$5995 Boxster - Needs Diagnostics Experts!
03-07-2010, 11:37 AM
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$5995 Boxster - Needs Diagnostics Experts!
Yesterday Julie and I went to look at a Boxster for sale at our local VW dealership. It was advertised for $5995, so naturally that peaked our curiosity! We figured it would be far from perfect, but were curious to see how much work it needed and could we make it a worthwhile purchase for a future Doug car. I'll save the suspense...no, we didn't buy it. In fact, emphatically NO. Unfortunately, in my opinion its near a parts car. But I thought I'd share some issues here and see if some of our experts could diagnose what could be wrong and give us an idea on the costs required to fix them. The car in a nutshell doesn't seem so bad...1999 Boxster, black / red / black top, 140k miles, Tip with a few nice options (TC and heated seats). Not bad, right? Now let's get into the issues I'd love to get your thoughts on...
1) The front suspension has a "clank" or "twang" sound coming from it when you turn the wheel. Not a squeak or grind, a genuine (alarmingly loud) twang. I only drove it around the parking lot, but as I turned the wheel I'd get these twangs. I didn't have a lot of straight line driving to confirm, but I think it was only with the steering. I did notice that I could turn the wheel and it wouldn't "unwind" without me forcing back to straight. When we looked in the front trunk, there were two parts in a bag that looked like tie-rod ends, if that offers any clue as to what could be wrong.
2) I think it needed a new ignition switch. When I first turned the key to start the car I got nothing but lights. Turned the key back all the way, tried again and it started right up.
3) At start up there was no engine smoke of any kind. After driving around the lot Julie noted smoke in the exhaust. When I got out of it to look again I saw a little smoke-like substance visible in the exhaust. Not sure I'd call it white smoke so much as just visible exhaust. We also found a half empty bottle of oil in the front trunk. Another clue?
4) The driver's seat was, aside from being worn (complete with red electrical tape to "fix" tears), fused into position. It had memory seats, but nothing would move. The electrics did nothing. I couldn't even tilt the seat forward with the lever on the side. Trying to force anything, it literally felt fused in position. Weird.
5) The driver's side window would come down it's half inch or so when you opened the door, but as soon as you let go of the handle (when the door was open) it would raise back up. Aren't they supposed to stay down until the door is closed? To close the door you had to hold the handle up, get it to partially close, then push it the rest of the way closed.
6) The passenger side window wasn't working at all. In fact, it appeared to be completely off track. For the twenty minutes or so we looked at the car, it would inch lower and lower with every shake of the car or opening of the door.
7) The red carpets were virtually pink with fade. Purely cosmetic, but distractingly bad. And Julie said they smelled.
8) The top actually wasn't in too bad of shape, save for the back window. The stitching was 85% in place, but was gone on the sides where the plastic folds. There the PO actually tried to silicone that together, with poor results. When we dropped the top, it separated. The rest of the top had some usual wear, but opened and closed quickly and smoothly.
9) The airbag warning light stayed on.
10) The TC Off light stayed on, even though I never turned it off and the switch didn't indicate it was off.
Those were the major items. I didn't get to drive the car because I was too afraid of what the front suspension might be. From what I could tell the trans seemed smooth and the brakes seemed good. The body was full of little nicks and dings. CARFAX reported an accident to the left front about 60k miles ago, but I didn't see any irregular panel gaps or any obvious signs, so maybe it was a small fender bender. The car was on Boxster 17" twist wheels with Blizzak winter tires (a plus in my book, as I would put on a set of summer wheels / tires and wouldn't have to buy winters!)
So anyway, my logic was the car in good shape was still worth less than $10k with the miles on it. I figured the cost to fix all of these items would approach that value, so I passed on the car. (Well, I told him I might consider it for around $2500, but really no way was it worth $6k.) I think they would have come down some, but I doubt they want to let it go for less than $5k.
So what do we think? How much do we think it would cost to set this car straight?
1) The front suspension has a "clank" or "twang" sound coming from it when you turn the wheel. Not a squeak or grind, a genuine (alarmingly loud) twang. I only drove it around the parking lot, but as I turned the wheel I'd get these twangs. I didn't have a lot of straight line driving to confirm, but I think it was only with the steering. I did notice that I could turn the wheel and it wouldn't "unwind" without me forcing back to straight. When we looked in the front trunk, there were two parts in a bag that looked like tie-rod ends, if that offers any clue as to what could be wrong.
2) I think it needed a new ignition switch. When I first turned the key to start the car I got nothing but lights. Turned the key back all the way, tried again and it started right up.
3) At start up there was no engine smoke of any kind. After driving around the lot Julie noted smoke in the exhaust. When I got out of it to look again I saw a little smoke-like substance visible in the exhaust. Not sure I'd call it white smoke so much as just visible exhaust. We also found a half empty bottle of oil in the front trunk. Another clue?
4) The driver's seat was, aside from being worn (complete with red electrical tape to "fix" tears), fused into position. It had memory seats, but nothing would move. The electrics did nothing. I couldn't even tilt the seat forward with the lever on the side. Trying to force anything, it literally felt fused in position. Weird.
5) The driver's side window would come down it's half inch or so when you opened the door, but as soon as you let go of the handle (when the door was open) it would raise back up. Aren't they supposed to stay down until the door is closed? To close the door you had to hold the handle up, get it to partially close, then push it the rest of the way closed.
6) The passenger side window wasn't working at all. In fact, it appeared to be completely off track. For the twenty minutes or so we looked at the car, it would inch lower and lower with every shake of the car or opening of the door.
7) The red carpets were virtually pink with fade. Purely cosmetic, but distractingly bad. And Julie said they smelled.
8) The top actually wasn't in too bad of shape, save for the back window. The stitching was 85% in place, but was gone on the sides where the plastic folds. There the PO actually tried to silicone that together, with poor results. When we dropped the top, it separated. The rest of the top had some usual wear, but opened and closed quickly and smoothly.
9) The airbag warning light stayed on.
10) The TC Off light stayed on, even though I never turned it off and the switch didn't indicate it was off.
Those were the major items. I didn't get to drive the car because I was too afraid of what the front suspension might be. From what I could tell the trans seemed smooth and the brakes seemed good. The body was full of little nicks and dings. CARFAX reported an accident to the left front about 60k miles ago, but I didn't see any irregular panel gaps or any obvious signs, so maybe it was a small fender bender. The car was on Boxster 17" twist wheels with Blizzak winter tires (a plus in my book, as I would put on a set of summer wheels / tires and wouldn't have to buy winters!)
So anyway, my logic was the car in good shape was still worth less than $10k with the miles on it. I figured the cost to fix all of these items would approach that value, so I passed on the car. (Well, I told him I might consider it for around $2500, but really no way was it worth $6k.) I think they would have come down some, but I doubt they want to let it go for less than $5k.
So what do we think? How much do we think it would cost to set this car straight?
03-07-2010, 11:51 AM
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So there are mechanical, suspension, electrical, exterior and interior issues on a 11 year old year car with 140K miles, with a tip tranny. Are you mechanically inclined and need a project car because that's what it sounds like you are describing. I have a friend that would buy this car and strip it completely just for the fun of it and for the right price. That price would have to be really low, say below half of what the dealer was asking. I'm not a tiptronic kind of person so that would kick the deal right away, along with the insanity that would follow for years to come. I would rather spend a little more on the front side and leave the "fixers" for someone else to sort out.
03-07-2010, 12:09 PM
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FWIW I'm fine with an imperfect driver (which I was hoping this would be), but no, not a project car. As for the Tip, I'm ok with it. My life is stop and go traffic, so if I want to drive a Porsche every day (and all year 'round), it needs to be a Tip.
After talking with the sales manager, he caught on that I knew Boxsters better than anyone there, so he was curious to hear my "report" on the car after looking it over. I literally told the guy "I don't know how much you paid for this car, but it was too much". I think they'll have a hard time selling this car to anyone (well, anyone who comes to look at the car) for more than $2-3k. I feel sorry for the poor sucker who buys it "over the net".
After talking with the sales manager, he caught on that I knew Boxsters better than anyone there, so he was curious to hear my "report" on the car after looking it over. I literally told the guy "I don't know how much you paid for this car, but it was too much". I think they'll have a hard time selling this car to anyone (well, anyone who comes to look at the car) for more than $2-3k. I feel sorry for the poor sucker who buys it "over the net".
03-07-2010, 12:42 PM
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Sounds like a mess, Still good to see you on the lookout for another Porsche Doug 
I actually saw a decent 5 speed 99 Boxster for K recently, it was tempting. Sold fast.
I actually saw a decent 5 speed 99 Boxster for K recently, it was tempting. Sold fast.
03-07-2010, 12:51 PM
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Doug,
Driving in heavy traffic with a stick every day would not be my idea of a good time. Last Boxster I had the opportunity to drive was an 05 Boxster S. What a blast. Good luck in your search.
Driving in heavy traffic with a stick every day would not be my idea of a good time. Last Boxster I had the opportunity to drive was an 05 Boxster S. What a blast. Good luck in your search.
03-07-2010, 01:34 PM
#6
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Aside from the front wheels, none of those sounds like terribly dangerous, just symptomatic of an 11 year old car. That twang could be something completely innocuous and trivial to fix. Even if it IS something serious... it's just the front suspension, you could replace the whole thing if you needed to and still be way ahead.
For $6k, this would make an awesome track car
For $6k, this would make an awesome track car
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03-07-2010, 02:40 PM
#8
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Yesterday Julie and I went to look at a Boxster for sale at our local VW dealership. It was advertised for $5995, so naturally that peaked our curiosity! We figured it would be far from perfect, but were curious to see how much work it needed and could we make it a worthwhile purchase for a future Doug car. I'll save the suspense...no, we didn't buy it. In fact, emphatically NO. Unfortunately, in my opinion its near a parts car. But I thought I'd share some issues here and see if some of our experts could diagnose what could be wrong and give us an idea on the costs required to fix them. The car in a nutshell doesn't seem so bad...1999 Boxster, black / red / black top, 140k miles, Tip with a few nice options (TC and heated seats). Not bad, right? Now let's get into the issues I'd love to get your thoughts on...
1) The front suspension has a "clank" or "twang" sound coming from it when you turn the wheel. Not a squeak or grind, a genuine (alarmingly loud) twang. I only drove it around the parking lot, but as I turned the wheel I'd get these twangs. I didn't have a lot of straight line driving to confirm, but I think it was only with the steering. I did notice that I could turn the wheel and it wouldn't "unwind" without me forcing back to straight. When we looked in the front trunk, there were two parts in a bag that looked like tie-rod ends, if that offers any clue as to what could be wrong.
2) I think it needed a new ignition switch. When I first turned the key to start the car I got nothing but lights. Turned the key back all the way, tried again and it started right up.
3) At start up there was no engine smoke of any kind. After driving around the lot Julie noted smoke in the exhaust. When I got out of it to look again I saw a little smoke-like substance visible in the exhaust. Not sure I'd call it white smoke so much as just visible exhaust. We also found a half empty bottle of oil in the front trunk. Another clue?
4) The driver's seat was, aside from being worn (complete with red electrical tape to "fix" tears), fused into position. It had memory seats, but nothing would move. The electrics did nothing. I couldn't even tilt the seat forward with the lever on the side. Trying to force anything, it literally felt fused in position. Weird.
5) The driver's side window would come down it's half inch or so when you opened the door, but as soon as you let go of the handle (when the door was open) it would raise back up. Aren't they supposed to stay down until the door is closed? To close the door you had to hold the handle up, get it to partially close, then push it the rest of the way closed.
6) The passenger side window wasn't working at all. In fact, it appeared to be completely off track. For the twenty minutes or so we looked at the car, it would inch lower and lower with every shake of the car or opening of the door.
7) The red carpets were virtually pink with fade. Purely cosmetic, but distractingly bad. And Julie said they smelled.
8) The top actually wasn't in too bad of shape, save for the back window. The stitching was 85% in place, but was gone on the sides where the plastic folds. There the PO actually tried to silicone that together, with poor results. When we dropped the top, it separated. The rest of the top had some usual wear, but opened and closed quickly and smoothly.
9) The airbag warning light stayed on.
10) The TC Off light stayed on, even though I never turned it off and the switch didn't indicate it was off.
Those were the major items. I didn't get to drive the car because I was too afraid of what the front suspension might be. From what I could tell the trans seemed smooth and the brakes seemed good. The body was full of little nicks and dings. CARFAX reported an accident to the left front about 60k miles ago, but I didn't see any irregular panel gaps or any obvious signs, so maybe it was a small fender bender. The car was on Boxster 17" twist wheels with Blizzak winter tires (a plus in my book, as I would put on a set of summer wheels / tires and wouldn't have to buy winters!)
So anyway, my logic was the car in good shape was still worth less than $10k with the miles on it. I figured the cost to fix all of these items would approach that value, so I passed on the car. (Well, I told him I might consider it for around $2500, but really no way was it worth $6k.) I think they would have come down some, but I doubt they want to let it go for less than $5k.
So what do we think? How much do we think it would cost to set this car straight?
1) The front suspension has a "clank" or "twang" sound coming from it when you turn the wheel. Not a squeak or grind, a genuine (alarmingly loud) twang. I only drove it around the parking lot, but as I turned the wheel I'd get these twangs. I didn't have a lot of straight line driving to confirm, but I think it was only with the steering. I did notice that I could turn the wheel and it wouldn't "unwind" without me forcing back to straight. When we looked in the front trunk, there were two parts in a bag that looked like tie-rod ends, if that offers any clue as to what could be wrong.
2) I think it needed a new ignition switch. When I first turned the key to start the car I got nothing but lights. Turned the key back all the way, tried again and it started right up.
3) At start up there was no engine smoke of any kind. After driving around the lot Julie noted smoke in the exhaust. When I got out of it to look again I saw a little smoke-like substance visible in the exhaust. Not sure I'd call it white smoke so much as just visible exhaust. We also found a half empty bottle of oil in the front trunk. Another clue?
4) The driver's seat was, aside from being worn (complete with red electrical tape to "fix" tears), fused into position. It had memory seats, but nothing would move. The electrics did nothing. I couldn't even tilt the seat forward with the lever on the side. Trying to force anything, it literally felt fused in position. Weird.
5) The driver's side window would come down it's half inch or so when you opened the door, but as soon as you let go of the handle (when the door was open) it would raise back up. Aren't they supposed to stay down until the door is closed? To close the door you had to hold the handle up, get it to partially close, then push it the rest of the way closed.
6) The passenger side window wasn't working at all. In fact, it appeared to be completely off track. For the twenty minutes or so we looked at the car, it would inch lower and lower with every shake of the car or opening of the door.
7) The red carpets were virtually pink with fade. Purely cosmetic, but distractingly bad. And Julie said they smelled.
8) The top actually wasn't in too bad of shape, save for the back window. The stitching was 85% in place, but was gone on the sides where the plastic folds. There the PO actually tried to silicone that together, with poor results. When we dropped the top, it separated. The rest of the top had some usual wear, but opened and closed quickly and smoothly.
9) The airbag warning light stayed on.
10) The TC Off light stayed on, even though I never turned it off and the switch didn't indicate it was off.
Those were the major items. I didn't get to drive the car because I was too afraid of what the front suspension might be. From what I could tell the trans seemed smooth and the brakes seemed good. The body was full of little nicks and dings. CARFAX reported an accident to the left front about 60k miles ago, but I didn't see any irregular panel gaps or any obvious signs, so maybe it was a small fender bender. The car was on Boxster 17" twist wheels with Blizzak winter tires (a plus in my book, as I would put on a set of summer wheels / tires and wouldn't have to buy winters!)
So anyway, my logic was the car in good shape was still worth less than $10k with the miles on it. I figured the cost to fix all of these items would approach that value, so I passed on the car. (Well, I told him I might consider it for around $2500, but really no way was it worth $6k.) I think they would have come down some, but I doubt they want to let it go for less than $5k.
So what do we think? How much do we think it would cost to set this car straight?
Assuming the car's not been in an accident and the front end troubles are not indicative of a botched accident repair figure on replacing the various wear items in the front suspension/steering. While the noise might just be a broken sway bar link loose the other symptoms suggest something far more serious.
Ignition switch is a DIY project. I can't remember what the parts cost is but in the region of a few hundred dollars.
The smoking after engine's been run a while suggests rings/valve guides/seals. Assuming the smoke oil smoke. Engine oil consumption has to be pretty bad to show up as oil smoke while engine running. You could take car out and with engine warm and plenty of oil in the engine and a spare quart in the trunk take car up to speed then let car coast down on engine compression. Quickly depress the accelerator and note any signs of exhaust smoke. If any smoke rings, or valve guides or at least seals. You could run a compression test and if the results point to troubles then a leak down test to try to determine if it is rings or valves the cause of the poor compression results. You might find the block's shot in which case the engine's toast.
Regardless what you find -- unless by luck you find smoking related to say a bad AOS -- the engine will have to come out and then torn down and the guilty items id'd and replaced. My guess is while you are there other wear items will need attention: chain guides/tensioners, VarioCam actuators, oil pump, water pump, injectors, spark plugs, coils.
Items 3 through 7 and 9 and 10 suggest the car's been wet, real wet. Maybe top left open in rain, drain holes blocked and water overflowed into cabin, maybe even flood damaged. Or from item 8 the water got in past the bad stitching.
A new top can be fitted. I don't know the price.
To put this right requires complete disassembly of the cabin portion affected: seats come out (can be replaced with aftermarket seats perhaps), carpeting, door panels. The electronics box under the driver's seat likely kaput so budget a replacement of that. The rest of the items can be replaced with items obtained from salvaged vehicle. Interior decor might not match after but the car won't stink and the electrics will work reliably.
Frankly and honestly I wouldn't have the car if the seller gave it too me. The car has nothing going for it that requires it be saved from the crusher. It is just an old used Boxster that through no fault of its own was allowed to get in a condition that requires more money than the car is worth to put right.
There are similar cars in far better condition for not much more money that the seller is asking for this car.
Non-running Boxsters were going for around $3500 6 months back with runners $1000 more. These cars were destined to be parts donor cars. While this car running with the engine's very likely shot condition and the other troubles this car would qualify I believe for a non-running Boxster value at best and that would be probably south of the $3500 figure.
As I believe someone else touched upon if someone's looking for a track car then a $1000 or so less and the car could be gutted and the interior stinky parts removed. The top replaced with hardtop or cheap new top. Seats replaced with aftermarket. The front end problems would have to be addressed fo course.
Engine's still a big unknown. I doubt its condition would allow the car to remain unblack flagged for long so it would have to be fixed. Now someone with making this a track car in mind might have a back up engine sitting around and the original engine could be yanked and maybe torn down to see if it is salvagable.
Sincerely,
Macster.
03-07-2010, 09:26 PM
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Macster, thanks so much for chiming in. I was hoping you'd lend your expertise. I think you're dead on with your understanding of this car...sadly. I can't tell you (all) how depressed I was walking away from this car. Not because I wasn't going to buy it, but because I can guess its fate. I can only hope someone with racing in mind comes along to snap it up so that it can at least live a little longer, and with a little more purpose. Who knows, if Julie and I weren't trying to make a life change, maybe I'd jump on it for that very idea!
03-07-2010, 09:32 PM
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Anywho...still trying to make that cross country move soon, but in the meantime keeping an eye out for something "not to expensive" that I might be able to live with for a while.
03-07-2010, 09:38 PM
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I'm currently driving a Subie (we've owned seven or eight of those, too) because it does the everyday so well (and is mildly entertaining). When I bought it I promised myself I'd never sell it, but would add to the stable instead of replacing it with my next Porsche. If I can find a good $5k (ish) Porsche I might be able to to just that. If I get even an older "cheap" Boxster, I will most likely will have the sell the Subie. That would be easier to do if I got a Tip. It could be my every day / every season car and I could eventually get an old 911 again for a fun car. Well that's one plan, anyway...
03-08-2010, 04:06 AM
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If I can find a good $5k (ish) Porsche I might be able to to just that. If I get even an older "cheap" Boxster, I will most likely will have the sell the Subie. That would be easier to do if I got a Tip. It could be my every day / every season car and I could eventually get an old 911 again for a fun car. Well that's one plan, anyway...
Hi Doug,
I remember you from the Pelican Parts forums and IIRC, you had a very nice grey Boxster that you sold?
Anyway, I feel your pain about being Porsche-less. There seems to be a kernel of truth in the "There is no substitute" slogan. I've been looking for somewhat the same car as you--a car that would qualify as a "decent" daily driver to replace my current '88 924S, which runs quite well, needs enough cosmetic work--new paint, recovered dash and lots of little things that makes me want to just replace it with a Boxster. To that end, I've been religiously checking all the usual places and getting a feel for the market and keeping a sharp eye out for a bargain. I have a feeling that you may have been doing the same. That said, I think a "$5K-ISH" car in decent condition is still a pretty rare bird. From what I've seen the true "bargains" are Boxster S's around $10K and some exceptional (read: well-maintained, and tastefully modified) base Boxsters for around the same price. I've run into some average, higher-mileage base cars around $8-8.5K that I would consider good deals if one were take on some DIY fix-up, clean-up tasks. I'm not saying it's impossible to find a "$5K-ish" car out there, or that they might start appearing with more regularity until the economy turns around some more. And you just never know when you'll run across a truly great deal. If that's case I hope you find yours right after I find mine ;-).
Keep us posted on what you run into out there and maybe we'll all benefit from the added knowledge.
(Ramble done...)
03-08-2010, 08:49 AM
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Hey Stephen, nice shark. Yes I did have a grey Boxster that I (foolishly) sold. That's one I definitely wish I kept. I had done just enough minor mods to it to make it "mine". Plus it had a fresh motor after slipped sleave failure at 29k miles. 
You can see all of my Pcars here: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...7&l=5e19053c63
And yes, I miss each and every one of them.
I should learn to write more clearly...I don't think I'll ever be able to find a $5k-ish Boxster. But I'm open to other $5k-ish Porsches. Like a good 924S or 944. Although they don't trip my trigger as much as a Boxster or old 911. I think I could still enjoy one. I did have that '88 944 for over five years, after all.
I have yet to see a Boxster under $9k that I would consider buying. So IMO if I want a decent Boxster, I'm still going to have to pay a little more which would mean I'd want to sell my Subie. ...OR... If I can find an otherwise good Boxster with a bad motor, and get it for less than $5k, I would consider buying it and having Flat6Innovations rebuild it with more HP and have a good car for a long time. This is what I was hoping the car at the VW dealership was. Sadly...no...
Yes I did have a grey Boxster that I (foolishly) sold. That's one I definitely wish I kept. I had done just enough minor mods to it to make it "mine". Plus it had a fresh motor after slipped sleave failure at 29k miles. You can see all of my Pcars here: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...7&l=5e19053c63
And yes, I miss each and every one of them.
I should learn to write more clearly...I don't think I'll ever be able to find a $5k-ish Boxster. But I'm open to other $5k-ish Porsches. Like a good 924S or 944. Although they don't trip my trigger as much as a Boxster or old 911. I think I could still enjoy one. I did have that '88 944 for over five years, after all.
I have yet to see a Boxster under $9k that I would consider buying. So IMO if I want a decent Boxster, I'm still going to have to pay a little more which would mean I'd want to sell my Subie. ...OR... If I can find an otherwise good Boxster with a bad motor, and get it for less than $5k, I would consider buying it and having Flat6Innovations rebuild it with more HP and have a good car for a long time. This is what I was hoping the car at the VW dealership was. Sadly...no...
