Nathaniel

Potential first time Porsche owner here with a few questions, hope nobody minds. I`m looking at Boxsters, and I have a few questions about the engine failures/ RMS issues. First off, what is it that is usually prone to failure? Is there a specific component within the engine/ ancillaries that gives way leading to these failures? Is there anything that can be done in the way of preventative maintenance? I want a Boxster, but hate the idea of driving it around for a while just waiting for the engine to crap out on me. Has it been established yet if there are particular years that are less prone to failure? Has Porsche ever addressed this? From what I have read/ heard, it seems that the RMS on some of these cars have had some issues. If I go for a car that had it`s engine replaced due to this failure, are these new engines any less prone to future failure?

Any insight would be appreciated. I looked around this forum a bit beforehand and didn`t seem to find what I was looking for.

pl

all u need to know:

http://www.986faq.com/

HHPorscheTech

The RMS problem Porsche has been working on and the latest release is a new seal made from PFTE, also the recommend new crankcase bolts (4) and new intermidiate shaft bolts (3). They have been known to have intermidiate shaft failure, but Porsche has addressed this with a new beefier design.

Macster

A few -- the exact number only Porsche knows -- very early Boxster engines received sleeves to address a casting problem that was reducing cast machine output/yield at just the wrong time -- when initial demand the then new Boxster model.

Some sleeved engines -- some experts believe that all sleeved engines will eventually fail -- will see a sleeve work loose with catastrophic results.

An earlier Boxster with lots of miles and no record of having its engine replaced probably does not have a sleeved engine.

Low, real low mileage early Boxsters are suspect. Out of warranty and not with original owner, I do not believe Porsche will replace these engines under any secret warranty, good will warranty.

Later model Boxsters were assembled with depending upon who you talk to: bad seal; seal with wrong material; damaged during installation seal; any combination of the preceding.

For whatever reason if this seal leaks, it results in most cases an unsightly but usually mild oil leak.

To replace the seal requires tranny drop.

At the same time as the RMS was being fixed, Porsche recommends the intermediate shaft seal / o-ring be upgraded with a new piece of hardware that replaces one o-ring seal with a triple-lipped seal. Along with this improved seal new bolts that are treated with a thread micro-sealer which is supposed to prevent oil from seeping past the bolt threads and out the engine.

Some believe that the intermediate shaft leaking either past the o-ring or past the original bolt threads accounts for the bulk of RMS leaks. The intermediate shaft is directly underneath the crankshaft and if one or both are leaking one can't usually tell which one is leaking.

In some RMS fixes, the new/improved seal developed a leak. It was found in a few cases replacing the seal again did the trick. The assumption was old seal stock was used or the new improved seal was damaged during installation or improperly installed.

However, a few cases it was found the crankshaft was out of position enough so that no seal could be expected to work properly. Even if one would live with the the leak engine failure could likely follow.

So, some engines were replaced.

There is another problem that has been blamed on an undersized intermediate shaft bearing that fails and if not caught in time -- one sometimes has just seconds to "save" the engine from fatal damage -- renders the engine scrap.

The auto press claims this inadequate bearing was addressed about mid model year 2002. That is, engines built in the 1st half of 2001 could very likely have this weak bearing, while engines built later would have the upgraded bearing. (I note for the record my '02 was built late in 2001 and has now just over 170,000 miles on its intermediate shaft with so far -- knock wood -- no signs of any troubles in that area. It also has around 150,000 miles on a replacement RMS and upgraded intermediate shaft seal/bolts with no signs of any troubles in that area either.)

Used to be if the bearing failed -- and the intermediate shaft was usually the component blamed -- the engine would be replaced under warranty or in very few cases out of warranty under good will.

Now, word is that if car under warranty and if bearing failure caught in time, the engine is torn down and determination made if engine can be salvaged at dealership. If so, because cost of this is less than new engine dealerships are given go ahead to "rebuild" engine.

If car out of warranty...even if engine salvagable, one's looking at a pretty big repair bill.

Were I looking for a used Boxster, I'd be looking for as new model as I could afford and one with some warranty left.

What you want to try to avoid -- though this unfortunately paints all cars with the same brush -- are older very low mileage cars, low mileage enough that inherent problems may not have had time to manifest themselves yet be out of any warranty coverage. (I know a guy who has a '00 S with barely 20,000 miles on it...Could be a time bomb.)

Even newer cars with low mileage but out of warranty due to time -- and not mileage -- are a bit suspect.

2002 and later higher mileage cars that have been well-maintained -- following an agressive oil/filter schedule -- unmodified and with no track time -- are probably that safest bet.

What you want is a car that has been treated well, has had no accident/paint damage, and has enough miles on it with the thinking that any inherent problems with the engine would have appeared by now and been fixed with typically engine replacement.

As far as I know there's not anything a driver/owner can do to avoid the sleeve failure problem, RMS/intermediate shaft leaks, out of position crankshaft, or intermediate shaft bearing failures.

There seems to be no coorelation between how car driven, treated -- though thrashed to an inch of their lives cars are a poor risk no matter what and could very likely manifest other symptoms that are just as severe and thus rendering onto one a huge repair bill.

Sincerely,

Macster.

J-RAD

Detailed answers provided in previous posts/links.

Here's the Reader's Digest version:

* RMS issues do not equate to engine failure.

* In almost every case, RMS issues amount to little more than an annoyance. It's not right, oil causes a mess, but it's rarely a sign of a "catastrophic" issue - engine replacement. Average to repair RMS at the dealership seems to be ~$1,200.

* Don't let the stories scare you. I can count on one hand with fingers to spare, the number of engine replacements linked to RMS (or any other real issue for that matter) that I've read about. I've never personally met anyone that encountered such an issue - neither have most here. It's kind of like - "I know someone, that knows someone that had an issue..." The two dealerships I've spoken with in my area say they have never needed to replace an engine but acknowledge that they are aware of situations where it's occured and the possibility does exist.

* The Boxster is a very reliable car.

* Long story short, while RMS something to look for, it's not something to lose any sleep over.

When it comes time to make a decision, just make sure to get a PPI. Good luck, you'll love the car.

Nathaniel

I wasn`t ever thinking that the RMS issues were directly linked to the engine failure. The only reason I brought up the RMS issues was out of curiosity as for whether or not cars that had had their engines replaced due to the RMS issues were any less prone to future failure.

I am very familiar with RMS issues (I have a Land Rover Defeneder 90) and understand the issues involved with that. I`m not really worried about that. I am more worried about the potential for engine failure, but I guess if I stay away from a sleeved engine I should be ok? Short of taking the block apart, is there any way to tell whether or not the engine has sleeves?

I appreciate everyones input so far. I am looking at a black on black 2002 Boxster S this weekend.

Cincy_Ron

Macster,

Thanks for taking the time to compose that answer. Good info.

Macster

have a sleeved engine.

While I haven't directly experienced any severe engine failure or troubles -- bar the very close call dealing with a failing air/oil separator before knowledge of it was known outside of Porsche and by a few dealership techs perhaps -- there have been more than a few posts by those directly affected, either reporting engine failure or asking about details on how to best approach Porsche to try to get some help with what undoubtly was going to be a very big repair bill.

The engines weren't blowing up right and left, but I there for a while the memory of such a posting/report was not yet gone from memory before another arrived. Occasionally UK Porsche mags would have a letter from some unfortunate soul whose Boxster engine had failed and was seeking advice. Remember too in the UK warranty mileage and time was and is less than it is for us in the USA.

One of the first articles I read about Boxsters was one early one's engine failing and when the owner found out the cost to put it right decided instead to swap in a 3.6l engine from a Carrera.

In another case, with a Carrera, the long term test car's engine failed very early and was replaced only to have the replacement engine fail soon after. And these long termers weren't thrashed from day one either, but were treated to a proper break-in. (Most Porsche specific (and Mercedes, BMW too) auto mags treat their long termers to break-in according the owners manual.)

The out of position crankshaft problem requiring engine replacement was real and a few owners and their engines experienced it.

Some argue the online postings are biased towards problems and there's some truth to that. Otoh, not everyone who has Boxster problems posts online at all.

If you can find no reason to reject the S then have it checked by an experienced tech knowledgable about these cars and the rare but real shortcomings, foibles.

If the RMS area looks dry, and doesn't show signs of having been cleaned, then RMS likely ok. If real low miles though... Mine didn't start leaking until I had over 20,000 miles on car. Others have leaked earlier, some have waited until almost end of warranty: 4 years or 50,000 miles.

If engine has had RMS serviced, be sure you get paperwork and any warranty that covers the work/repair assigned/transferred to you.

If RMS leaking, insist RMS be fixed at dealership/reputable shop that knows about the crankshaft position issue and intermediate shaft o-ring/bolt upgrade and with the condition you walk with no obligation to buy car should crankshaft be found out of position and engine needing replacement.

Or if you prefer -- and there's something to recommend this course of action -- if RMS leaking, showing signs of leaking, walk away. There is always another car.

Sincerely,

Macster.

Nathaniel

Should I end up with an earlier Boxster, should I just have the shaft o-ring and bolt upgrade taken care of as a precaution if it hasn`t been done? Otherwise, I take it this was an issue on earlier cars mainly; when did the upgraded engines start comming from the factory?

How can I tell whether or not an engine has sleeves? Is there any designation by VIN number or particular dates that the sleeved engines were made?

Unfortunately, I probably can`t spring for a car with a warranty, but so far I am looking at 2000-2002`s in the 45-60k mile range ($18-22k).

Also, I found one Boxster S in particular that I like, but it`s at 57k miles. Is it fair for me to try to beat down the price a bit due to the fact that the 60k service is comming up real soon?

J-RAD

Get a PPI done by a mechanic that knows Boxsters. If there are no leaks and the car looks to be in good condition. Go for it. Again, even what Macster is saying needs to be viewed with some perspective. Overall, the cars truly are very solid.

As for the price, I don't know what they're asking (as a reference, a friend just sold his '01 'S' w/ 19K miles for ~$29K) but certainly use the 60K maintenance, and any other potential items (ie tires, PPI results, etc.), as a bargaining tool. I'm not in that mileage range yet so I haven't really looked at what service is done at 60K but my 30K maintenance by my mechanic (an indy shop) ran me ~$600, if I recall correctly.

Macster

nor any signs of having been cleaned to perhaps hide/mask leakage either the RMS and intermediate shaft o-ring/bolts have been addressed or the engine came from the factory with the upgraded seal/o-ring/hardware or they aren't leaking and probably won't ever leak.

If car equipped with manual transmission if a leak does develop you can usually wait until new clutch necessary then have RMS, o-ring/bolts and clutch taken car of in one whack.

You can't know for sure if an engine has sleeves. Porsche hasn't -- afaik -- released any VIN numbers but word is -- and postings on Porsche Boxster web sites appear to bear this out -- later model year cars and certainly from MY 2000 and later do not have sleeves.

Sleeves were applied to the just a few -- relatively speaking -- of the very first/early engines coming off the assembly line. One of at least two casting machines was acting up and some of the engine castings from it were sleeved. The other casting machine was just fine. I believe the sleeve issue is limited to perhaps just a few of the first production run engines.

You can use the nearness/necessity of a 60K service to adjust your valuation of the car. Whether the seller will see it your way depends upon several things.

A PPI is a must because there can be other things that can be just as painful to find out about after you buy the car as a RMS leak or intermediate shaft o-ring/bolt leak.

General rule of thumb buying a used car is to have set aside 10% of the car's purchase price to take care of "things" that can and do pop up after you buy the car. Even if the car passes a PPI with flying colors, there's no guarantee the coolant pump -- for instance -- won't start leaking the week after you buy the car.

If your filtering/selection process is good, if the PPI is good and with a little luck, you can leave that 10% in the bank after you buy the car.

If you have to spend it chances are it is a sign you need to improve your used car buying skills. Not being mean. We all have learned the hard way buying used cars.

What you want to avoid is paying top dollar for a car that is represented as being in excellent condition only to find out it is not and then having to spend more money on top what you already paid to bring car up to the condition you initially thought you were getting.

Sincerely,

Macster.

cdodkin

I'm your worst nightmare then.

My '97 Boxster - new engine at 9,000
Wife's '99 Boxster - new engine at 2,500
Friend's '98 Boxster - new engine (out of warranty) at just over 20,000
Friend's '01 Boxster - new engine under 20,000

I have one other Boxster owning friend with a '98 with over 120,000 - so maybe he balances things out!

Of course he does have RMS leak - but he's just happy it's still going!

That's the great thing about stats - my experience means f-all, as does any other individual's - but it's still a great story.

Nathaniel

So I take it I am probably best off going with a higher milage car that`s tried and proven

cdodkin

If only.... - this one failed at 92,000

Same block failure weak point as has already been highlighted.

http://glenn986s.zoomshare.com/0.html

Can't tell you what to buy - but when I went for a 996, I went for an 03 model year rather than anything earlier.

J-RAD

Like most things from CA, you're obviously some sort of freak...and not allowed anywhere near my car!