Few Q's on 3.2 Carrera for autox build
07-29-2009, 01:09 PM
#16
Jason,
I would LOVE to see you work your magic on a 911 Carrera, but I do think it will be an uphill battle. I've driven Ken's S2000 which is barely prepared and think that beating a well prepared albeit not ASP prepared S2000 with a Carrera will be tough. Most of my experience is with my '69 but I may be able to add a little here:
1) Torque seems reasonable. Not sure about gear ratios
2) 245 in the front might be a tight squeeze but probably doable with optimized offsets and gentle fender massaging. You probably wouldn't need this much.
3) Not sure about CS details
4) Assuming stock bodywork and bumpers, 2400lbs. might be optimistic but doable. I know how "thorough" you guys are so you will likely find opportunities to optimize components and save some weight. I would expect that you would need to run at least 1/4 tank of fuel.
5) The G50 is quite stout as are the axles. I would not expect it to last forever with multiple ProSolo seasons but it certainly could.
I will say that it's hard to beat the fun factor of autocrossing a 911 as the rear engine dynamics really keep the car alive. But, I know you are in it to win and this may be a difficult and expensive task.
Good Luck!
David Palmquist
I would LOVE to see you work your magic on a 911 Carrera, but I do think it will be an uphill battle. I've driven Ken's S2000 which is barely prepared and think that beating a well prepared albeit not ASP prepared S2000 with a Carrera will be tough. Most of my experience is with my '69 but I may be able to add a little here:
1) Torque seems reasonable. Not sure about gear ratios
2) 245 in the front might be a tight squeeze but probably doable with optimized offsets and gentle fender massaging. You probably wouldn't need this much.
3) Not sure about CS details
4) Assuming stock bodywork and bumpers, 2400lbs. might be optimistic but doable. I know how "thorough" you guys are so you will likely find opportunities to optimize components and save some weight. I would expect that you would need to run at least 1/4 tank of fuel.
5) The G50 is quite stout as are the axles. I would not expect it to last forever with multiple ProSolo seasons but it certainly could.
I will say that it's hard to beat the fun factor of autocrossing a 911 as the rear engine dynamics really keep the car alive. But, I know you are in it to win and this may be a difficult and expensive task.
Good Luck!
David Palmquist
07-30-2009, 08:02 AM
#17
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Well, the proposed class has changed a little. If you look at the latest list there is a 2.7liter displacement limit and it only lists 986 instead of Boxster. A 3.2 Carrera of any year seems to be out.
07-30-2009, 02:43 PM
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Yes, I know it's a Boxster but by saying 986 rather than Boxster they are removing the 987. The 987 is more powerful and has wider wheels than the 986. It's chassis is stiffer and has better electronic suspension and stability aids. By eliminating the 987 and limiting Boxsters to only the base 986, they have taken away any reason to think that one could be competitive in the new class.
07-30-2009, 10:57 PM
#21
Where is the "latest" list of cars?
My 2.7 boxster was a hoot and did well at PCA events.. didn't do any SCCA at the time to know how badly the S2000 would beat it though. A 2.7 boxster with freed up exhaust, gets 230ish hp (maybe more depending what year 2.7 you start with.. mine was rated 217, later ones 228).. Starting weight is around 2850.. but I bet you could pull 200lbs out of it, no? Plus modern (compared to 3.2 911) suspension. 245-18s all around.
07-31-2009, 01:15 PM
#22
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I think you're looking at the wrong list. The list with the 3.2 carrera is the latest.
07-31-2009, 02:49 PM
#23
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- Porsche 924 & 944 (non-turbo)
- Porsche 911 (1984 to 1989 Carrera 3.2)
- Porsche 968
Keep in mind that this just a proposal for member comment and is not a real class yet.
08-01-2009, 09:23 AM
#25
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I've been running a similar car in ES for awhile...I took a 944 and installed all of the m030 stuff and the factory LSD so that it would be legal for the class. It was great but the performance of the car isn't what you should worry about.
What will keep the car from being competitive is the price of parts. Right now I am dead in the water with the 944 because the m030 strut mounts gave it up (after about a year). The only E stock legal part is a direct replacement and guess what? They are $1200 PER SIDE because it's an m030 part. So now I'm just fishing around for used ones.
My car might be okay in STR...it does max out the 2.7L displacement limit, and STR would probably allow me to buy some cheaper aftermarket replacement parts. But I for one really hate street tires and I know there is no way that a 944 can keep up with an S2000.
At least they're letting Porsches in Street Touring classes...for a long time they weren't allowed at all.
What will keep the car from being competitive is the price of parts. Right now I am dead in the water with the 944 because the m030 strut mounts gave it up (after about a year). The only E stock legal part is a direct replacement and guess what? They are $1200 PER SIDE because it's an m030 part. So now I'm just fishing around for used ones.
My car might be okay in STR...it does max out the 2.7L displacement limit, and STR would probably allow me to buy some cheaper aftermarket replacement parts. But I for one really hate street tires and I know there is no way that a 944 can keep up with an S2000.
At least they're letting Porsches in Street Touring classes...for a long time they weren't allowed at all.
08-18-2009, 09:41 PM
#26
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Heard there was a Club Sport for sale somewhere on this site, checked back in on this thread.
I have a feeling the list of cars eligible for STR will remain fairly stable as of the August Fastrack. I can maybe see 1-2 cars getting added but nothing that should upset the applecart too much. This class was built to cater to the S2000, Miata, and Spyder. SCCA classes where Porsches are dominant tend to be undersubscribed. I think the PCA events offer a much better value proposition for most Porsche owners so I can't say I blame anyone for not running with SCCA.
David, that S2000 was actually once mine, I'd bought it new and sold it to Ken after he'd been drooling on it for years. I have a feeling an AP2 S2000 would be even better than the AP1 on most courses, and as you mentioned, Ken's car is barely set up. I agree the 911 would be a tough job, and they wouldn't have let it in if they really thought it had much of a chance. Unfortunately the nicer-looking parts I've seen made for the cars aren't done with our sort of rules in mind, so most of the suspension and exhaust pieces would have to be custom to be legal. Add in the cost of keeping the car in tip-top shape (would probably do a .020 over rebuild and head freshening) and it gets expensive fast.
The other problem is I really like the Viper. Hopefully they let it stay competitive until right around the time STR goes full National, that'd work out nicely. I'd enjoy a situation where I can drive to far-away events on my "race" tires, show my competitors some taillight at a Pro launch, and not wake up the entire neighborhood when I get home.
I have a feeling the list of cars eligible for STR will remain fairly stable as of the August Fastrack. I can maybe see 1-2 cars getting added but nothing that should upset the applecart too much. This class was built to cater to the S2000, Miata, and Spyder. SCCA classes where Porsches are dominant tend to be undersubscribed. I think the PCA events offer a much better value proposition for most Porsche owners so I can't say I blame anyone for not running with SCCA.
David, that S2000 was actually once mine, I'd bought it new and sold it to Ken after he'd been drooling on it for years. I have a feeling an AP2 S2000 would be even better than the AP1 on most courses, and as you mentioned, Ken's car is barely set up. I agree the 911 would be a tough job, and they wouldn't have let it in if they really thought it had much of a chance. Unfortunately the nicer-looking parts I've seen made for the cars aren't done with our sort of rules in mind, so most of the suspension and exhaust pieces would have to be custom to be legal. Add in the cost of keeping the car in tip-top shape (would probably do a .020 over rebuild and head freshening) and it gets expensive fast.
The other problem is I really like the Viper. Hopefully they let it stay competitive until right around the time STR goes full National, that'd work out nicely. I'd enjoy a situation where I can drive to far-away events on my "race" tires, show my competitors some taillight at a Pro launch, and not wake up the entire neighborhood when I get home.
09-23-2009, 06:17 PM
#27
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the potential of a (competitive?) Porsche 911 in an SCCA sanctioned street tire class has really piqued my interest... I've scratched the surface a little doing some of my own research (finding this thread for one), thanks for posting up your questions/ideas, this is all very interesting! I wish I had more to share other than what's already been posted, I do feel like I'm drowning in questions though 
it's interesting considering the options allowed by conversion -vs- the comfort and convenience allowance... couldn't you argue, for example, that the sunroof was "added to your CS" as a convenience? Same for the door/window mechanisms, a/c, etc. If that argument held water couldn't you start with the easy stuff (sound deadening, a/c, rear seats) and slowly build your way up.. ? I haven't spent any time playing in the stock classes, so maybe this is all old'hat stuff...
it's interesting considering the options allowed by conversion -vs- the comfort and convenience allowance... couldn't you argue, for example, that the sunroof was "added to your CS" as a convenience? Same for the door/window mechanisms, a/c, etc. If that argument held water couldn't you start with the easy stuff (sound deadening, a/c, rear seats) and slowly build your way up.. ? I haven't spent any time playing in the stock classes, so maybe this is all old'hat stuff...
09-24-2009, 08:42 PM
#28
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Hi DMikko,
I think you're on the right track with the comfort & convenience clause. The question is the Club Sport motor bits, and what potential differences there are besides external stampings. If they're internally the same as non-CS motors, then IMO (which doesn't necessarily carry any weight) you could rip the AC and rear seats out of a regular Carrera and call it a "Club Sport with sunroof, power windows, and sound deadening added for my comfort and convenience" - so long as the power windows are heavier than the wind-ups, which they usually are.
I think the 911 can be made competitive in STR if in CS trim. A non-sunroof'd Carrera would be a great start. It's going to be very expensive though, and the only place it'll have much of an advantage over its competition is at a ProSolo drag-start, which is hard on the drivetrain.
I think you're on the right track with the comfort & convenience clause. The question is the Club Sport motor bits, and what potential differences there are besides external stampings. If they're internally the same as non-CS motors, then IMO (which doesn't necessarily carry any weight) you could rip the AC and rear seats out of a regular Carrera and call it a "Club Sport with sunroof, power windows, and sound deadening added for my comfort and convenience" - so long as the power windows are heavier than the wind-ups, which they usually are.
I think the 911 can be made competitive in STR if in CS trim. A non-sunroof'd Carrera would be a great start. It's going to be very expensive though, and the only place it'll have much of an advantage over its competition is at a ProSolo drag-start, which is hard on the drivetrain.
09-24-2009, 09:21 PM
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something about hollow intake valves right.....
since I started "looking" (I use the term loosely) I haven't found any non-sunroofed Carreras...
It seems like you have looked into what it would take to bring the Carrera up to ST spec (non-metallic/non-spherical bits, for example) and that's causing concern...? possibly having to build a custom catted exhaust sucks, but no surprise really. what are some of the other big whammies?
I bet you could go easy on your pro-solo starts and still be a quarter second up after 60ft on the s2000s and what'not, maybe?
it does seem a little odd to me that they'd take two already very popular autocross cars (s2000, MX5) and create another class for them (STR). In my opinion neither car has the "tuner appeal" as many of the other ST cars out there that are excluded, or essentially excluded via the Civics dominance. Whatever, it was nice to see a Porsche in the includes for STR though, here's hoping someone can prove it competitive (or the 350z, or some other car that doesn't already fill the grid in some other class).
One of our countries top Porsche guys is local to us and our community, I will be sure and bend his ear and see what he thinks!
since I started "looking" (I use the term loosely) I haven't found any non-sunroofed Carreras...
It seems like you have looked into what it would take to bring the Carrera up to ST spec (non-metallic/non-spherical bits, for example) and that's causing concern...? possibly having to build a custom catted exhaust sucks, but no surprise really. what are some of the other big whammies?
I bet you could go easy on your pro-solo starts and still be a quarter second up after 60ft on the s2000s and what'not, maybe?
it does seem a little odd to me that they'd take two already very popular autocross cars (s2000, MX5) and create another class for them (STR). In my opinion neither car has the "tuner appeal" as many of the other ST cars out there that are excluded, or essentially excluded via the Civics dominance. Whatever, it was nice to see a Porsche in the includes for STR though, here's hoping someone can prove it competitive (or the 350z, or some other car that doesn't already fill the grid in some other class).
One of our countries top Porsche guys is local to us and our community, I will be sure and bend his ear and see what he thinks!
09-24-2009, 11:53 PM
#30
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I don't know much about Miatas, but I know there are a TON of guys with mildly modded S2000s out there. The car is still quite competitive in Stock class but not so much so in SP, and SSM is further than most would probably like to go. I predict STR is going to make huge numbers on the national scene and 50% or more of those will be S2000s.
Having to make custom suspension bushings and headers sounds like a lot of work already. Engine will probably need a rebuild, which sounds like big $ even if you do all the non-precision labor yourself. There's a lot of really neat stuff out there (custom-height spindles, custom rear trailing arms) that would help the car a lot, that you're going to have to say no to.
I do believe the 911 will be competitive given adequate effort and resources, I just think the effort and resources it requires would also build you any two of the other STR-legal cars...
Having to make custom suspension bushings and headers sounds like a lot of work already. Engine will probably need a rebuild, which sounds like big $ even if you do all the non-precision labor yourself. There's a lot of really neat stuff out there (custom-height spindles, custom rear trailing arms) that would help the car a lot, that you're going to have to say no to.
I do believe the 911 will be competitive given adequate effort and resources, I just think the effort and resources it requires would also build you any two of the other STR-legal cars...