diffs between DE and auto-x
12-21-2010, 06:13 PM
#16
My core differences are that when I AX, I am usually quite abrupt in inputs.. Steering, Braking, Acceleration whereas at the track I am much "slower" and smoother in these inputs.
I think one also has to consider the TYPE of AX course you are running. When I used to run with NNJR at their Meadowlands lots, the courses were much tighter than when I would run with NER at Devens (an airstrip). At Devens, I could see nearly 70mph down long stretches (grabbing 3rd gear).. at the Meadowlands, I never saw the speedometer, but I would guess that 45-50mph (top of 2nd gear) was the peak speed (and for a much shorter time). At Fed Ex field, there can be some serious ELEVATION changes which can impact approach. Most AX lots I had driven on were larger and FLAT but adding hills really made thing more fun, if not also challenging (having to control more wieght transfers). These speed differences tended to impact my style/approach.
I tend to "DE" my ax lines.. try for large, smooth arcs, late apexes etc. But when I really need a nice, quick clean run, and think I've maximized my current lines, I think back to Drews comments and "tighten" my line up, usually gaining a time advantage. My competitors call it "sand bagging".. I just call it wining
I think one also has to consider the TYPE of AX course you are running. When I used to run with NNJR at their Meadowlands lots, the courses were much tighter than when I would run with NER at Devens (an airstrip). At Devens, I could see nearly 70mph down long stretches (grabbing 3rd gear).. at the Meadowlands, I never saw the speedometer, but I would guess that 45-50mph (top of 2nd gear) was the peak speed (and for a much shorter time). At Fed Ex field, there can be some serious ELEVATION changes which can impact approach. Most AX lots I had driven on were larger and FLAT but adding hills really made thing more fun, if not also challenging (having to control more wieght transfers). These speed differences tended to impact my style/approach.
I tend to "DE" my ax lines.. try for large, smooth arcs, late apexes etc. But when I really need a nice, quick clean run, and think I've maximized my current lines, I think back to Drews comments and "tighten" my line up, usually gaining a time advantage. My competitors call it "sand bagging".. I just call it wining
01-22-2011, 09:48 PM
#17
Race Director
My core differences are that when I AX, I am usually quite abrupt in inputs.. Steering, Braking, Acceleration whereas at the track I am much "slower" and smoother in these inputs.
I think one also has to consider the TYPE of AX course you are running. When I used to run with NNJR at their Meadowlands lots, the courses were much tighter than when I would run with NER at Devens (an airstrip). At Devens, I could see nearly 70mph down long stretches (grabbing 3rd gear).. at the Meadowlands, I never saw the speedometer, but I would guess that 45-50mph (top of 2nd gear) was the peak speed (and for a much shorter time). At Fed Ex field, there can be some serious ELEVATION changes which can impact approach. Most AX lots I had driven on were larger and FLAT but adding hills really made thing more fun, if not also challenging (having to control more wieght transfers). These speed differences tended to impact my style/approach.
I tend to "DE" my ax lines.. try for large, smooth arcs, late apexes etc. But when I really need a nice, quick clean run, and think I've maximized my current lines, I think back to Drews comments and "tighten" my line up, usually gaining a time advantage. My competitors call it "sand bagging".. I just call it wining
I think one also has to consider the TYPE of AX course you are running. When I used to run with NNJR at their Meadowlands lots, the courses were much tighter than when I would run with NER at Devens (an airstrip). At Devens, I could see nearly 70mph down long stretches (grabbing 3rd gear).. at the Meadowlands, I never saw the speedometer, but I would guess that 45-50mph (top of 2nd gear) was the peak speed (and for a much shorter time). At Fed Ex field, there can be some serious ELEVATION changes which can impact approach. Most AX lots I had driven on were larger and FLAT but adding hills really made thing more fun, if not also challenging (having to control more wieght transfers). These speed differences tended to impact my style/approach.
I tend to "DE" my ax lines.. try for large, smooth arcs, late apexes etc. But when I really need a nice, quick clean run, and think I've maximized my current lines, I think back to Drews comments and "tighten" my line up, usually gaining a time advantage. My competitors call it "sand bagging".. I just call it wining
Each of your tires only has the area of your forehead (roughly) for contact on the pavement. Lots of abrupt movemets reduces the contact area of the tires and your times go up. Sometimes slower is faster if it leaves you in a position to go through the next section faster.
I stand by my earlier post that says there is one best line around a course. If you are doing a DE that could change if you are passing. The racing line changes with traffic, the ideal line through a course or around a track never changes assuming there are no changes to conditions.
01-22-2011, 09:56 PM
#18
Race Director
Do you put the course into sections mentally to learn one section on your first run then try to put all the sections together by the end of the day? If you run a course like the Streets of Willow, that course is fairly static and does change. Parking lot courses are the biggest challenge. Nothing like a "Sea of Pylons".
01-30-2011, 08:27 PM
#19
Intermediate
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wichita
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I like that quote.
Two things I would like to disagree with and/or clarify.
The straights are short, but they are extremely important and you need to identify them and set up for them as well as possible. An AX straight is any acceleration zone. You will be doing a lot of turning during the straights. Go slow to get set up for the "straight" so you can go fast in the straight. If there isn't a cone to stop you, you aren't at the edge of the track yet.
While you will be much more aggressive than on a track, you should still be smooth and not abrupt. Andy's Top Ten Tips number 2, 3 and 4 are all about being smooth. You can trail brake and still be smooth.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=44932
Two things I would like to disagree with and/or clarify.
The straights are short, but they are extremely important and you need to identify them and set up for them as well as possible. An AX straight is any acceleration zone. You will be doing a lot of turning during the straights. Go slow to get set up for the "straight" so you can go fast in the straight. If there isn't a cone to stop you, you aren't at the edge of the track yet.
While you will be much more aggressive than on a track, you should still be smooth and not abrupt. Andy's Top Ten Tips number 2, 3 and 4 are all about being smooth. You can trail brake and still be smooth.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=44932
02-01-2011, 11:27 PM
#20
Three Wheelin'
I started driving on a track (LRP) in a Porsche in 1987, with no AX or karting experience. My prep was multiple viewing of Going Faster! and multiple readings of Bob Bondurant's book.
I did a lot of AX back in the day, and instructed AX too. We used to have a two-day AX school at Candlestick, and for years it was run by Hank Watts (Secrets of Solo Racing). I also have many years invested in instructing.
To me, it is all the same.
The line is ideal construct based on our desire to get around the circuit as fast as possible. The starting point for DE and AX is always striving for the widest arc through a corner. That allows the car to go the fastest... if it is a perfect object of physics. In the AX school, we underscored this with the first exercise which was as simple traction circle. The students quickly grasped that no matter what, the car could go faster without breaking loose with a wider diameter circle. Through a corner that translates to the widest arc.
The next thing on the line I teach, a la Going Faster! is that the most important corner on any circuit is the corner before the longest straight. Again, basic theory. AX or track, it matters not.
Now in AX and on the track we have to adjust. The car is not a perfect object of physics, so we have trade-off decisions to make. An example is a turbo car with a lot of lag. Here we often take later-than-natural geometric apexes because the power doesn't come on in a quasi-liner fashion with boost. Of course there are many other examples of trade-offs we make to the lines we drive (e.g., double apex bends) and to the inputs we give the car.
How we go faster, presuming we don't change the car, is by identifying the optimal trade-offs and giving the car inputs based on that. In AX, we make often make decisions really fast and provide inputs really fast. This happens less often on the track. Also in AX, our problem solving/trade-off identifying skills are tested with each new layout. Typically we can go to tracks multiple times with the same problems to solve in terms of track layout.
Many skills we develop in AX translate to track situations, like rotating a car hard with throttle. But the car's dynamics may be a little different. In my experience, this is most observable with heavier, less modified cars. What one experiences with, for example a stock 951 with second gear boost oversteer in AX, may feel quite a bit different in the same car with 3rd gear boost oversteer in the Andretti hairpin at Laguna Seca. Ask me how I know.
In the first case, we may quickly develop skills to deal with it, but these skills may not be instantly applicable in the second case because the feedback from the car to the driver is so very different.
I like my students to have a firm grasp of the basic theories. When they do, they see no differences between track and AX driving. We are trying to go as fast as possible by identifying the trade-offs and giving the car inputs based on that. I find it less than ideal when I get a student in AX or on the track that has had an instructor that did not teach these basic concepts. Or got them wrong. For example, the concept that it is okay to routinely miss AX or track apexes by a few inches or a foot. I tell my students it that they must strive for angstroms. Another example... turns 3, 4, 5 and 6 at a track like Laguna Seca are all basic 90 degree corners. Or one I saw on another forum where an experienced racer/instructor posted that to go faster you choose apexes that are later and later than the geometric apex. Yikes.
When I race I don't mind if the other guy or gal doesn't have a solid foundation in the basics, as long as they are not crashing into me or others and causing yellow flags. This situation provides opportunities.
I did a lot of AX back in the day, and instructed AX too. We used to have a two-day AX school at Candlestick, and for years it was run by Hank Watts (Secrets of Solo Racing). I also have many years invested in instructing.
To me, it is all the same.
The line is ideal construct based on our desire to get around the circuit as fast as possible. The starting point for DE and AX is always striving for the widest arc through a corner. That allows the car to go the fastest... if it is a perfect object of physics. In the AX school, we underscored this with the first exercise which was as simple traction circle. The students quickly grasped that no matter what, the car could go faster without breaking loose with a wider diameter circle. Through a corner that translates to the widest arc.
The next thing on the line I teach, a la Going Faster! is that the most important corner on any circuit is the corner before the longest straight. Again, basic theory. AX or track, it matters not.
Now in AX and on the track we have to adjust. The car is not a perfect object of physics, so we have trade-off decisions to make. An example is a turbo car with a lot of lag. Here we often take later-than-natural geometric apexes because the power doesn't come on in a quasi-liner fashion with boost. Of course there are many other examples of trade-offs we make to the lines we drive (e.g., double apex bends) and to the inputs we give the car.
How we go faster, presuming we don't change the car, is by identifying the optimal trade-offs and giving the car inputs based on that. In AX, we make often make decisions really fast and provide inputs really fast. This happens less often on the track. Also in AX, our problem solving/trade-off identifying skills are tested with each new layout. Typically we can go to tracks multiple times with the same problems to solve in terms of track layout.
Many skills we develop in AX translate to track situations, like rotating a car hard with throttle. But the car's dynamics may be a little different. In my experience, this is most observable with heavier, less modified cars. What one experiences with, for example a stock 951 with second gear boost oversteer in AX, may feel quite a bit different in the same car with 3rd gear boost oversteer in the Andretti hairpin at Laguna Seca. Ask me how I know.
In the first case, we may quickly develop skills to deal with it, but these skills may not be instantly applicable in the second case because the feedback from the car to the driver is so very different.
I like my students to have a firm grasp of the basic theories. When they do, they see no differences between track and AX driving. We are trying to go as fast as possible by identifying the trade-offs and giving the car inputs based on that. I find it less than ideal when I get a student in AX or on the track that has had an instructor that did not teach these basic concepts. Or got them wrong. For example, the concept that it is okay to routinely miss AX or track apexes by a few inches or a foot. I tell my students it that they must strive for angstroms. Another example... turns 3, 4, 5 and 6 at a track like Laguna Seca are all basic 90 degree corners. Or one I saw on another forum where an experienced racer/instructor posted that to go faster you choose apexes that are later and later than the geometric apex. Yikes.
When I race I don't mind if the other guy or gal doesn't have a solid foundation in the basics, as long as they are not crashing into me or others and causing yellow flags. This situation provides opportunities.
