BobbyB

Good reasons to have relationships with more than one dealer!

ltc

Although I am very fond of my local Porsche dealer and their personnel (as stated previously, if they sold Kia's, I'd be driving one), there comes a point in working to resolve an issue where it is out of their hands and having them on your side does little.

If you are 'going to bat' with PCNA, there are more effective means in dealing with the serious issues.
My suggestions as to what kind of bat to bring to the game, if you really want to play:
File suit in court, issue subpoenas asking them to testify regarding their knowledge of the problem within PAG and PCNA; that will normally get things rolling.

Tom 97 C2-S, So. Cal.

ltc:
At this particular point in time, having multiple P-Cars, a sense of compassion for the dealer/service (they are just the messenger), recording all their service work with 10+ marks to JD Power, and just plain keeping the "aluminum bat" hidden in the car has got things rolling plenty.

Your comments are spot on. I would like to think that it is not lost them that they are dealing with a 40 year old with a lot of car purchasing time left, a Rennlist, PCA and ex.POC member who has compassion for the marque. Time will tell.

MadFox

Before starting a lawsuit - do a Search on Road Force on this forum and on Roadfly.org. Long detailed discussions about vibration on Cayennes end of '04 - early '05. Coincidentally, I was at dealership today about poss air/water in fuel lines and ran into the GM who just started driving an '05 CTT. He said that *HIS* had the vibration issue as well. Funny thing is that he had heard about the issue but really hadn't thought it was that big of a deal until he started daily driving one!! He listened more intently to my explanation of these problems being "figured out" via the Cayenne Forums!! I think this really helped the Service Manager who had been dealing with this. Svc. Mgr. thanked me for educating GM on tire/road force/vibration/balance/alignment problems of the past two years. I now have nearly 5K on Michelin Diamaris with Road Force numbers all under 15 or so. It instantly fixed the issue and it has not re-occurred. Educate your dealer with the posts. I put up with it until I needed a set of new tires.. but I fit the bill for being a long time customer and I really think that they would have done what was needed to keep me in the P-car family in the future... and I'm sure I'll get an "open cockpit" Porsche before too long at this very good dealership.

ben in lj

how many miles did you get out of those previous tires (even though yours is a ligher S)? what's the deal about "road force numbers under 15"? thanks very much in advance.

MadFox

Here is the posting from one of my previous threads. Use the search function and get more explanations:

I had original Bridgestone Touranzas that lasted 22K (but were bald and dangerous by then) that had the shimmy/vibrations issues. Dealer and I discussed trying Continental SptContact 4 x 4's .. they only lasted 16K and were worse vibration/shimmy than the Bridgestones. READ and HEED the posts here and on roadfly about ROAD FORCE. I am using NON N spec'd. Porsche tires in the 18" wheels with the dealer's consent (they mounted etc.). The new set with 2K miles on them now have NO SHIMMY/Vibration and are Michelin Diamaris (which are N rated in 19" and 20" - don't know why 18" isn't). Each tire had LESS than 10 on Road force numbers.. (one even was a ZERO) lowest ones are on front.. I LOVE THESE TIRES.. after 38K and almost 20 months of owning a Cayenne.. Tire Heaven!

--- I had forgotten that all the Road Force numbers (which is a measurement from the manufacturer -- essentially a quality control issue) were actually under 10. I will buy Michelins again. Just had dealer rotate them at 5K.. no uneven wear, no need to align, just re-balanced and rotated.. STILL no vibration-shimmy. Hope this helps..

ben in lj

thanks, but i still don't understand how road force #s work, the necessary # to stop this damn vibration, and how it can be adjusted. iow, i'm hoping to get some info i can use to help the dealer do their job properly if this is what is standing in the way of a non steering wheel shaking drive (2nd set of tires - both did it).

MadFox

Okay, Road Force is a measurement of the tires manufactured "balance" under a load and only proves if the tire is the problem or the after-market balancing/alignment is. Porsche spec. on this rating is, I believe, that a tire must be under 30 to be within Porsche specs (MudMan? do you know or remember from other posts?). On the Cayenne, if you are much above the teens (per posts on roadfly and here) you'll have miserable vibration/shimmy on "lucky" Cayennes! Thus on my 3rd set of tires, the dealer and I agreed we would not accept any tires with RF >15. BTW, there are owners who have NEVER had the vibration/shimmy problem.

My personal opinion is that Porsche has a design tolerance so "tight" that high Road Force tires magnify minor issues within the front drivetrain/steering assemblies. In other words if the problem (hypothetically) is that wheel rims are not perfectly round and because of the precision of this vehicle, if you get toward the high end of the road force tolerance you, as the driver, may feel this vibration all the way through to the steering wheel. Porsche won't ever come out and say the rims or the axle or other things are "wrong" because that would be a recall and then they have to fix ALL Cayennes... and not everyone is having the "issue"... instead, if you have high road force tires and you have whatever the issue is.. you feel it.. INSIST that your DEALER do a road force balance (Hunter is what most dealers have/use to do so) to see what each tires' Road Force at manufacturer of the tire are (and you can't do anything about this as it is the tire's manf. balance). Here is an explanation I got from a google search on a Q/A tire forum:

Q: I have a constant problem with my tires being out of balance...... What is a "road force balance?"

A: Tires can be internally non-uniform, so that when they flex under load, they might not rebound in the same way. This causes vibration even though the tires are balanced statically (not moving) and dynamically (rotating). Rims can also exhibit lateral and radial inconsistencies, adding to vibration. Road force balance systems apply about 1,000-1,500 pounds of force against the rotating tire to both measure and compensate for all the inconsistencies. It simulates the tire/wheel’s reaction under actual driving conditions. If your tires are going out of balance often, it’s worth the road force balance to prove the problem is the tires themselves.

Hope this helps. MadFox

mudman2

Your explanation is also my understanding. My take is that the specs are ok, but the technicians carrying out the work do not understand the significance of the spec.

In the early days, my Cayenne had the usual vibrations described, but after a few tries they "got it" and even with new tires, a few times, I have never had the vibration since.

I seem to recall I had settings of 37 and 24, now they are 19 or lower.

ben in lj

thank you very much for taking the time to provide that explaination.

ajauch

That's bull***t. Mine did the same thing and they replaced two tires under warrenty. Find another dealer or raise a stink. That ain't right.

I made my service advisor ride with me on the freeway then we drove a loaner. No vibration. They kept swearing mine was tire balancing. I didn't believe them after the first two times didn't solve it. The third time was the charm though. No problems since.

Alex

rockitman

I second that!!! Finally a logical explanation. Interestingly, I had some vibration on my Pirelli 18 snows on my CT with cheaper after market rims. Just put on my new 20's with Michelin Diamaris N spec and no decernable vibration so far.