MTosi

(you can watch high res versions if you click on the link and there is an option on the bottom right of the video)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIYJn2o8yXw

The "exclamations" are from the passenger not me

vs. how it looks dry...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o81Svelo6bU

On a seperate note I thought the course was pretty poor and waaaaay to convoluted, not much room for car control, just slalom, overly tight corner, point and shoot, repeat

Mussl Kar

Waaa! Waaaa! Waaaa! Too much whinning about course design, same course for all drivers. I had no issues with it. Course design also needs to appeal to novices too. Make it too technical and they won't return. Problem for some of us was how much it dried and when it dried. Driving my backup didn't help me a lot either. BTW, I took the last optional slalom on the other side and found that I could keep the power on a lot longer. Could be the difference in our cars?
Notice the cones missing in the second vid? I did and almost stopped to point them out. Doubt that I would get a RR though.

MTosi

That course could not have appealed any less to novices, there were way to many extra unnecessary cones and sooooooooooo many slaloms. Slaloms are what happens when course designers get lazy and run out of ideas, yet still have space to fill. A good course should flow, not be choppy. Half the point of AutoX is to teach car control, and when you have to park the car, get out and walk your not learning car control, only how to drive through a parking lot. Watch the difference between how much car control/correction is happening on the fast sweepers vs. the wicked tight gates by the tower and the slaloms.It's also good to have a course that allows some car to use third gear, it's easier on the cars and it teaches shifting techniques. Plus the slower a course is, and the more cones there are to hit, and the longer the day goes. It's a real PITA to work a course like that (the second run group, we were out there for two hours). The course Noel and I set up for the second to last NER event (only one token slalom, and had alot of third gear spots) was quick enough, that we were done at 1:50-2 and everyone had 8 runs. We have a wonderful facility with devens, and why they waste it with stupid tight mazes of a course that could be run in a parking lot is besides me.

In terms of the wet dry thing, that cost me big time. I ran in the first sub group while it was still pouring, and the guy who won the class ran in the second sub group when the course had started to dry significantly. I was two seconds quicker in the dry but it wasn't enough to make up for the morning when he had a semi dry track. I think I had a 90.4 in the pouring rain, and a 82.4 in the dry. I'm not sure which way was quicker on that last slalom. I think I did it differently throughout the day and it didn't make more than a few tenths difference either way. The amount of cones out of place was crazy, it happened in like 4 of my runs. Only once did I bother to stop for a RR, since I had blown that run .

PedalFaster

Course looked both fast and fun to me from your videos. It also looks like you're late in most of the transitions and overdriving your front end grip, though.

WalkerInTN

Looks like fun! Not exactly what I'd call pouring rain though.

Paul 996

Pouring rain? The wipers aren't even on. Come on now.

Mussl Kar

It was dry enough to put my A6s on. In hindsite I should have brought both sets. One set had 6 events on them but I brought only the new set to scuff them in for Zone 1. I didn't think it would be a good idea to scuff in a new set in the rain so I left them in the truck. I could have ran them in the afternoon but the sky did not look to be worth it.

MTosi

That particular run it was not, but my last two runs the skies opened up for just a few minutes, and I had to put the wipers on full. I'm still waiting to get those runs, and I'll be sure to post them when I do.

Not sure which video your watching? Other than hitting a puddle and aquaplaning once thats the last thing I would come away with from watching those video's. I think you may be confusing the tight course for me being "late on the transitions" and the last thing I've ever heard anyone say is I over drive my front end grip. Rear most certainly, but front?

This is my idea of a relatively open course, note the distinct lack of park it, use all the lock, karate chop style corners, there is actually some rhythm and flow, and you can use third gear in sports (forgive the drifting antics, I had already won my class for the day so it was basically a fun run )....

butzip

It's not my place to critique anybodys driving style. This is a friendly forum I'm just glad that people get out there and toss it around. That being said, that all looked pretty heroic. Personally, I believe you single handedly made that auto-x a spectator sport!!

Are going to make it to the Zone 1 in Agawam?

MTosi

Thanks, it's funny you should mention that. I actually had three separate people come up and mention they had fun watching, so in my mind mission accomplished

Believe it or not that, despite all my driving antics, that run in the rain was actually the quickest time in my sub group (the only group it was actually still raining, as opposed to drying).

I was just co driving the car, and the owner wasn't realy planning on going to Zone 1, so as of now no go on that. However I'm not ride less next weekend, someone I gave a ride to had enough fun he offered to let me drive his race prepped MZ3 at the BMW club event so I'll most likely be at Devens Sunday .

PedalFaster

The dry video certainly looks like you're late and overdriving. Between 0:50 and 0:54, it looks like you drive right up to the apex cone, put in 180 degrees of lock to try to get yourself back on line, then do the same thing in reverse on the next cone. Maybe it's just the video, but that's how it looks from where I sit.

Mussl Kar

The course design on that day was not the one that JMac planned on, he had other ideas but had to scrap them because of the rain, and it was really pouring when we set the course up. He set it up on the fly to be safe and on my test drives (F350 Superduty) we saw a few areas that needed correction for safety.
Having third gear areas in the wet would surely lead to some very bad things for the newer drivers with more powerful cars. Dangerous for drivers and course workers alike. If you want to do shifting then you should design tight pivots where most cars would need to drop to 1st. Cars like my RS can easily go stupid fast in third gear and that is not the point of autocross. Autocross IS a parking lot sport and we are lucky to have such a huge safe place like Devins to do it in. Setting it up for road course type speeds could even get us kicked out because there are actually speed limits imposed by the State Police who have a say as to what happens there.
My experience when drivers say a course is too tight is that they are having problems because they are late in the tight areas. I ran an extremely tight Miata course earlier this summer and everybody including me hated it, 1-2 drivers left at noon. It was in the afternoon that I "got it" and my times dropped like crazy. The course had flow, but not until I unlocked its secrets. If you were late you were screwed, all there was to it.
The last NER course we ran had a few very high speed areas, and one area at the end of the first leg where I could have gone to third. My 2nd tops out around 71 so I guess 3rd would have given me 10-15 mph more, along with a longer braking distance. I chose to hold to about 8K instead of going that fast. Fastest Porsche of the day, and less than a second behind that prepped Z3.
OT' but my last runs have always been my fastest runs and that day I was lucky to have placed 1st because wifeys nephew was down from Canada and I spent the PM runs giving him and his friend rides. Mark S almost got me in the PM too because I was not concentrating on driving as much as I should have.

MTosi

Your actually spot on, that section of the course there was just no way to get in late. It was one of the classic sections where you can't gain any time, you can only lose it.

Some people may call it overdriving, but I call it on the limit, and if you actually on it the car should always be sliding, whatever it is it seems to work....

....generally they are saying the course is to tight because it is, I don't seem to have much trouble going fast whether it's tight or open. The reason I don't like slow courses is they are often boring, hard on the car, just plain don't teach as much car control, and reward the most setup, stiffly sprung car. People often mistake a technical course, for a course that requires skill. Just because there aren't many cones doesn't mean the course is easy, it actually opens it up and allows for some creativity. I've helped John set up the BMW club courses for the last few years (when I run with BMW), and he likes the tight technical courses, with lots of slaloms since they tend to suit his driving style. In terms of shifting I don't need any practice, I've been double clutching and h/t before I even had my liscense, but alot of autoXers do. Whether people like it or not it's a fundamental driving skill. Second to first shifts are brutal on a car so you realy don't want any of those. Not all cars have to be going 70 to use third, when I was running the 944 I was able to do some of the more open courses entirely in third. Even in Dicks 911, at every NER course this year I've been shifting at least twice on each course. No one is suggesting road course speeds, just a course that isn't a whole boat load of slaloms and back and forth (in one gate) across the runway.