MechanicalEng

I am 99% sure you are BSP too...

Earlydays

Unfortunately you're in ASP. Here's the SCCA information:
http://moutons.org/sccasolo/Lists/2011/stprepm.html
To win in ASP the car has to be highly modified...GT2's and GT3's have been successful in ASP.
But it's all about fun. I've been running my '90 964, which is stock, for 12 years. It started in AS, then was moved to BS and then to CS last year.
Porsche's overall tend to be aggresively classed, what I mean by that is that the SCCA tends to put them in "faster" classes when they are first classed, then as data is collected they tend to migrate to a more equiable class. It takes a long time because not that many Porsche's autocross in SCCA relative to other makes. The "aggressive" classing started in the 1970's when 911's cleaned up where ever they ran. In my case RX8's are the dominant car in CS.

user 783003

Really? How is that right? How in the world could any 964 ever be competitive with a GT2?

Earlydays

The problem is that you're caught in between with a few mods that throw you into Street Prepared, where as the "real" Street Prepared cars are highly modified, probably not street legal and they are all trailered to the events.
You're also a victim of SCCA's classing vagaries, they don't have enough event data on all the various models so they lump too many models together based on stock data. Also one reason the GT2 is in ASP is that it is not allowed in any Stock class, along with the Gen 2 GT3.

Yomi

The moutons list is great, but it's not official SCCA. It's also obviously wrong (not updated for 2011 perhaps) for a couple of Porsche classings, which makes me not want to trust it at all for this classing. As I wrote in a previous message (also noting I've never classed a 964):

A 1991 964 would seem to me to fall under both ASP's "911 3.6L air-cooled, non-turbo" and BSP's "911 Carrera 2 & 911 Carrera 4".

Perhaps the latter is referring to the 84-89 versions, though they're called out in a separate line in BSP so I can't see why it would. I'm also wondering why the 996 is in AS / BSP but the 993 is in BS and then ASP. (1) perhaps it really goes in BSP because of the "911 Carrera 2 & 911 Carrera 4" line, (2) it could be intentionally in ASP, with all 964 and 993 models being judged faster because of weight or something else, or (2) it could also be an oversight that they're in ASP -- I believe almost all 911's used to go to ASP then they finally relented and let some drop to BSP.

Remember that one goal the classing groups have is not to make some 20-year old really expensive to buy and/or maintain car become the overdog car in a class (except possibly the top ones). So they're hard on Porsches.

It also may be useful looking at the July Fastrack for the proposed 2012 shuffling of SP. The new SSP would have the 01-11 turbos and all GT2s and GT3s. ASP would have all Boxsters, Caymans, pre-2001 turbos, 996s and 997s. BSP would get almost all the rest. CSP would be 356,1600,924S, 944 8v, 4-cyl Carrera. Much simpler. I would hesitate to draw the conclusion that ASP is faster than BSP in the reshuffle, but it does separate cars better (also the Corvette guys pushed the Evos and STis out of their class).

Anyway, I would put you in BSP, but honestly just run in whichever one they want you in and have fun.

Yomi

I'm not a Porsche model guru, but I doubt the **** members are either.
Based on this Wikipedia quote, the OP's 1991 964 really is a "911 Carrera 2" and hence belongs in BSP because that's where the 'Porsche 911 Carrera 2" is listed. I'm still bugged at how it technically fits a 911 catch-all in ASP, but the specific model is called out in BSP (again I wish they'd actually just said 964 if that's what they intended).

Yomi

sjfehr, thanks for letting Greg know and getting that changed.

Also, thanks a bunch to anyone and everyone who wrote to the **** about classing. First, June's redo from BSP->CSP, CSP->DSP, etc. to the new SSP, ASP, BSP, (CSP and lower pretty much left alone) is way better. Second, I just compared the Porsche entries from the June Fastrack and the new July one -- I think it's far easier to figure out the classes for 911s. SSP got rid of the "3.6l air cooled, non-turbo" thing completely, as well as the older turbos moved down to ASP. Looks like some nice cars in both the new ASP and BSP.

Earlydays

Yomi,
I stand corrected, you're right. I went back to the SCCA 2011 handbook and indeed many of the ASP Porsches such as the Carrera 2/4, 914-6, 968, etc. are now in BSP, after being in ASP in previous years.
Mouton's DB is definitely out of date, he's a friend of mine and I'll ask him to update it.
Because so few Porsches run in SCCA, it takes them a long time to move older models down in the classes.
I would assume the "911 (3.6L, air-cooled, non-turbo)" in ASP refers to the 3.6L 993/996/997 (probably would also include the 3.8L 997.2S) and the 3.4L 996 would be in BSP, under "911 (non-turbo NOC)", NOC being "Not Otherwise Classed".

Earlydays

PS - I just received the July Fastrack and the new proposed SSP/ASP/BSP are much clearer....all 996/997's (non-turbo) are in ASP and the 993 (non-turbo) is in BSP.

Yomi

I love Mouton's list -- I referred to it a lot back in 2004 and 2005 when trying to help people class their cars. Especially for stock it's just a really easy to read setup (and also sortable in a few different ways). I know it's a heck of a job keeping up to date, including the monthly Fastrack changes and manufacturers doing sometimes oddball special editions, etc.

I think the "911 (3.6L, air-cooled, non-turbo)" in ASP is intended to be the 993s. It might also include things like the 964 RS America and Speedster. Currently all the non-turbo/GT3 996's and 997's go in BSP via the "911 (non-turbo, NOC)" line since they're not air-cooled and don't match any of the other ASP or CSP lines. I'm much happier with the 996's and 997's getting a real listing with the July Fastrack instead of falling in a NOC.

(I'm avoiding all of this for the moment by just running mine with no changes, but sometimes I do pine over coilovers etc.)

Earlydays

Of course, I wasn't paying attention to the "air-cooled", it couldn't include the 996/997 as I mentioned earlier......the new proposed "SP" classes are definitely much clearer.

As an aside, I joke with my autoX buddies that if I stay in "Stock" classes with my 964 long enough, one day I'll be HS

Yomi

Or run in a regional "Vintage" class. You do have the stock 8-track stereo, right?

Auto_Werks 3.6

The 964 is technically still classed in ASP this year by the 3.6L aircooled listing. In order to use a NOC listing you must start from the highest street prepared class and work your way down. In this case the car is in fact otherwise classed, whether that was the intent of the classification or not, I couldn't comment. If the Fastrack proposal goes through for 2012, the 964 will clearly be in BSP.

The national staff is able to answer questions regarding car classification. Contact information is available on the website, www.scca.com. I'm the "Porsche guy", but Brian H is more familar with the fine details of the class structures.

ValveFloat

I asked this question early in the year because I too was confused.
I hope its ok to post Mr. Harmer's response here.

Auto_Werks 3.6

no problem... Brian was at my desk when I posted that. I have made some contributions to the classification language, which is (to some extent) why the classifications in the new proposal are much more clearly defined. To a non porsche enthusiast it is confusing that the 964 could technically be referred to as a 3.6L aircooled car or a C2/C4. In all reality I'm not sure what would happen if someone protested you for running on the C2 spec line. I'm looking forward to having some of the loose ends tied up. If you are all running regional events, just keep doing what you have always done for this season. If anyone is running a divisional/tour/pro/nationals event and feel that you require further clarification, we could try to get something more official from the SEB.