Fuel Additives
07-13-2004, 08:13 PM
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Fuel Additives
There has been some real valuable input on oil so I thought why not ask about snake oil in the fuel. I have used the Chevron stuff in the past . I was given a great endorsement on the Lucas fuel additive. Suppose to do everything, clean, lubricate ,you know snake oil stuff.
07-14-2004, 12:08 AM
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Hi Turboflyer,
I do not wish to "dominate" the exchange this issue in any way as I am in no doubt there are a number of very good products on the market. And persons with good knowledge of such
This was a reply by me ( 1 of 2) on Landshark (Australian 928 List) about a month or so ago about this issue. I hope it is of interest
Starts;
1 - What it does;
Imagine Techron Concentrate as a very advanced detergent charge targeted at organic type deposits that form either from the fuel itself and within the fuel delivery system and those deposits that occur immediately before, during and after the combustion process
It is a little more than this of course
Fuel system deposits can cause a variety of problems - one being a build up
around the injector's tip. The results can be reduced power missing at idle
and the like. There are a number of other symptoms too of course
Most modern unleaded fuels contain integrated detergent,dispersant,
anti-rust,anti-corrosion additive packages to prevent such things and are
quite efficient at the task - some are simply better than others! AS1876 is
the fuel quality minimum standard
Deposits form on the intake valve head gradually causing it to operate at a
higher temp. (causing valve heat/seat/sealing problems) and hindering flow. Within the combustion chamber these deposits can interfere with anti-knock sensor function and cause pre-ignition etc. and etc. They may also cause ignition system retarding
Some combustion chamber designs may be more prone to this than others
Techron appears to be significantly better than the other fuel system
additives at cleaning up the valve head and combustion chamber deposits
2 - Why do we need it?
Deposits will gradually form within the fuel delivery system and within the
combustion chamber/valve head regions. These are normal but in most cases accumulative - regardless of the type of fuel used
(THIS IS A GOOD REASON FOR AN "ITALIAN TUNE UP")
The "Italian tune up" can "knock off" some of these accumulated deposits and solve the odd problem or two
The rest of the deposits can only be chemically (or mechanically) dispersed!
A fuel system cleaner with a combustion camber deposit cleansing additive
should be used regularly and according to the intructions on it's container
Porsche's recommendations make sense to me - they recommended Techron Concentrate. I have used it for many many years and a very long time before my first 928 "arrived"
A good time to use such a treatment is a week or two before an oil change!
Ends!
I have another Post on the background to Techron and I can e-mail it privately if it is of any interest
Regards
Doug
I do not wish to "dominate" the exchange this issue in any way as I am in no doubt there are a number of very good products on the market. And persons with good knowledge of such
This was a reply by me ( 1 of 2) on Landshark (Australian 928 List) about a month or so ago about this issue. I hope it is of interest
Starts;
1 - What it does;
Imagine Techron Concentrate as a very advanced detergent charge targeted at organic type deposits that form either from the fuel itself and within the fuel delivery system and those deposits that occur immediately before, during and after the combustion process
It is a little more than this of course
Fuel system deposits can cause a variety of problems - one being a build up
around the injector's tip. The results can be reduced power missing at idle
and the like. There are a number of other symptoms too of course
Most modern unleaded fuels contain integrated detergent,dispersant,
anti-rust,anti-corrosion additive packages to prevent such things and are
quite efficient at the task - some are simply better than others! AS1876 is
the fuel quality minimum standard
Deposits form on the intake valve head gradually causing it to operate at a
higher temp. (causing valve heat/seat/sealing problems) and hindering flow. Within the combustion chamber these deposits can interfere with anti-knock sensor function and cause pre-ignition etc. and etc. They may also cause ignition system retarding
Some combustion chamber designs may be more prone to this than others
Techron appears to be significantly better than the other fuel system
additives at cleaning up the valve head and combustion chamber deposits
2 - Why do we need it?
Deposits will gradually form within the fuel delivery system and within the
combustion chamber/valve head regions. These are normal but in most cases accumulative - regardless of the type of fuel used
(THIS IS A GOOD REASON FOR AN "ITALIAN TUNE UP")
The "Italian tune up" can "knock off" some of these accumulated deposits and solve the odd problem or two
The rest of the deposits can only be chemically (or mechanically) dispersed!
A fuel system cleaner with a combustion camber deposit cleansing additive
should be used regularly and according to the intructions on it's container
Porsche's recommendations make sense to me - they recommended Techron Concentrate. I have used it for many many years and a very long time before my first 928 "arrived"
A good time to use such a treatment is a week or two before an oil change!
Ends!
I have another Post on the background to Techron and I can e-mail it privately if it is of any interest
Regards
Doug
07-14-2004, 12:46 AM
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Porsche's recommendations make sense to me - they recommended Techron Concentrate.
Ok,
Now I am confused...
The Porsche Boxster manual says not to use any fuel or oil additives.....
Ok,
Now I am confused...
The Porsche Boxster manual says not to use any fuel or oil additives.....
07-14-2004, 03:35 AM
#4
Burning Brakes
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Hi,
pologuy - the post I made concerned the Porsche 928 so all comments regarding Porsche's recommendations for using Techron clearly apply to that vehicle
TECHRON
The treat rate for the 928 is;
1 - Fill tank
2 - Pour 20 ounces of Techron into tank
3 - Drive vehicle until half empty
4 - Refill tank
5 - Repeat the process 2 additional times
6 - To keep system clean add 20 ounces of Techron after 5 tank refills. Never use more than 20ounces of Techron per 3000miles
Techron is not technically an additive (such as an Octane Booster, VS Lubricant and such things) but rather it is a fuel and combustion area/valve cleaner
I use it in a wide variety of engines and as directed on the Techron container. Consult your Manual before using any "additive" of any sort
Techron is an extremely good product when used as recommended and I can only say that it is very effective and has been so for nearly three decades
OIL ADDITIVES
It is most certainly VERY UNWISE to use any of them regardless of the hype. If you use a good quality lubricant as specified by Porsche you are doing the right thing and nothing else is required. Adding oil "additives" to a modern lubricant defeats the Oil blender's intents and indeed may result in undesirable consequences due to chemical conflict and etc.
Regards
Doug
pologuy - the post I made concerned the Porsche 928 so all comments regarding Porsche's recommendations for using Techron clearly apply to that vehicle
TECHRON
The treat rate for the 928 is;
1 - Fill tank
2 - Pour 20 ounces of Techron into tank
3 - Drive vehicle until half empty
4 - Refill tank
5 - Repeat the process 2 additional times
6 - To keep system clean add 20 ounces of Techron after 5 tank refills. Never use more than 20ounces of Techron per 3000miles
Techron is not technically an additive (such as an Octane Booster, VS Lubricant and such things) but rather it is a fuel and combustion area/valve cleaner
I use it in a wide variety of engines and as directed on the Techron container. Consult your Manual before using any "additive" of any sort
Techron is an extremely good product when used as recommended and I can only say that it is very effective and has been so for nearly three decades
OIL ADDITIVES
It is most certainly VERY UNWISE to use any of them regardless of the hype. If you use a good quality lubricant as specified by Porsche you are doing the right thing and nothing else is required. Adding oil "additives" to a modern lubricant defeats the Oil blender's intents and indeed may result in undesirable consequences due to chemical conflict and etc.
Regards
Doug
07-14-2004, 11:10 AM
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I've read in a few places that techron (and other cleaners) slightly break down motor oil so it's best to use 1-2 tanks before your next oil change.
I dump a bottle into every car about 600 miles before their next oil change. It made a very noticeable difference in my little'ol Scirocco.
I dump a bottle into every car about 600 miles before their next oil change. It made a very noticeable difference in my little'ol Scirocco.
07-14-2004, 11:16 AM
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Doug,
If I may.... the answer to the question of application for the Boxster motor is in your post "Some combustion chamber designs may be more prone to this than others".
A bit of background here - the 928's V8 was designed in an era when "swirl" was the rage - the mixing of air & fuel thru the intake and in the cylinder(s) was just becoming an issue, and Mays at Jaguar had some success in promoting a good burn with good power delivery & emissions with what later was called the HSC (High Swirl Combustion) design. The "problem" with this is that the fuel injector tip (among other areas) is rather well bathed with a mix of burned & unburned fuel/air during each cycle, thus promoting the build up you mention.
The Boxster's motor (as well as most "newer" designs) has less of this as an issue, as there is a better understanding of flow - mostly due to good engine development using simulations.
Still, I believe that my Boxster's motor, wayyyyy into it's lifespan, will have some buildup that could impede performance - but that will be in the thousands of hours range..... some years from now.
J
If I may.... the answer to the question of application for the Boxster motor is in your post "Some combustion chamber designs may be more prone to this than others".
A bit of background here - the 928's V8 was designed in an era when "swirl" was the rage - the mixing of air & fuel thru the intake and in the cylinder(s) was just becoming an issue, and Mays at Jaguar had some success in promoting a good burn with good power delivery & emissions with what later was called the HSC (High Swirl Combustion) design. The "problem" with this is that the fuel injector tip (among other areas) is rather well bathed with a mix of burned & unburned fuel/air during each cycle, thus promoting the build up you mention.
The Boxster's motor (as well as most "newer" designs) has less of this as an issue, as there is a better understanding of flow - mostly due to good engine development using simulations.
Still, I believe that my Boxster's motor, wayyyyy into it's lifespan, will have some buildup that could impede performance - but that will be in the thousands of hours range..... some years from now.
J
07-14-2004, 11:05 PM
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Burning Brakes
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Hi Jeff,
you are correct about combustion chamber design but these issues can become clouded and confused. They are of course very complex
The Techron Concentrate I mentioned in my first post is not just an injector cleaner - it is a fuel system and combustion system cleaner. It is still part of emission control durability testing under the auspices of the Autorities in NA I believe. I was present at GM's test facility (Milford-Michigan) when the emission controls were first seriously field tested for durability in 1975
Combustion chamber design did indeed go through much development and some famous names like Mays, Weslake, Cosworth etc were very influencial. CAD/CAM were unheard of then!
I did my initial training with BMC in NZ and in England so know that era well. Gas flow was a big topic in those days and many irregulaities in both design and production caused many in-use issues like pre-ignition, deposit build up and etc
This all changed dramatically when emission controls were progressivly introduced in the late 1960s and onwards. These were driven by environmental demands in the USA and Europe
Today the modern cylinder head (combustion chamber and other such factors/components) is a product of CAD and certain similaries exist across the board
What has changed too is the formulation of fuels. From leaded to unleaded to high octane unleaded and hybrid fuels with ethanol etc added at varying levels. Ethanol is of course "old technology"
Fuel's formulation in this country is the subject of very rigid production controls and Australian Standards including the content level of cleaning agents and etc.. This helps to ensure emission control durability
Today we have as well the increasing desire for better fuel economy,longeveity and emerging technolgies involving valve actuation timing and others
These changes when combined have resulted in a changed culture regarding engine management, maintenance and longevity
Many factors impact on fuel and combustion system cleanliness such as;
a) fuel quality (wholesaler/retailer/end user)
b) climate
c) vehicle use (such things as; is the vehicle driven every day, is the fuel tank kept mostly full, is WOT used often, geography and etc)
(for instance some electric fuel pumps seize due to rust on their internal workings - from condensation or possibly using fuel contaminated by moisture)
d) and etc - there are a number of others
The bottom line is really that if you always use good quality fuel purchased from a major supplier fuel/combustion system contamination will be minimised. Combine this with the three factors listed (at least) above and it will determine whether such things are really needed for your car
As for the 928 and the combustion chamber design;
2v 928s have a wedge shaped chamber with a Weslake "peak" on the long side. The compression ratio was 8.5/1
4v 928s follow the latest practice having two squish areas. They use a system with two resonance chambers - the two chambers giving two torque peaks. The compression ratio is 10/1
I hope this helps
It is important to consult your user manual and use any product as it was intended
Regards
Doug
you are correct about combustion chamber design but these issues can become clouded and confused. They are of course very complex
The Techron Concentrate I mentioned in my first post is not just an injector cleaner - it is a fuel system and combustion system cleaner. It is still part of emission control durability testing under the auspices of the Autorities in NA I believe. I was present at GM's test facility (Milford-Michigan) when the emission controls were first seriously field tested for durability in 1975
Combustion chamber design did indeed go through much development and some famous names like Mays, Weslake, Cosworth etc were very influencial. CAD/CAM were unheard of then!
I did my initial training with BMC in NZ and in England so know that era well. Gas flow was a big topic in those days and many irregulaities in both design and production caused many in-use issues like pre-ignition, deposit build up and etc
This all changed dramatically when emission controls were progressivly introduced in the late 1960s and onwards. These were driven by environmental demands in the USA and Europe
Today the modern cylinder head (combustion chamber and other such factors/components) is a product of CAD and certain similaries exist across the board
What has changed too is the formulation of fuels. From leaded to unleaded to high octane unleaded and hybrid fuels with ethanol etc added at varying levels. Ethanol is of course "old technology"
Fuel's formulation in this country is the subject of very rigid production controls and Australian Standards including the content level of cleaning agents and etc.. This helps to ensure emission control durability
Today we have as well the increasing desire for better fuel economy,longeveity and emerging technolgies involving valve actuation timing and others
These changes when combined have resulted in a changed culture regarding engine management, maintenance and longevity
Many factors impact on fuel and combustion system cleanliness such as;
a) fuel quality (wholesaler/retailer/end user)
b) climate
c) vehicle use (such things as; is the vehicle driven every day, is the fuel tank kept mostly full, is WOT used often, geography and etc)
(for instance some electric fuel pumps seize due to rust on their internal workings - from condensation or possibly using fuel contaminated by moisture)
d) and etc - there are a number of others
The bottom line is really that if you always use good quality fuel purchased from a major supplier fuel/combustion system contamination will be minimised. Combine this with the three factors listed (at least) above and it will determine whether such things are really needed for your car
As for the 928 and the combustion chamber design;
2v 928s have a wedge shaped chamber with a Weslake "peak" on the long side. The compression ratio was 8.5/1
4v 928s follow the latest practice having two squish areas. They use a system with two resonance chambers - the two chambers giving two torque peaks. The compression ratio is 10/1
I hope this helps
It is important to consult your user manual and use any product as it was intended
Regards
Doug
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07-15-2004, 10:00 AM
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Doug,
Careful sir, you're showing your age!
Most of my experience with the names Mays, et. al. were in history texts, not contemporary!!!!
You're correct. The cleaners are still used during EPA emissions system durability testing. As an aside, Porsche's Wiessach is on of the few "offshore" testing facilities approved by the US EPA for certification purposes.
As to earlier engine design, it's amazing to me that so much was done without the use of good CAD/CAM - that speaks highly for the outstanding talent found in that era. It seems to me that a certain level has been attained, and now much of the focus is on fuels.
The big issues in fuels (at least for the US) are in the proliferation of "boutique" fuels and in fuel supply/delivery. Believe it or not, there are now over 50 different blends required under local laws in the US - and that is driving both automakers & fuel suppliers insane, while the various liability issues have "forced" the sale of most refineries, suppliers, and delivery units, thus fracturing the supply chain.
Enough of that rant, though..... now I have to go for a Pcar drive just to settle down.
J
Careful sir, you're showing your age!
Most of my experience with the names Mays, et. al. were in history texts, not contemporary!!!!You're correct. The cleaners are still used during EPA emissions system durability testing. As an aside, Porsche's Wiessach is on of the few "offshore" testing facilities approved by the US EPA for certification purposes.
As to earlier engine design, it's amazing to me that so much was done without the use of good CAD/CAM - that speaks highly for the outstanding talent found in that era. It seems to me that a certain level has been attained, and now much of the focus is on fuels.
The big issues in fuels (at least for the US) are in the proliferation of "boutique" fuels and in fuel supply/delivery. Believe it or not, there are now over 50 different blends required under local laws in the US - and that is driving both automakers & fuel suppliers insane, while the various liability issues have "forced" the sale of most refineries, suppliers, and delivery units, thus fracturing the supply chain.
Enough of that rant, though..... now I have to go for a Pcar drive just to settle down.
J
07-15-2004, 04:31 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
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Hi Jeff,
thanks for the great reply
Are you in the Auto Industry?
I hope you enjoyed yout Pcar drive, I've just come back from an early morning (5am) run thru the uncut cane fields (no Kangaroos - or Hiway Patrols to worry about) 200km/h is so easy in the Pcar - and safe!
Kind Regards
Doug
thanks for the great reply
Are you in the Auto Industry?
I hope you enjoyed yout Pcar drive, I've just come back from an early morning (5am) run thru the uncut cane fields (no Kangaroos - or Hiway Patrols to worry about) 200km/h is so easy in the Pcar - and safe!
Kind Regards
Doug
07-16-2004, 10:36 AM
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Doug,
To your first question, Yes.... at times. I've had the good fortune to have worked with a variety of companies on a very wide range of issues, plus I've family in the oil/fuels business (guess I'm not going to get many invites from environmental groups).
It's been quite nice here as well - but no cane fields, no Kangaroos (????), but there is an occasional Ostrich (no kidding - there's an ostrich farm nearby), along with Law Enforcement. Speeds are well below 200 KpH.... but at least the back roads in No. Virginia can be entertaining!
Take care & have a good weekend,
J
PS - excellent posts, by the way
To your first question, Yes.... at times. I've had the good fortune to have worked with a variety of companies on a very wide range of issues, plus I've family in the oil/fuels business (guess I'm not going to get many invites from environmental groups).
It's been quite nice here as well - but no cane fields, no Kangaroos (????), but there is an occasional Ostrich (no kidding - there's an ostrich farm nearby), along with Law Enforcement. Speeds are well below 200 KpH.... but at least the back roads in No. Virginia can be entertaining!
Take care & have a good weekend,
J
PS - excellent posts, by the way
