Wasser das dilemma
07-30-2019, 02:57 PM
#1
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Wasser das dilemma
First time posting in 20 years. I'm a little rusty so forgive any protocol violations...
I'm a seasoned oil cooled dude with a good friend who just sent me his 98 986 that I helped him buy a year ago.
He lives 100 miles from me and called a couple months ago asking about the oil air separator.
I have heard of this problem but never dealt with it so I told him what the parts would cost and invited him to my shop after researching the installation. It seemed fairly straight forward and had no concerns.
The trip here prooved too daunting so he advised me that he paid a shop in his locale to do the work. I'm sure like many of us, he wanted assurance of having done it professionally and I'm a former Porsche restorer/shop owner who now has a small 1500 ft shop at home and mostly work on my own projects.
So understandably, he commissioned the shop in his area and one who was Porsche specialized with an apparent good reputation.
Having had his concerns resolved and with peace of mind, he set out on a road trip. With the wind in his hair and enjoying the southern reaches of I 5 where it winds it's way through the mountainous terrain near Canyonville, he had a puckering sensation when suddenly he noticed his temperature gauge was pegged! He found a quick pull off and contacted the shop where he had the repairs done.
Having gone roughly 150 miles, and having never had this occur previously, he thought they must have done something in error to cause this sudden problem.
Once towed back to the shop, he was advised that it was just freak timing and his water pump had failed.
I've also heard plenty of tales of the 986 water pumps so this seemed reasonable albeit peculiar.
So now after the $600 oil separator now he was quoted a little over ten Benjamin's to replace the water pump.
At this point, I advised him to ship it here and let me do some investigating before committing that kind of money and not knowing why it failed or what downstream issues may have evolved.
He again went with the convenience of the local shop and a new Meyle water pump with aluminum impeller was installed but to his chagrin, there was a significant water leak once completed and coolant was escaping the engine, onto the ground.
Now he was advised they would need to pull the engine to investigate further.
I didn't have to do any convincing at this point, he called and asked if he could just have it towed here. The following are my observations:
Coolant running into ground just behind passenger seat.
From underneath, the leak is on the right side of the engine, flowing from atop the head behind the alternator out of sightline.
Pulled the covers, coolant pooling on top of engine and cascading down the right front of the engine.
Intake manifold is obscuring view. Can't find a visible angle to view point of origin.
Pressure test and running engine produce same leak.
No water in oil/oil in water, no sign of combusting coolant, just leaking out of the engine, top right.
Anybody had this experience? Land Rover is the only vehicle I've seen that leaks coolant OUT of the engine with a blown head gasket or cracked/warped head.
Does Boxster have this tendency or is there another likely culprit lurking under the intake manifold?
I'm a seasoned oil cooled dude with a good friend who just sent me his 98 986 that I helped him buy a year ago.
He lives 100 miles from me and called a couple months ago asking about the oil air separator.
I have heard of this problem but never dealt with it so I told him what the parts would cost and invited him to my shop after researching the installation. It seemed fairly straight forward and had no concerns.
The trip here prooved too daunting so he advised me that he paid a shop in his locale to do the work. I'm sure like many of us, he wanted assurance of having done it professionally and I'm a former Porsche restorer/shop owner who now has a small 1500 ft shop at home and mostly work on my own projects.
So understandably, he commissioned the shop in his area and one who was Porsche specialized with an apparent good reputation.
Having had his concerns resolved and with peace of mind, he set out on a road trip. With the wind in his hair and enjoying the southern reaches of I 5 where it winds it's way through the mountainous terrain near Canyonville, he had a puckering sensation when suddenly he noticed his temperature gauge was pegged! He found a quick pull off and contacted the shop where he had the repairs done.
Having gone roughly 150 miles, and having never had this occur previously, he thought they must have done something in error to cause this sudden problem.
Once towed back to the shop, he was advised that it was just freak timing and his water pump had failed.
I've also heard plenty of tales of the 986 water pumps so this seemed reasonable albeit peculiar.
So now after the $600 oil separator now he was quoted a little over ten Benjamin's to replace the water pump.
At this point, I advised him to ship it here and let me do some investigating before committing that kind of money and not knowing why it failed or what downstream issues may have evolved.
He again went with the convenience of the local shop and a new Meyle water pump with aluminum impeller was installed but to his chagrin, there was a significant water leak once completed and coolant was escaping the engine, onto the ground.
Now he was advised they would need to pull the engine to investigate further.
I didn't have to do any convincing at this point, he called and asked if he could just have it towed here. The following are my observations:
Coolant running into ground just behind passenger seat.
From underneath, the leak is on the right side of the engine, flowing from atop the head behind the alternator out of sightline.
Pulled the covers, coolant pooling on top of engine and cascading down the right front of the engine.
Intake manifold is obscuring view. Can't find a visible angle to view point of origin.
Pressure test and running engine produce same leak.
No water in oil/oil in water, no sign of combusting coolant, just leaking out of the engine, top right.
Anybody had this experience? Land Rover is the only vehicle I've seen that leaks coolant OUT of the engine with a blown head gasket or cracked/warped head.
Does Boxster have this tendency or is there another likely culprit lurking under the intake manifold?
Last edited by gotitbad; 07-30-2019 at 03:15 PM. Reason: Notification: First time posting and just now read the posting guidelines as they didn't appear until after I posted. I'll search the forum as well for related topics
07-30-2019, 04:28 PM
#2
Race Director
First time posting in 20 years. I'm a little rusty so forgive any protocol violations...
I'm a seasoned oil cooled dude with a good friend who just sent me his 98 986 that I helped him buy a year ago.
He lives 100 miles from me and called a couple months ago asking about the oil air separator.
I have heard of this problem but never dealt with it so I told him what the parts would cost and invited him to my shop after researching the installation. It seemed fairly straight forward and had no concerns.
The trip here prooved too daunting so he advised me that he paid a shop in his locale to do the work. I'm sure like many of us, he wanted assurance of having done it professionally and I'm a former Porsche restorer/shop owner who now has a small 1500 ft shop at home and mostly work on my own projects.
So understandably, he commissioned the shop in his area and one who was Porsche specialized with an apparent good reputation.
Having had his concerns resolved and with peace of mind, he set out on a road trip. With the wind in his hair and enjoying the southern reaches of I 5 where it winds it's way through the mountainous terrain near Canyonville, he had a puckering sensation when suddenly he noticed his temperature gauge was pegged! He found a quick pull off and contacted the shop where he had the repairs done.
Having gone roughly 150 miles, and having never had this occur previously, he thought they must have done something in error to cause this sudden problem.
Once towed back to the shop, he was advised that it was just freak timing and his water pump had failed.
I've also heard plenty of tales of the 986 water pumps so this seemed reasonable albeit peculiar.
So now after the $600 oil separator now he was quoted a little over ten Benjamin's to replace the water pump.
At this point, I advised him to ship it here and let me do some investigating before committing that kind of money and not knowing why it failed or what downstream issues may have evolved.
He again went with the convenience of the local shop and a new Meyle water pump with aluminum impeller was installed but to his chagrin, there was a significant water leak once completed and coolant was escaping the engine, onto the ground.
Now he was advised they would need to pull the engine to investigate further.
I didn't have to do any convincing at this point, he called and asked if he could just have it towed here. The following are my observations:
Coolant running into ground just behind passenger seat.
From underneath, the leak is on the right side of the engine, flowing from atop the head behind the alternator out of sightline.
Pulled the covers, coolant pooling on top of engine and cascading down the right front of the engine.
Intake manifold is obscuring view. Can't find a visible angle to view point of origin.
Pressure test and running engine produce same leak.
No water in oil/oil in water, no sign of combusting coolant, just leaking out of the engine, top right.
Anybody had this experience? Land Rover is the only vehicle I've seen that leaks coolant OUT of the engine with a blown head gasket or cracked/warped head.
Does Boxster have this tendency or is there another likely culprit lurking under the intake manifold?
I'm a seasoned oil cooled dude with a good friend who just sent me his 98 986 that I helped him buy a year ago.
He lives 100 miles from me and called a couple months ago asking about the oil air separator.
I have heard of this problem but never dealt with it so I told him what the parts would cost and invited him to my shop after researching the installation. It seemed fairly straight forward and had no concerns.
The trip here prooved too daunting so he advised me that he paid a shop in his locale to do the work. I'm sure like many of us, he wanted assurance of having done it professionally and I'm a former Porsche restorer/shop owner who now has a small 1500 ft shop at home and mostly work on my own projects.
So understandably, he commissioned the shop in his area and one who was Porsche specialized with an apparent good reputation.
Having had his concerns resolved and with peace of mind, he set out on a road trip. With the wind in his hair and enjoying the southern reaches of I 5 where it winds it's way through the mountainous terrain near Canyonville, he had a puckering sensation when suddenly he noticed his temperature gauge was pegged! He found a quick pull off and contacted the shop where he had the repairs done.
Having gone roughly 150 miles, and having never had this occur previously, he thought they must have done something in error to cause this sudden problem.
Once towed back to the shop, he was advised that it was just freak timing and his water pump had failed.
I've also heard plenty of tales of the 986 water pumps so this seemed reasonable albeit peculiar.
So now after the $600 oil separator now he was quoted a little over ten Benjamin's to replace the water pump.
At this point, I advised him to ship it here and let me do some investigating before committing that kind of money and not knowing why it failed or what downstream issues may have evolved.
He again went with the convenience of the local shop and a new Meyle water pump with aluminum impeller was installed but to his chagrin, there was a significant water leak once completed and coolant was escaping the engine, onto the ground.
Now he was advised they would need to pull the engine to investigate further.
I didn't have to do any convincing at this point, he called and asked if he could just have it towed here. The following are my observations:
Coolant running into ground just behind passenger seat.
From underneath, the leak is on the right side of the engine, flowing from atop the head behind the alternator out of sightline.
Pulled the covers, coolant pooling on top of engine and cascading down the right front of the engine.
Intake manifold is obscuring view. Can't find a visible angle to view point of origin.
Pressure test and running engine produce same leak.
No water in oil/oil in water, no sign of combusting coolant, just leaking out of the engine, top right.
Anybody had this experience? Land Rover is the only vehicle I've seen that leaks coolant OUT of the engine with a blown head gasket or cracked/warped head.
Does Boxster have this tendency or is there another likely culprit lurking under the intake manifold?
If left to cool overnight the tank will close up and if one refills the cooling system -- I used a gallon of distilled water -- the tank holds this fluid and one can start the engine and drive the car with no signs of any coolant leak. I drove my 2002 Boxster a couple of miles to the dealer with no problems but of course I took the direct route there and the engine was no where near full operating temperature.
The aftermarket water pump with the aluminum impeller is not a good idea. If the water pump fails, develops excessive bearing play, and this is how the one in my 2002 failed at 172K miles -- if the play gets too bad (which was *not* the case with my car) the impeller can come in contact with the block and the block can be worn away and this wear reduces the effectiveness/efficiency of the next water pump. This ain't good. It also fills the coolant with a bunch of aluminum debris all of which have to be flushed out of the entire cooling system.
'course, with the stock/factory pump and its composite plastic impeller the impeller blades if the water pump develops too much play the impeller blades will contact the block material and the blades will get knocked off which ain't good either. (And like the aluminum debris all the plastic debris has to be flushed out of the entire cooling system.) It is critical if there is any noise from the accessory drive and this is traced to the water pump by with the belt removed and checking for bearing play (there should not be any) or any signs of leakage from the water pump seals the water pump should be replaced without any delay. In the case of my Boxster as soon as I confirmed the water pump had some play I put the belt back on and arranged to flat bed the car to a 25 mile distant (but the closest) dealer for a new factory water pump, and factory T-stat.
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Brian in Tucson (08-02-2019)
07-30-2019, 07:32 PM
#3
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Thread Starter
Thank you for the insight on the reservoir and the pump.
I thought it was odd that the pump impeller was composite rather than aluminum. Now I see why.
His car only has 90k but it's an age factor.
Miles ain't everything for sure.
I'll check the reservoir out. I was unaware that it could leak into the engine compartment but I'll give it a look.
I thought it was odd that the pump impeller was composite rather than aluminum. Now I see why.
His car only has 90k but it's an age factor.
Miles ain't everything for sure.
I'll check the reservoir out. I was unaware that it could leak into the engine compartment but I'll give it a look.
07-31-2019, 11:10 AM
#4
Rennlist Member
As usual, I like Macster's answer. I haven't had to deal with the coolant reservoir, but I have a slow coolant leak (I refill a couple times a year), so it's on the list. Of course, my car is over 180k...
08-03-2019, 11:13 AM
#5
Race Director
Miles are nothing. Maintenance and exercise are everything.
As usual, I like Macster's answer. I haven't had to deal with the coolant reservoir, but I have a slow coolant leak (I refill a couple times a year), so it's on the list. Of course, my car is over 180k...
As usual, I like Macster's answer. I haven't had to deal with the coolant reservoir, but I have a slow coolant leak (I refill a couple times a year), so it's on the list. Of course, my car is over 180k...
Shut off the engine hot -- with the A/C off and the fans running because the engine coolant is above 212F -- and place a tent of foil over the engine fluid service area. After a few minutes check. If any condensation this is coming from the cap. I ended up replacement both the cap on my 2002 Boxster and my 2003 996 Turbo.
The condensation could be coming from the coolant tank. Before they fail catastrophically they'll leak a little once in a while. When the one in my Boxster let go it was clear once out of the car it had been leaking a little off and on for a long time.
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gotitbad (08-03-2019)
08-03-2019, 01:57 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
Bad Head Gasket or cracked head
Well, alas the dreadful sign. Oil has turned up in the coolant. With this development I'm resigned to the fact that we've got a bad Head gskt, warped or cracked head.
I don't think he'll have the stomach to repair the head having already spent $2,000 with the former shop.
Looks like this one will be offered for sale as a project.
Thanks for all your thoughtful recommendations and for taking time to consider.
I don't think he'll have the stomach to repair the head having already spent $2,000 with the former shop.
Looks like this one will be offered for sale as a project.
Thanks for all your thoughtful recommendations and for taking time to consider.
08-03-2019, 02:44 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
Head gaskets are steel shims they cannot fail once properly installed. I bet the head cracked due to water pump debris caught in the coolant passages in the heads.
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gotitbad (08-04-2019)
08-05-2019, 12:12 PM
#11
Race Director
paulofto I think is on target.
Head gasket failure is really rare. I can't recall coming across one true head gasket failure though often the gasket was at least initially suspected.
Heads crack but this seldom puts oil in the coolant. Most often it puts coolant in the engine.
A failed oil cooler can introduce oil -- because it is under some pressure -- into the cooling system.
Head gasket failure is really rare. I can't recall coming across one true head gasket failure though often the gasket was at least initially suspected.
Heads crack but this seldom puts oil in the coolant. Most often it puts coolant in the engine.
A failed oil cooler can introduce oil -- because it is under some pressure -- into the cooling system.
08-08-2019, 11:05 AM
#12
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Thread Starter
I've been away for a couple days. Very good information and much appreciated!
I'll be in hot pursuit of this and update when I know something conclusively.
Thanks for the feedback
I'll be in hot pursuit of this and update when I know something conclusively.
Thanks for the feedback
08-13-2019, 11:42 AM
#13
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Thread Starter
Oil cooler is sealing externally at least. I see no evidence of coolant escaping from anywhere near the cooler. I haven't removed and had the cooler tested, but the water that is leaking from the engine is coming from the other side of the engine and exciting on top of the engine somewhere near the starter.
I may have to remove the intake and starter to isolate the leak. If course there's no way of telling if the intermix is occurring inside the cooler but I'm making the assumption that if the engine is leaking water externally and internally, the likelihood is both are occurring at the same location or at least vicinity.
I may have to remove the intake and starter to isolate the leak. If course there's no way of telling if the intermix is occurring inside the cooler but I'm making the assumption that if the engine is leaking water externally and internally, the likelihood is both are occurring at the same location or at least vicinity.