TTGator

Our local PCA chapter got a tech talk on the IMS bearing from LN Engineering... if/how/when to replace. Do you agree?

You Tube

elgy

The cross-post on 986forum has been getting some comments. I wouldn't let that guy near my lawn mower let alone my porsche... and the lawn mower is the manual push type .
http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-g...tml#post639441

TTGator

yeah… it’s been interesting feedback for sure. Looking forward to hearing the response from LN.

Charles Navarro

HBI Automotive's service tech who spoke at this local PCA Tech event has mistaken the TuneRS DOF "direct oil feed" for the IMS Solution. It is a shame that someone in this position was provided a platform to provide incorrect information to this group and to see it being further propagated on the internet.


LN Engineering does not manufacture, use, or recommend the TuneRS DOF. He does mention using our IMS Retrofit ceramic hybrid bearings, but also incorrectly states he pulls off the grease seal to allow the engine oil to lubricate the bearing when in fact the IMS Retrofit has always used a bearing without a grease seal. As the IMS bearing is submerged in oil, a pressurized oil feed to the ball bearing is not required in our opinion.

The issue with oil volume as mentioned by the service tech causing leaks is a non-issue with the IMS Solution. The orifice size in the journal that feeds the plain bearing used by the IMS Solution limits oil flow and does not cause a measurable drop in system pressure and most certainly does not flood the IMS area with oil as the tech states the DOF does.


He is correct that on a 997 (or any Boxster, Cayman, or 911 from model year 2006-2008) the IMS bearing is not serviceable and indeed in that situation the grease seal should be removed off the factory 6305 non-serviceable ims bearing as this is something we have recommended for many years as preventative maintenance for these engines.

I do need to clarify that he states the incorrect service interval - 50k miles was for the classic single row IMS Retrofit that was superseded by the single row pro many years ago and has not been sold since 2014. Service intervals for all our dual row bearings used in the IMS Retrofit is 6 years or 75,000 miles. However, the IMS Solution is a permanent replacement that uses an oil fed plain bearing and that bearing has no service interval and is designed for the life of the engine.

He also goes as far to say that if the original bearing has not failed by 50k miles that they never do and that is 100% false and could not be any further from the truth.

The tech states that the crankcase is under pressure of one bar which is also completely false - the crankcase is under vacuum. The M96 and M97 engine runs under vacuum at 4-6 inches of h20 column, however I believe what he was trying to say is that since the engine is a wet sump engine and the IMS is located at the bottom of the engine that if there is no grease seal on the bearing that the oil in the sump will lubricate the bearing. And this would be correct and is the reason why the IMS Retrofit has no grease seal on it. However, the IMS Solution requires pressurized oil since it is a plain bearing like your connecting rod and main bearings and would not function without pressurized oil. This does not mean that the IMS Solution is going to leak because it uses pressured oil to lubricate the bearing. That is the furthest from the truth.

The tech does state that it is his job to give 100% of the information but the information he's given isn't 100% correct here.

TTGator

Thank you for all the clarifications!

paulofto

Now that is how you relate proper information. Clear, concise and completely understandable. Thank you Charles.

TTGator

I can't figure out how to edit my original post on this forum, so I'll just reply here... After HBI Auto refused to re-shoot the video or to even say anything about LN Engineering, I decided to just re-edit the original video and add the clarifications from above. Now let me know your thoughts

Charles Navarro

Thank you for taking the time to put this video together to set the record straight.

TTGator

Yessir! Happy to help get correct info out there.

ZuffenZeus

Thank you for providing this updated video. I flipped out of my chair when I first saw the original video.

I would like to add some thoughts to the whole "sucks water right out of the air like crazy" section. Please chime in if I haven't gathered the information correctly.

It's my understanding that engines that sit for long periods of time can become contaminated with condensation inside the crankcase which could turn into a liquid state over time. We've seen the simple byproduct of condensation many times when people let their cars sit for months, go out to check the oil, and then notice the chocolate milkshake looking froth inside the oil filler tube or on the dipstick. It's always been recommended here on Rennlist that people drive their cars for at least 30 minutes regularly to burn off any condensation inside the engine and to "exercise" their cars.. Now we all know from basic chemistry, oil by nature does not mix with water because of the hydrogen bonds thus oil it's "hydrophobic", but it's my understanding that engine oil with an additive package can become somewhat hygroscopic in nature which could absorb some condensation (and impurities) thus negatively affecting it's lubricating properties. Up to 300 ppm is acceptable for most engines. Not sure what the Porsche standard is. Engine oil can also become very acidic from combustion, but that another story for another day.

Now, the way that the shop foreman explains it on the video, it seems like these engines are going to fill up with gallons of water if you don't drive them.

He says, "[Like brake fluid], It SUCKS water right out of the air like crazy!" hahahaha

Definitely, engine oil is NOT hydraulic brake fluid. That dude really needs to be careful using analogies in a meeting like this.

Oh, and I love the whole fact checker graphic with game show buzzer. Great job!

stl_986

Any engine can get condensation. Many variables come into play. A car sitting in FL may have a higher chance then one say sitting in AZ. Sitting in a climate controlled garage or storage may be less likely then one sitting outside in the rain month after month. This would be true for any engine rather it's a car, lawnmower or even a piston airplane. I watched the original video and took it for what it was worth...just another car guy saying what they think or believe. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm sure they had good intentions but I generally dont trust what someone says without doing my own research and making my own opinions.

condensation is just as bad on gas as it is oil and because of our wonderful corn gas, it can sometimes be even worse.

If you live in a high humidity region then you should take the necessary precautions, if not...it's your wallet that will eventually open up for something to get fixed cause you didn't.

Basically....I think condensation in oil is only ONE of the things that will kill a car that sits for very long period of and isn't specific to Porsche or the IMS.

elgy

Back to the question of the IMS... some very interesting points are made by JFP in PA in posts #8 and #10 of this thread. He speaks directly to the IMS bearing being bathed in oil.
http://986forum.com/forums/performan...nt-thread.html

ZuffenZeus

Points supported by Jake Raby and Charles Navarro, that ball or cylindrical IMS bearings that have their grease seal removed don't need a direct oil feed.

ZuffenZeus

I appreciate your thoughts, but the shop foreman from HBI was asked by the OP's local PCA chapter to give this talk. I would expect this person to be MORE than just the average "car guy" or enthusiast. This man influences decisions about product procurement for HBI and service hrs for work on Porsches. Also, before HBI removed it's Staff information section on it's website, the shop foreman (I won't mention his real name), actually worked with Porsche of Greensboro, NC before coming to HBI. Obviously, HBI considers him "knowledgeable" about Porsche cars or this company wouldn't have asked him to have an M96 engine ready for the demonstration nor be the "content expert" for this tour. Sadly, he doesn't know the difference between a TUNERS DOF and a LN Engineering IMS Solution. He's sentiment about "cutting into the block" and it causing nasty oil leaks is also a common misunderstanding and considered a no-no by Porsches core program. In order words, Porsche won't accept a core replacement that has been cut or altered. However, cutting a notch for the oil feed on the edge of the engine where the transmission's bell housing meets is no different than Porsche drilling a hole for the crank position sensor. No harm, no foul IMHO. If the RMS or IMS flange begins to weep oil, it will eventually drip out between the transmission and engine. There is no seal or gasket between the two.

mikefocke

It is sad that the discussion is loaded with emotion and few facts are available. If you installed one brand and had problems, you tend not to post about it lest you be deluged by "I told you so" from the other side.

I started following this when I owned Boxsters and the IMS was a not replaceable part according to Porsche. They someone discovered it could be removed and replaced and Jake and Charles started trying to develop a replacement product. In those days I would talk perhaps once a month and was up to date on all their tests and the engines they drove to destruction trying to figure out the right approach. I got the impression they were ligit. I suggested the folks organizing a get-together of Boxster owners in Blowing Rock invite Jake to speak since he wasn't far away. They declined saying he was too commercial. Several years later, after Pedro had been involved in creating the DOF, he spoke on the same subject at the same event.

I have seen a very few failure reports on the 6 Boxster forums I follow on both the early LN bearings and the DOF. I have seen an analysis of how the DOF could cause problems given where the oil for the lubrication was taken from. Based in how few reports and how many more of the LN products have been installed and for many more years, I have formed an opinion. Right or wrong.

On my personal cars I did not install a replacement bearing. One of the cars ('99) was totaled. One ('01S) was sold with about 70k miles on it after frequent oil changes. Last I heard of it 35k miles later it still had its original IMS. Neither bearing was ever inspected.

If I were to do the replacement now, based on the percentages as I perceive them, I would use the LN bearing but not The Solution based on the probable miles I would put on the car over the expected life of the bearing. Why invest so much in one part when there are 25+ other known points of failure. If I were doing a total rebuild of the engine, then I would use The Solution.

Many others have differing opinions.