Used Oil Analysis - 2.7 Boxster
07-11-2009, 08:27 PM
#16
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The data was of interest, clearly. Now the sorting out and fact finding. People want to make sense of things so they can apply or not apply changes to how they do things. It is not a personal attack. I am not one-hundred percent certain, but I have this strange feeling you are not use to being questioned about what you say. Is that about right? I am getting this possible air of superiority from some one who post data on a public forum.
07-11-2009, 10:22 PM
#17
Drifting
Doug I will give you a hand if you are not sure how to do it , first of all you simply put }
I use Mobil Delvac diesel engine oil instead of the Porsche and Mobil recommended engine oils in my boxter because in my opinion the Mobil Delvac diesel oil has certain qualities that I like which are as follows .
A) ...........
B)...........
C) ..........
etc etc
Then put" this is of my opinion "(very helpful in case of later issues).
BB
I use Mobil Delvac diesel engine oil instead of the Porsche and Mobil recommended engine oils in my boxter because in my opinion the Mobil Delvac diesel oil has certain qualities that I like which are as follows .
A) ...........
B)...........
C) ..........
etc etc
Then put" this is of my opinion "(very helpful in case of later issues).
BB
07-13-2009, 08:12 PM
#18
Drifting
Doug ,I am truly puzzled by the overwhelming silence from you on the very subject that I thought you took so much pride in , may I remind you on something you posted on Landshark on a few years ago ,
Quote[ and may I add ,to try to make Landshark a better place to exchange ideas , data, thoughts, & a wide range of experiences ] End of Quote.
Doug your silence on some very easy questions is quite strange indeed , so lets exchange ideas, data , thoughts and a wide range of experiences , because you couldn't have changed you view on this very principle that you posted not long ago .
BB
Quote[ and may I add ,to try to make Landshark a better place to exchange ideas , data, thoughts, & a wide range of experiences ] End of Quote.
Doug your silence on some very easy questions is quite strange indeed , so lets exchange ideas, data , thoughts and a wide range of experiences , because you couldn't have changed you view on this very principle that you posted not long ago .
BB
07-13-2009, 10:01 PM
#19
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Sean have you considered that your rather aggressive and repeated questions are simply harassing Doug? His contributions on various oil formulations have been welcomed by almost everyone. Why do you pursue him?
07-14-2009, 12:45 AM
#20
Drifting
Hi Bob,
i take my questions as very relivent to a very technical subject. one simply cannot post on a public forum without question. many questions of which have not been answered. you are right aswell a lot of uninformed people have welcomed Doug and his contributions. many Porsche specialists, like us, have not been so willing to accept Doug's contributions based on Our own personal experience(and the experience of many indipendant Porsche specialists) of working on Porsche cars for over 30 years. We have seen everything, what works, what doesnt work. We want these cars to live on beyond their owners like they were designed to do. We want the owners of these cars to be well informed.
i take my questions as very relivent to a very technical subject. one simply cannot post on a public forum without question. many questions of which have not been answered. you are right aswell a lot of uninformed people have welcomed Doug and his contributions. many Porsche specialists, like us, have not been so willing to accept Doug's contributions based on Our own personal experience(and the experience of many indipendant Porsche specialists) of working on Porsche cars for over 30 years. We have seen everything, what works, what doesnt work. We want these cars to live on beyond their owners like they were designed to do. We want the owners of these cars to be well informed.
07-14-2009, 08:37 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
I personally think Doug's info is invaluable. He has obviously done in-depth research regarding his choice of oil, and I don't think for a minute that he would choose an oil that could be in any way detrimental to the life of his engine. Like me (yeah, yeah, I still use Kendall GT-1 20w/50 in my 200K+ mile '82 SC, even though it's not the same yadda, yadda..., and almost everyone says I should be using Brad-Penn), Doug would not accept, for whatever reason, that for his use, in his world, in his car, that something out there was better.
Doug's type of P-car use is probably the easiest on his car, long, extended drives at higher speeds, so that is not a factor that would contribute to more frequent changes. The TBN of his chosen oil is 10.1, a solid number good enough to satisfy even Porsche, who likes to see a minimum of 10 to satisfy their extended drain requirements. (My beloved Kendall's TBN is only 7.8, but I usually change it at 4K mile intervals, and do a lot more city driving than Doug).
Doug's Delvac is full synthetic, is totally compatible with conventional oils, and exceeds the requirements of virtually all American and European engine manufacturers. Instead of holding Doug's feet to the fire for contributing useful information, readers might be better served to digest that info, do some research on their own, and, as Doug suggested, add his info to their file for possible future use. Personally, I would not consider using any synthetic oil in my old 911, but I have an Audi A4 in the garage that might just see a dose of Delvac at its next service.
Doug's type of P-car use is probably the easiest on his car, long, extended drives at higher speeds, so that is not a factor that would contribute to more frequent changes. The TBN of his chosen oil is 10.1, a solid number good enough to satisfy even Porsche, who likes to see a minimum of 10 to satisfy their extended drain requirements. (My beloved Kendall's TBN is only 7.8, but I usually change it at 4K mile intervals, and do a lot more city driving than Doug).
Doug's Delvac is full synthetic, is totally compatible with conventional oils, and exceeds the requirements of virtually all American and European engine manufacturers. Instead of holding Doug's feet to the fire for contributing useful information, readers might be better served to digest that info, do some research on their own, and, as Doug suggested, add his info to their file for possible future use. Personally, I would not consider using any synthetic oil in my old 911, but I have an Audi A4 in the garage that might just see a dose of Delvac at its next service.
07-15-2009, 01:34 AM
#22
Race Director
While Mobil 1 5w-40 a good oil -- I ran it in my VW TDi for 120K miles....
I personally think Doug's info is invaluable. He has obviously done in-depth research regarding his choice of oil, and I don't think for a minute that he would choose an oil that could be in any way detrimental to the life of his engine. Like me (yeah, yeah, I still use Kendall GT-1 20w/50 in my 200K+ mile '82 SC, even though it's not the same yadda, yadda..., and almost everyone says I should be using Brad-Penn), Doug would not accept, for whatever reason, that for his use, in his world, in his car, that something out there was better.
Doug's type of P-car use is probably the easiest on his car, long, extended drives at higher speeds, so that is not a factor that would contribute to more frequent changes. The TBN of his chosen oil is 10.1, a solid number good enough to satisfy even Porsche, who likes to see a minimum of 10 to satisfy their extended drain requirements. (My beloved Kendall's TBN is only 7.8, but I usually change it at 4K mile intervals, and do a lot more city driving than Doug).
Doug's Delvac is full synthetic, is totally compatible with conventional oils, and exceeds the requirements of virtually all American and European engine manufacturers. Instead of holding Doug's feet to the fire for contributing useful information, readers might be better served to digest that info, do some research on their own, and, as Doug suggested, add his info to their file for possible future use. Personally, I would not consider using any synthetic oil in my old 911, but I have an Audi A4 in the garage that might just see a dose of Delvac at its next service.
Doug's type of P-car use is probably the easiest on his car, long, extended drives at higher speeds, so that is not a factor that would contribute to more frequent changes. The TBN of his chosen oil is 10.1, a solid number good enough to satisfy even Porsche, who likes to see a minimum of 10 to satisfy their extended drain requirements. (My beloved Kendall's TBN is only 7.8, but I usually change it at 4K mile intervals, and do a lot more city driving than Doug).
Doug's Delvac is full synthetic, is totally compatible with conventional oils, and exceeds the requirements of virtually all American and European engine manufacturers. Instead of holding Doug's feet to the fire for contributing useful information, readers might be better served to digest that info, do some research on their own, and, as Doug suggested, add his info to their file for possible future use. Personally, I would not consider using any synthetic oil in my old 911, but I have an Audi A4 in the garage that might just see a dose of Delvac at its next service.
The 10.1 TBN you rave for instance: Out of the bottle Mobil 5w-40 has TBN of 10.7 while Mobil 1 0w-40 oil has TBN of 11.3.
Furthermore, Mobil 1 5w-40 oil is not approved by Porsche for use in its gasoline engines.
Oils intended for diesel engnes are high detergent to help keep soot that makes its way past rings and into oil from forming sludge. (After changing my TDi's oil/filter oil would be very dark in no time -- from soot -- while my 02 Boxster's oil would retain its golden hue for a thousand or more miles of similar driving.)
This aggressive detergent feature is ok in a low revving diesel engine.
In a high revving gas engine the result is in more air being entrained in the oil and the risk of critical bearing interfaces being fed oil with some air in it. The defoaming components of a Porsche engine are designed to deal with a certain amount of air in oil. Exceed this by using an oil that has a propensity for getting more aerated and not all or not enough air will be removed from the oil. With air in it, the load bearing capability of oil is severely compromised.
This aerated oil problem is real. High performance engine builders have noticed some USA engines on dyno suffer from power drop off at high rpm -- though still near but under red line. Cause has been traced to air in oil that allowed hydraulic lifters to lose some firmness and thus not able to react to the cam lobe as is required to maintain the desired valve action. This change in valve action cost HP at high rpm.
One can only guess what the bearings make of this aerated oil....
As more than one expert has pointed out oil in a Porsche engine is a lubricant, cooling fluid, but also serves as a hydraulic fluid for the hydraulic valve lifters, and variable valve timing and variable valve lift mechanisms. Oil with a too high load of air in it in these systems can wreck havoc.
As for using Mobil 5w-40 oil in your A4 Audio, if this is a gasoline powered car be advised Mobil 1 5w-40 does not have under its list of builder specifications Audi, VW or Porsche. It has Caterpillar though so use it in your big rig engine.
Mobil 1 0w-40 oil otoh does have under its list of builder specifications Porsche and VW (502.00 and 505.00).
My impression the original poster uses Mobil 5w-40 truck/diesel oil cause its convenient. It is not the right oil to use, convenience notwithstanding. It is not approved by Porsche and doesn't meet Porsche requirements for oil used in its gasoline engines.
To advise owners of gasoline powered cars to use this oil is wrong.
No harm may come of using it -- especially if oil not run for extended lengths of time -- but it is still the wrong oil to use. Impossible to say but if one insists on using this oil and some internal engine trouble developed under warranty if it came out that one had been using an oil not approved by Porsche the warranty may be invalidated.
Since I'm not prepared to offer a warranty in lieu of Porsche I advise any Porsche owner run an oil that is on Porsche's approved list, meets with Porsche's requirements, and to at least follow Porsche's recommendation drain intervals. Personally I feel these intervals too long and suggest a shorter drain interval be followed but of course it is up to the owner to do as he pleases.
Sincerely,
Macster.
07-15-2009, 12:41 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
with of course regular oil/filter services it is not better than Mobil 1 0W-40 oil and is not the better oil for modern Porsches.
Please define "regular" and "better." Your statement lacks specificity.
The 10.1 TBN you rave for instance: Out of the bottle Mobil 5w-40 has TBN of 10.7 while Mobil 1 0w-40 oil has TBN of 11.3.
Rave? I don't think I was raving. All I did was mention that Porsche likes to see a "Minimum" TBN of 10.0, which Delvac exceeds.
Furthermore, Mobil 1 5w-40 oil is not approved by Porsche for use in its gasoline engines.
Nobody here said it was.
Oils intended for diesel engnes are high detergent to help keep soot that makes its way past rings and into oil from forming sludge. (After changing my TDi's oil/filter oil would be very dark in no time -- from soot -- while my 02 Boxster's oil would retain its golden hue for a thousand or more miles of similar driving.)
This aggressive detergent feature is ok in a low revving diesel engine.
That's one thing that we always appreciated with Kendall GT-1 20w/50 - it went in green and came out black. As opposed to Castrol, which went in honey-colored and came out honey-colored - which meant that the inside of the engine was dirty, dirty, dirty.
In a high revving gas engine the result is in more air being entrained in the oil and the risk of critical bearing interfaces being fed oil with some air in it. The defoaming components of a Porsche engine are designed to deal with a certain amount of air in oil. Exceed this by using an oil that has a propensity for getting more aerated and not all or not enough air will be removed from the oil. With air in it, the load bearing capability of oil is severely compromised.
This aerated oil problem is real. High performance engine builders have noticed some USA engines on dyno suffer from power drop off at high rpm -- though still near but under red line. Cause has been traced to air in oil that allowed hydraulic lifters to lose some firmness and thus not able to react to the cam lobe as is required to maintain the desired valve action. This change in valve action cost HP at high rpm.
One can only guess what the bearings make of this aerated oil....
As more than one expert has pointed out oil in a Porsche engine is a lubricant, cooling fluid, but also serves as a hydraulic fluid for the hydraulic valve lifters, and variable valve timing and variable valve lift mechanisms. Oil with a too high load of air in it in these systems can wreck havoc.
LINK?
As for using Mobil 5w-40 oil in your A4 Audio, if this is a gasoline powered car be advised Mobil 1 5w-40 does not have under its list of builder specifications Audi, VW or Porsche. It has Caterpillar though so use it in your big rig engine.
Actually, my A4 is still under warranty, so, for now, I'm stuck with what the dealer puts in (every 5K miles). After warranty, however, a strong detergent oil might be just the ticket following years of Castrol use.
Mobil 1 0w-40 oil otoh does have under its list of builder specifications Porsche and VW (502.00 and 505.00).
LOL! I think that they would lose a little credibility if they advertised that their approved motor oil was primarily designed for diesel engines.
My impression the original poster uses Mobil 5w-40 truck/diesel oil cause its convenient. It is not the right oil to use, convenience notwithstanding. It is not approved by Porsche and doesn't meet Porsche requirements for oil used in its gasoline engines.
To advise owners of gasoline powered cars to use this oil is wrong.
NO advice/recommendation was made by Doug, and he was quite clear with this point.
No harm may come of using it -- especially if oil not run for extended lengths of time -- but it is still the wrong oil to use. Impossible to say but if one insists on using this oil and some internal engine trouble developed under warranty if it came out that one had been using an oil not approved by Porsche the warranty may be invalidated.
Is Doug's car still under warranty? If not, this point is moot.
Since I'm not prepared to offer a warranty in lieu of Porsche I advise any Porsche owner run an oil that is on Porsche's approved list, meets with Porsche's requirements, and to at least follow Porsche's recommendation drain intervals. Personally I feel these intervals too long and suggest a shorter drain interval be followed but of course it is up to the owner to do as he pleases.
That is entirely proper for a shop owner to do, but the entire world is filled with intelligent, thinking people who have done independent research and have discovered something that "might" be better for their personal situation. (I refuse to use what the world tells me to use in my 915 transmission [Swepco] simply because I know that Kendall Three-Star works, and it might even be better. No technical data to back this up, only 30 + years experience repairing P-car transmissions). Doug has done his research, and even though he is qualified to advise/recommend he has resisted doing that. No harm, no foul.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Please define "regular" and "better." Your statement lacks specificity.
The 10.1 TBN you rave for instance: Out of the bottle Mobil 5w-40 has TBN of 10.7 while Mobil 1 0w-40 oil has TBN of 11.3.
Rave? I don't think I was raving. All I did was mention that Porsche likes to see a "Minimum" TBN of 10.0, which Delvac exceeds.
Furthermore, Mobil 1 5w-40 oil is not approved by Porsche for use in its gasoline engines.
Nobody here said it was.
Oils intended for diesel engnes are high detergent to help keep soot that makes its way past rings and into oil from forming sludge. (After changing my TDi's oil/filter oil would be very dark in no time -- from soot -- while my 02 Boxster's oil would retain its golden hue for a thousand or more miles of similar driving.)
This aggressive detergent feature is ok in a low revving diesel engine.
That's one thing that we always appreciated with Kendall GT-1 20w/50 - it went in green and came out black. As opposed to Castrol, which went in honey-colored and came out honey-colored - which meant that the inside of the engine was dirty, dirty, dirty.
In a high revving gas engine the result is in more air being entrained in the oil and the risk of critical bearing interfaces being fed oil with some air in it. The defoaming components of a Porsche engine are designed to deal with a certain amount of air in oil. Exceed this by using an oil that has a propensity for getting more aerated and not all or not enough air will be removed from the oil. With air in it, the load bearing capability of oil is severely compromised.
This aerated oil problem is real. High performance engine builders have noticed some USA engines on dyno suffer from power drop off at high rpm -- though still near but under red line. Cause has been traced to air in oil that allowed hydraulic lifters to lose some firmness and thus not able to react to the cam lobe as is required to maintain the desired valve action. This change in valve action cost HP at high rpm.
One can only guess what the bearings make of this aerated oil....
As more than one expert has pointed out oil in a Porsche engine is a lubricant, cooling fluid, but also serves as a hydraulic fluid for the hydraulic valve lifters, and variable valve timing and variable valve lift mechanisms. Oil with a too high load of air in it in these systems can wreck havoc.
LINK?
As for using Mobil 5w-40 oil in your A4 Audio, if this is a gasoline powered car be advised Mobil 1 5w-40 does not have under its list of builder specifications Audi, VW or Porsche. It has Caterpillar though so use it in your big rig engine.
Actually, my A4 is still under warranty, so, for now, I'm stuck with what the dealer puts in (every 5K miles). After warranty, however, a strong detergent oil might be just the ticket following years of Castrol use.
Mobil 1 0w-40 oil otoh does have under its list of builder specifications Porsche and VW (502.00 and 505.00).
LOL! I think that they would lose a little credibility if they advertised that their approved motor oil was primarily designed for diesel engines.
My impression the original poster uses Mobil 5w-40 truck/diesel oil cause its convenient. It is not the right oil to use, convenience notwithstanding. It is not approved by Porsche and doesn't meet Porsche requirements for oil used in its gasoline engines.
To advise owners of gasoline powered cars to use this oil is wrong.
NO advice/recommendation was made by Doug, and he was quite clear with this point.
No harm may come of using it -- especially if oil not run for extended lengths of time -- but it is still the wrong oil to use. Impossible to say but if one insists on using this oil and some internal engine trouble developed under warranty if it came out that one had been using an oil not approved by Porsche the warranty may be invalidated.
Is Doug's car still under warranty? If not, this point is moot.
Since I'm not prepared to offer a warranty in lieu of Porsche I advise any Porsche owner run an oil that is on Porsche's approved list, meets with Porsche's requirements, and to at least follow Porsche's recommendation drain intervals. Personally I feel these intervals too long and suggest a shorter drain interval be followed but of course it is up to the owner to do as he pleases.
That is entirely proper for a shop owner to do, but the entire world is filled with intelligent, thinking people who have done independent research and have discovered something that "might" be better for their personal situation. (I refuse to use what the world tells me to use in my 915 transmission [Swepco] simply because I know that Kendall Three-Star works, and it might even be better. No technical data to back this up, only 30 + years experience repairing P-car transmissions). Doug has done his research, and even though he is qualified to advise/recommend he has resisted doing that. No harm, no foul.
Sincerely,
Macster.
07-15-2009, 04:34 PM
#25
Race Director
Wording not clear I admit at beginning. Not sure what I was thinking.
As for link to sources of oil serving as something other than a lubricant and cooling fluid this aspect of oil has been covered in several of the popular USA published car mags (Excellence and one aimed at BMW owners, GM High Performance magazine) and one or two UK published mags as well.
Do you fail to see how a hydraulic lifter, a zero-valve lash device is not a hydraulic device? Or a oil pressurized chain tensioner/guide? A variable valve timing mechanism? A variable valve lift mechanism.
All use the presence of engine oil supplied constantly while engine running and supplied under some pressure to be able to perform their intended function.
AS for the OP not recommending Delvac oil my apologies. I've been away from the thread and relying upon my memory and didn't bother reading through it again.
Sincerely,
Macster.
As for link to sources of oil serving as something other than a lubricant and cooling fluid this aspect of oil has been covered in several of the popular USA published car mags (Excellence and one aimed at BMW owners, GM High Performance magazine) and one or two UK published mags as well.
Do you fail to see how a hydraulic lifter, a zero-valve lash device is not a hydraulic device? Or a oil pressurized chain tensioner/guide? A variable valve timing mechanism? A variable valve lift mechanism.
All use the presence of engine oil supplied constantly while engine running and supplied under some pressure to be able to perform their intended function.
AS for the OP not recommending Delvac oil my apologies. I've been away from the thread and relying upon my memory and didn't bother reading through it again.
Sincerely,
Macster.
07-15-2009, 04:48 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Wording not clear I admit at beginning. Not sure what I was thinking.
As for link to sources of oil serving as something other than a lubricant and cooling fluid this aspect of oil has been covered in several of the popular USA published car mags (Excellence and one aimed at BMW owners, GM High Performance magazine) and one or two UK published mags as well.
Do you fail to see how a hydraulic lifter, a zero-valve lash device is not a hydraulic device? Or a oil pressurized chain tensioner/guide? A variable valve timing mechanism? A variable valve lift mechanism.
All use the presence of engine oil supplied constantly while engine running and supplied under some pressure to be able to perform their intended function.
AS for the OP not recommending Delvac oil my apologies. I've been away from the thread and relying upon my memory and didn't bother reading through it again.
Sincerely,
Macster.
As for link to sources of oil serving as something other than a lubricant and cooling fluid this aspect of oil has been covered in several of the popular USA published car mags (Excellence and one aimed at BMW owners, GM High Performance magazine) and one or two UK published mags as well.
Do you fail to see how a hydraulic lifter, a zero-valve lash device is not a hydraulic device? Or a oil pressurized chain tensioner/guide? A variable valve timing mechanism? A variable valve lift mechanism.
All use the presence of engine oil supplied constantly while engine running and supplied under some pressure to be able to perform their intended function.
AS for the OP not recommending Delvac oil my apologies. I've been away from the thread and relying upon my memory and didn't bother reading through it again.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Regarding variable valve timing (Variocam and Variocam +) I'm very familiar with the way they work. I don't understand what you're saying in the above hi-lighted passage that you wrote. I did extensive study on this subject, in order to simplify it and include pertinent information in my book, The Used 911 Story, 8th Edition, published in 2006.
07-15-2009, 06:01 PM
#27
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
[QUOTE=
Furthermore, Mobil 1 5w-40 oil is not approved by Porsche for use in its gasoline engines.
Sincerely,
Macster.[/QUOTE]
Umm I am not an oil expert, on the other hand according to the Porsche Technical Bulletin published here:http://www.wrightune.co.uk/downloads/approved_oils.pdf
Mobil 1 5W-40 IS approved for Porsche gasoline engines as is Castrol Syntec 5W-40 and many others, some of which are not available in North America.
Furthermore, Mobil 1 5w-40 oil is not approved by Porsche for use in its gasoline engines.
Sincerely,
Macster.[/QUOTE]
Umm I am not an oil expert, on the other hand according to the Porsche Technical Bulletin published here:http://www.wrightune.co.uk/downloads/approved_oils.pdf
Mobil 1 5W-40 IS approved for Porsche gasoline engines as is Castrol Syntec 5W-40 and many others, some of which are not available in North America.
07-15-2009, 07:59 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Umm I am not an oil expert, on the other hand according to the Porsche Technical Bulletin published here:http://www.wrightune.co.uk/downloads/approved_oils.pdf
Mobil 1 5W-40 IS approved for Porsche gasoline engines as is Castrol Syntec 5W-40 and many others, some of which are not available in North America.
Mobil 1 5W-40 IS approved for Porsche gasoline engines as is Castrol Syntec 5W-40 and many others, some of which are not available in North America.
07-15-2009, 08:39 PM
#29
Drifting
Hi Bob , that link about the Porsche oil recommendations is way out of date 1/05 and is printed by PCNA , who has a copy of the current list , either 08 or 09 and printed by Porsche AG .
Regards
BB
Regards
BB
07-15-2009, 08:47 PM
#30
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Jet - have you any evidence that Porsche has changed their recommendation? The 05 list I cited was published by PAG which is why all the foreign oil brands were included.
Didn't do an extensive search but here is the 2006 version. note that this one also says PCNA but clearly the origin is Europe. I can't imagine Atlanta bothering to spec Russian oil!
http://kiyor32.cocolog-nifty.com/gt3...-List-2006.pdf
Didn't do an extensive search but here is the 2006 version. note that this one also says PCNA but clearly the origin is Europe. I can't imagine Atlanta bothering to spec Russian oil!
http://kiyor32.cocolog-nifty.com/gt3...-List-2006.pdf
