Buying Cayenne S with plans for performance upgrades?
03-31-2003, 12:25 AM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Charlotesville, VA
Posts: 253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Buying Cayenne S with plans for performance upgrades?
I'm guessing there will be engine upgrades available from tuners in the future -- would it make sense to buy a Cayenne S and plan for those upgrades later, or a better idea to just get a Turbo now? Turbo has so many options standard that it seems like it would always be a better car unless you got a loaded S (level control, steering assist etc).
Any advice or opinions?
Any advice or opinions?
03-31-2003, 01:35 AM
#2
I did some price comparison work to see what was making up the giant gap between S and Turbo. It turns out; not much. Just the Turbo engine itself, really. I'll email you my numbers if you like.
Of the $33K difference, about half goes to the Turbo engine. In 996 terms, that would be the bargain of the century -- but it's ludicrous to even begin to draw lines of reason between real costs and retail costs. As everyone has no doubted observed, the R&D costs plus capital equipment costs to deliver the Cayenne to market must be several multiples of the investment in the 996.
There's two groups of things consider when comparing the S and Turbo prices:
* the optional equipment cost to bring the S up to Turbo spec
* the lower price on optional equipment for the Turbo
The first point is obvious, but some stuff is too fiddly to completely work out (aluminium sport trim versus aluminum standard trim etc.) all of which might add up to as much as say $5000 and there's no way to get the bigger nose or ridges in the hood or the double tail pipes and other cosmetic differentiators, so the comparison only goes to withing a few thou of accuracy.
The second point is a little more subtle. If you check the order guide (www.porsche.com) you'll see the S gets some options at a lower price than the S. If you add up all these price breaks and add it to the effective value of the Turbo, the two cars start to get pretty close.
One critical factor makes this comparison logical -- the Turbo and the S are identical. By this, I mean the suspension geometry, brakes and transmission are identical. With the optional steering and suspension, so is the chassis.
It's kind of illogical, but I am annoyed that the Cayenne Turbo lacks equipment that's standard in cars less than half it's price. Perhaps the Cayenne Turbo should be a $120K car and have all these options as delete options.
Finally, I'd say it's all moot. If your budget is around $70K, there's the decision made for you. If your budget is over $100K, then I recommend you drive the Turbo as you would wish to drive it if you owned it. I did this and concluded the thing wasn't for me.
Given the S is the same as the Turbo -- give or take the engine mods and presumably some software in the suspension -- I am looking forward to <a href="http://www.turboperformance.com" target="_blank">www.turboperformance.com</a> or <a href="http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com" target="_blank">www.whipplesuperchargers.com</a> delivering a bolt-on blower kit. These kits usually deliver close to 50% gains in power and torque. Personally, I greatly prefer supercharged engines over turbocharged engines. The idea of a 340hp Cayenne S engine becoming a 500hp Cayenne SS (that second "S" is for Supercharged ... clever, eh?) anyway a 500hp Cayenne is more compelling to me than the Turbo. Plus, the kit will cost under $10,000.
If the Cayenne S versus the Cayenne Turbo, was more like the Boxster versus the Boxster S (different engine, transmission and suspension) then this whole idea would be absurd. But the C-S and the C-T are the same roller.
Anyway, these after-market mods will come slowly. First, the "aesthetic" companies (Gemballa, Techart et al) will deliver the make-over stuff ... we're already seeing bizarre leather schemes and giant wheels etc.
Cheers,
Of the $33K difference, about half goes to the Turbo engine. In 996 terms, that would be the bargain of the century -- but it's ludicrous to even begin to draw lines of reason between real costs and retail costs. As everyone has no doubted observed, the R&D costs plus capital equipment costs to deliver the Cayenne to market must be several multiples of the investment in the 996.
There's two groups of things consider when comparing the S and Turbo prices:
* the optional equipment cost to bring the S up to Turbo spec
* the lower price on optional equipment for the Turbo
The first point is obvious, but some stuff is too fiddly to completely work out (aluminium sport trim versus aluminum standard trim etc.) all of which might add up to as much as say $5000 and there's no way to get the bigger nose or ridges in the hood or the double tail pipes and other cosmetic differentiators, so the comparison only goes to withing a few thou of accuracy.
The second point is a little more subtle. If you check the order guide (www.porsche.com) you'll see the S gets some options at a lower price than the S. If you add up all these price breaks and add it to the effective value of the Turbo, the two cars start to get pretty close.
One critical factor makes this comparison logical -- the Turbo and the S are identical. By this, I mean the suspension geometry, brakes and transmission are identical. With the optional steering and suspension, so is the chassis.
It's kind of illogical, but I am annoyed that the Cayenne Turbo lacks equipment that's standard in cars less than half it's price. Perhaps the Cayenne Turbo should be a $120K car and have all these options as delete options.
Finally, I'd say it's all moot. If your budget is around $70K, there's the decision made for you. If your budget is over $100K, then I recommend you drive the Turbo as you would wish to drive it if you owned it. I did this and concluded the thing wasn't for me.
Given the S is the same as the Turbo -- give or take the engine mods and presumably some software in the suspension -- I am looking forward to <a href="http://www.turboperformance.com" target="_blank">www.turboperformance.com</a> or <a href="http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com" target="_blank">www.whipplesuperchargers.com</a> delivering a bolt-on blower kit. These kits usually deliver close to 50% gains in power and torque. Personally, I greatly prefer supercharged engines over turbocharged engines. The idea of a 340hp Cayenne S engine becoming a 500hp Cayenne SS (that second "S" is for Supercharged ... clever, eh?) anyway a 500hp Cayenne is more compelling to me than the Turbo. Plus, the kit will cost under $10,000.
If the Cayenne S versus the Cayenne Turbo, was more like the Boxster versus the Boxster S (different engine, transmission and suspension) then this whole idea would be absurd. But the C-S and the C-T are the same roller.
Anyway, these after-market mods will come slowly. First, the "aesthetic" companies (Gemballa, Techart et al) will deliver the make-over stuff ... we're already seeing bizarre leather schemes and giant wheels etc.
Cheers,
03-31-2003, 01:36 AM
#3
Racer
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Agoura Hills
Posts: 400
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
having thouroughly driven an S and a Turbo. I really suggestthat you forget about the S and get the Turbo. I just rode in a turbo with well over 500 HP and that was just a software enhancement. For a 5,000 lb brick on wheels. The Performance was impressive. the S left alot to be desired
03-31-2003, 04:02 AM
#4
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
What will be interesting to me is as a 996 owner, I know that $18K in options will be worth maybe $2-4K in 3-4 years when its time to sell. So with that in mind what will a fully loaded S with a MSRP of $74k be worth in 3 to 4 years? Now take your TT for $20k more with all the bells & whistles, will that be worth more in 3-4 years or shall we expect a $30K loss on both for that period of time. My guess is in 3-4 years will have the guys looking at brand new S or a good condition TT for about the same cost. Either way I know these are not investments, but my problem was choosing between $18k in options or a $95k SUV..when I think about it, I know its not needed, but then what the heck you only live once and were all here for a short while so why not enjoy it all while you can!! My dealer was nice enough to not take a deposit and ordered me a May build 2004 Black on Black TT.... with a nice discount...
One thing to think about, you add a Super Charger to that engine, and I would think you can kiss your warranty goodbye
But who knows Whipple Supercharger is in my home town, can the supercharge my TT <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />
One thing to think about, you add a Super Charger to that engine, and I would think you can kiss your warranty goodbye
But who knows Whipple Supercharger is in my home town, can the supercharge my TT <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />
03-31-2003, 09:59 AM
#5
Instructor
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Isle of Palms, SC
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sure a relatively base model Turbo will hold its value a little better than a well optioned S. The question becomes, do you want to fork over the additional money up front in order to reduce your future loss (maybe more as a percentage of purchase price than absolute dollars).
I tried this line of reasoning with my wife when I bought my C2. I originally negotiated a very favorable deal on a 911 Turbo they had in stock. Clearly it would have held its value a bit better than my C2, but this argument just didn't fly with my better half. Your mileage may vary.
I tried this line of reasoning with my wife when I bought my C2. I originally negotiated a very favorable deal on a 911 Turbo they had in stock. Clearly it would have held its value a bit better than my C2, but this argument just didn't fly with my better half. Your mileage may vary.
03-31-2003, 03:48 PM
#6
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Kevin M.:
<strong>What will be interesting to me is as a 996 owner, I know that $18K in options will be worth maybe $2-4K in 3-4 years when its time to sell. So with that in mind what will a fully loaded S with a MSRP of $74k be worth in 3 to 4 years? Now take your TT for $20k more with all the bells & whistles, will that be worth more in 3-4 years or shall we expect a $30K loss on both for that period of time. [snip]</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I don't really follow your thinking but I absolutely agree that depreciation is the real cost of owning a car. And, as stated by myself and others in this forum, there's reason to suppose the Turbo will depreciate less than a "loaded" S. As you point out with the 996 -- the worst cases of depreciation occur with cars laden with tens of thousands of dollars in options that really have no value in resale.
Anyway. I don't think Whipple does much except GM V8s, some larger Ford engines and a few super expensive off-shore race engines. I've asked them (and all the other after-market blower-kit companies to offer something for the Cayenne S.)
Sure, you're kissing your warranty goodbye (at least the engine and drive-train) if you bolt on a blower, but that's the strength of a Porsche, so I'm not perturbed. Anyway, I'll drive out the warranty in miles under two years. The rest of the warranty is still in force (electrics, body, trim, suspension etc.) so I'm willing to do it.
Of course, the blower kill will cost $5K (at least) maybe $10K if they get greedy for the Porsche brand customer's wallets, plus labour and all that will add exactly zero to resale value (for all intents and purposes) so I guess I'm more willing to take a base S, eat the depreciation over say three years (maybe 60%) and write off the $5K+ for the blower.
Then again, the cachet and "out of the box, ready, no waiting, no warranty worries" appeal of the Turbo combined with the prospect of easy software improvements, well, that's appealing too.
Of course, of course,
if you so much as sniff at the engine management programming, you'll void the warranty on the Turbo, which could be a very expensive grenade if it went into an overboost or lean-out condition. I really would hesitate until others have walked that road.
I'm keen to see early reports of increases confirmed with dyno runs and quarter mile runs. It's possible to firm up the shifts on a tranny and make a car feel stronger and faster. It's possible to ask for a little more boost or bring the boost on more abruptly and make an engine exhibit more power and torque that doesn't translate into useful performance. It will take a guru to design a complete product to unleash the Turbo. Fascinating stuff.
<strong>What will be interesting to me is as a 996 owner, I know that $18K in options will be worth maybe $2-4K in 3-4 years when its time to sell. So with that in mind what will a fully loaded S with a MSRP of $74k be worth in 3 to 4 years? Now take your TT for $20k more with all the bells & whistles, will that be worth more in 3-4 years or shall we expect a $30K loss on both for that period of time. [snip]</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I don't really follow your thinking but I absolutely agree that depreciation is the real cost of owning a car. And, as stated by myself and others in this forum, there's reason to suppose the Turbo will depreciate less than a "loaded" S. As you point out with the 996 -- the worst cases of depreciation occur with cars laden with tens of thousands of dollars in options that really have no value in resale.
Anyway. I don't think Whipple does much except GM V8s, some larger Ford engines and a few super expensive off-shore race engines. I've asked them (and all the other after-market blower-kit companies to offer something for the Cayenne S.)
Sure, you're kissing your warranty goodbye (at least the engine and drive-train) if you bolt on a blower, but that's the strength of a Porsche, so I'm not perturbed. Anyway, I'll drive out the warranty in miles under two years. The rest of the warranty is still in force (electrics, body, trim, suspension etc.) so I'm willing to do it.
Of course, the blower kill will cost $5K (at least) maybe $10K if they get greedy for the Porsche brand customer's wallets, plus labour and all that will add exactly zero to resale value (for all intents and purposes) so I guess I'm more willing to take a base S, eat the depreciation over say three years (maybe 60%) and write off the $5K+ for the blower.
Then again, the cachet and "out of the box, ready, no waiting, no warranty worries" appeal of the Turbo combined with the prospect of easy software improvements, well, that's appealing too.
Of course, of course,
if you so much as sniff at the engine management programming, you'll void the warranty on the Turbo, which could be a very expensive grenade if it went into an overboost or lean-out condition. I really would hesitate until others have walked that road.I'm keen to see early reports of increases confirmed with dyno runs and quarter mile runs. It's possible to firm up the shifts on a tranny and make a car feel stronger and faster. It's possible to ask for a little more boost or bring the boost on more abruptly and make an engine exhibit more power and torque that doesn't translate into useful performance. It will take a guru to design a complete product to unleash the Turbo. Fascinating stuff.
