension is common to S with air. Turbo always has air.
Again comparing the 2 is futile they are not for the same purpose.
You have to consider both (with others) when trying to decide because of "apparent genre". You quickly rule out the X once the facts becomes apparent.
The X5 is a 5 series sedan with visability (SAV) street car
The C is a Truck with style. Go anywhere anytime (SUV)
Comparing the 2 is futile
The turbo is an S with S options standard and a motor. Its got more of everything. Transmission frame and supension is common to S with air. Turbo always has air.
Again comparing the 2 is futile they are not for the same purpose.
You have to consider both (with others) when trying to decide because of "apparent genre". You quickly rule out the X once the facts becomes apparent.