Hey Wombat,

Just wanted to emphasize that only the pre-99 Miatas are being moved to ES, not all Miatas. You may have already known that, but I couldn't tell by your post. Also, the Miatas that have been at the top of CS are the 99+ cars.

I personally support the pre-99 Miata move to ES because, among other reasons, MR2's are becoming more difficult to find. Also, keep in mind that the PAX difference between CS and ES is only 0.4 seconds on a 50 second course, so it's not as if even the 'top dog' 99 Miatas are blowing away the ES MR2's.

 

Couple of general points on this thread:

1. The SCCA is, believe it or not, a member driven organization. If someone wants something changed, such as a car's classification, then propose it to the SCCA along with some compelling arguments and it can happen. Example: the pre-99 Miata move to ES. That didn't happen by itself. Someone had to propose it in the first place.

I'm an active member of the local SCCA, and that's exactly how things usually get changed in our region.

2. Keep in mind that the current car classification is a product of evolution and is constantly changing. It will never be perfect and always subject to tweaking.

3. Car classification is not a simple process, and there are a number of factors involved, including political ones.

Overall, I still think the SCCA has done a good job with classfication. Not perfect, but what is?

 

A few comments:

To be honest, classing the 944 fairly isn't a priority for the SCCA since very few of them show up, and they weren't competitive nationally before the move anyway.

Whether the M1.5 Miatas are faster than the MR2s is a subject of frenzied debate -- it's definitely not something to be taken for granted.

Reviving ES made sense because class participation numbers were shrinking, due in part to the perception that you needed a '93-'95 hardtop MR2 with ABS to win. Problem is, Toyota didn't make more than a handful of cars with that combination of options, so people were going crazy cutting the roofs off of sunroof-equipped cars and welding on hard tops, retrofitting ABS at great expense, etc. M1.5 Miatas are plentiful and cheap, and will almost definitely boost ES class participation.

Celicas have won GS at Nationals the last three years running, so I'd hardly say the non-LSD Minis are dominating GS. An SEB member has opined publicly that the SEB felt that the car's closer to GS-level than DS-level, but I'd say this was far and away the most controversial of the recent classing changes.

Steve

 

First of all, there is a notion here that I wish to dispell: A more expensive car doesn't necessarily mean that it will perform better! An $40k Elise will outperform just about anything out there today. A home built Lotus 7 kit car will put the 'smack down' on tons of hardware costing multiple times the price of the lowly Lotus. If SCCA is using car prices as a guage to measure where they are classified, that's just BS, and I don't mean B-Stock!
Um, no: the Vette is NOT the highest price of entry of any stock class. Consider the following (New price of cars in stock classes):
Acura NSX: Class: A-Stock. MSRP ~ $89,765.00
Dodge Viper SRT-10: Class: Super-Stock MSRP: ~ $84,795.00
Jaguar XKR: Class: A-Stock MSRP: ~ $81,995.00
Lotus Espirit V8: Class: Uncertain - SS I think? MSRP: $89,825.00
Maserati Coupe: Class A-Stock MSRP: $86,000.00 - $90,000.00
Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG: Class A-Stock MSRP: $78,570.00
Mercedes-Benz SLK33 AMG: Class: A-Stock MSRP: $56,170.00
Morgan Aero 8: Class: B-Stock MSRP: $95,000.00

Now granted, some of the cars listed above will never see a parking lot filled with cones: heck it's been a while since I've seen a Morgan on the road! But the list is proof that there are expensive (and exclusive & rare) cars running in stock classes.

If you are arguing that Porsches aren't in stock classes because they are priced out of the 'fair competition' range, then how can you explain the NSX? It is a limited number, high cost production car, like GT3 and GT2. There may be less GT3's than NSX's, but there are certainly more 996 TT's, yet the NSX is allowed to run in AS, while the 996TT is not eligible for stock classes at all!!

Given the prices of the cars in my list above, your argument that the high end Porsches are too expensive, and thus need to be bumped up or out of the stock classes, is absurd.

Some notes:
1. I am curious to see how they will classify the new BMW M5 and the Audi A4 V8.
2 Here is a list of cars that are NOT eligible for Stock classification in SCCA Solo 2 competition:
BMW 325 M-Technic
BMW M3 Lightweight
BMW Z8
Callaway Corvette
Dodge Viper (NOC)
Ferrari 355 and 360
Firebird Firehawk
Lotus Elan M-100
Mini Works Package
Mustang Cobra R
Oldsmobile 442 HO W-41 (Sports package option)
Porsche 911 GT2 ('02+)
Porsche 911 GT3
Porsche 911 Turbo (AWD)
Saleen Mustang (supercharged)

I guess we Porsche owners should be happy: we're better off than the Lambo crowd: there are no Lambourghini's at all in stock classes. (Same is true for Panoz.)
-Z-man.

 

I don't have time for a long reply, but here's a short one:

Z-man, I didn't make my point clear. There is no rule on maximum expense in Stock (although I believe there should be) -- as you pointed out, there are several very expensive cars classed there. The guideline, however, is that a car that would threaten the top of a class should not be classed there if it's significantly more expensive than the other top cars. That's why the Z4 was moved to AS. That's why the GT3 is in ASP. That's why the Ferrari 360 Modena was moved to ASP -- it did very well in SS for a short period of time, then was moved to avoid tripling the SS price of entry.

None of the expensive cars you listed are really threats in their classes, with the possible exception of the Viper. If someone wants to spend a ton of money to lose, that's fine. The scenario that they're trying to avoid is forcing people to spend a ton of money to win.

Steve

 

Ok, while I don't agree with that logic, if that is what they are trying to do, then I understand their motive, but I still don't agree with their decisions.

Here's another way to look at it:
If cars like the Porsche GT3 and Ferarri 360 Stradale so dominate their class (Super-Stock in this case), perhaps 'lesser' cars should be bumped DOWN instead of said cars benig bumped out of the stock classes, even though they are stock by the rules of SCCA.

Put The Z06 in A-stock, and do a 'tricle down' method of reclassification to all stock classes. It makes more sense.

-Z.

 

But then we have two options:

1. Keep the same number of classes, and render hundreds of drivers of inexpensive HS cars obsolete to accommodate a few privileged drivers of exotic SS cars.

2. Add a new exotic class at the top. Will that class have thirty to fifty cars at Nationals like the other Stock classes do? If it doesn't, you've just created a national champion who bought his jacket instead of winning it.

Neither scenario is a good one, in my opinion.

Steve

 

Been gone for a couple of days with Hurricane Jeanne repairs, fun reading the latest posts. I would sum up Pedal Faster's comments as the COST doesn't matter UNLESS it has a chance of winning. If I owned a GT3, I wish, I would like to be classed FAIRLY based on potential not price.

Peter

 

All of these morally righteous proclamations are all well and good , but no one's answered my earlier questions:

Would you continue autocrossing if the car to have in your class cost three times what your car cost? Do you think SS participation numbers would remain what they are today if the cost to compete in the class tripled?

I believe most people would answer no to at least one of those questions; I don't understand how one could answer no to either of those questions and yet still hold that the GT3 should go into SS. To spin it a different way, why do a dozen GT3 owners (I'd say that's a very optimistic estimate of how many people would consider a serious national-level run in the car) deserve to be treated "fairly" at the expense of hundreds of Corvette and Elise owners?

Making classing decisions without giving any thought to the long-term consequences is bad.

Edit: Pretend you're an employee of a company whose function is to class cars. Present the business case for moving the GT3 to Super Stock. Outline the possible positive and negative effects of the change. So far all I've seen on this thread has been people complaining, "Oh, it's not fair!", without considering what would happen, good or bad, if the change was made. I've tried to present my case here, but I've been pointedly ignored. If your case is really that strong, you should be easily able to rebut my points and present your compelling arguments of your own. If anyone's going to convince the SEB, they're going to need a better-elucidated argument than (no offense) " ".

Steve

 

Well, yes. As a matter of fact, in the autocrosses I have participated in, my car, a 944S2 is outclassed. In national P9 class, you have stock 944S2, 944 Turbo S, and 968's running. Guess what? My 944S2 is the low man on the totem pole. I went to the Zone 1 autox last year, and I was up against two 968's. Day one, I was trounced by the eventual winner, and 2 seconds behind the second place 968. At the end of day 1, I chatted with the 2nd play 968 driver, and he basically wrote me off, in a kind sorta way. "Yeah, the 944S2's a nice car, but you're not gonna be competitive in P9 with THAT." Well, I showed him: I overcame the 2 second deficit on day two and snatched second place from that guy! While I didn't take first place in class, that was the sweetest 2nd place trophy I've ever won! (I'm looking at it right now! ) There was a local event this year where the champion from a few years back showed up in his 968. Again, I got the same kinda attitude - nice car, but you'll never win. Beat him by half a second! Some folks like me enjoy playing the underdog.
If there are truly only a dozen or so GT3 owners that autocross on a national level, what harm would it do to let them play in the class in which they rightfully belong?
What is this, a high school paper? Do I need to hand in a rough draft and a bibliography first? When is the due date?

I will consider your proposal, but I gotta think about it first...

-Z-man.

 

Steve, basically what I've gotten out of all your posts is that the GT3 would decisively win SS and therefore it can't be put there because then everyone would be obsoleted who doesn't drive the superior Porsche. Where are the tangible results that support this classification?

You seem to shrug at Zman's post re: car costs because they're wouldn't be competitive. You have stats that show the GT3 kicks Corvette *** even though there are 100's of Corvettes out there and maybe only 15 serious national GT3s?

From what I can garner, SCCA has simply classed based on fear and whoever cries the loudest (you mentioned to me earlier that it would take a writing campaign to move a 930 out of SS).

 

Well, (a) you didn't answer my price question, and (b) after reading your answer, I've realized I should rephrase my question anyway.

If you were a nationally-competitive driver, would you continue spending tens of thousands of dollars, and weeks out of every year, traveling across the country competing in national-level autocross competition if the car to have in your class cost three times what your car cost? Do you think national-level SS participation numbers would remain what they are today if the cost to compete in the class tripled?

The reason I made these slight adjustments is that these classes only matter at the national level anyway. Z-man, as your example illustrates, at the local level driving skill trumps car prep almost all of the time. It's generally only at the national level where a tenth of a second will consistently make a difference.

Because, if no other car has a chance to win SS at Nationals, the non-GT3 drivers won't come, killing what was once a healthy class.

No, but you're proposing a change which could potentially obsolete millions of dollars invested in current SS cars -- not a decision to me made lightly.

What you should have gotten out of my posts is that the GT3 could decisively win SS, which would be bad since drivers of other cars would be required to invest three times what they'd previously invested to remain competitive. Whether it would is actually only moderately relevant -- the point is that, in the face of a huge risk (obsoleting millions of dollars of hardware), why make a change which carries with it only a tiny potential benefit (a few dozen cars now have a more competitive place to play).

On the thread that NJ-GT started on an SCCA forum, there are links to posts by two national champions who, after driving both the GT3 and the Z06, are of the opinion that the GT3 would be the faster car. Real world experience from national champion-caliber drivers is far more meaningful than magazine stats.

Exactly. If the cars aren't competitive, then their presence in a class doesn't increase the cost to win that class, because the expensive cars aren't required to win.

The SCCA classes based on the experience of autocrosses far better than you or I will ever be, and consider input from its membership rather than making arbitrary decisions that would hurt many to help just a few.

Anyway, I get the message. You guys like Porsches, and believe that any unfavorable SCCA classing decision is unfair and the result of anti-Porsche sentiment. I understand the SCCA's rationale and have tried to explain it, but you are not interested in hearing dissenting opinions, so after thousands of words of explanation, you continue to willfully or otherwise misinterpret my points to "prove" the bias. I've realized that I'm not welcome here, and since this is a Porsche board, I will concede -- I'll leave Rennlist and its xenophobia and return to my SCCA board where people like all sports cars, not just German ones with little crests on the hood. Congratulations; I'm sure bullying me off of the board will help you against the non-Porsches at your next autocross.

Have fun in your little sandbox,
Steve

 

First of all, the GT3 isn't three times the price of the Vette Z06. The GT3 costs less than twice the cost of a Z06.
MSRP:
2004 Vette Z06: $52,385
2004 Porsche GT3: $101,965.
The GT3 is still a more expensive car, but NOT three times the price. I suggest you check your numbers before posting stats like that.
I'd really like for you to explain how the Acura NSX can run in AS despite it's heafty price tag AND performance.
Also: explain this: the 1993 Mazda RX-7 runs in Super Stock. According to Kelly Blue book, this car is worth around $11,000. So, the Vette Z06 is worth five times the value of the RX-7! IF you apply the same rule to the Z06 as you do to the GT3, then the Z06 shouldn't be running in SS either!
But yes I did! Perhaps I should clarify: A stock 968 costs more than twice as much as my 944S2.
According to Bruce Anderson & Excellence:
1989 944S2 in good condition: $7853.00
1995 968 in good condition: $17704.00
Note: A 968 is worth more than twice the price of my 944S2! And both cars run in SCCA's B-stock class, along with other cars that are worth many times more the value of my car! Injustice!! FOUL!!! It's not fair!!! I THINK ALL CARS MORE EXPENSIVE THAN MINE IN B-STOCK SHOULD BE DUMPED TO CSP!!!!
If I'm running in SS, how is it that I am going to spend tens of thousands of dollars on my car?!? I thought STOCK classes meant I can't really mess around with much of anything! Even if I ran the most expensive Hoosiers, and ran new tires at every event, I can't see how I'm gonna spend $10,000 on my SOLO 2 campaign. I suppose the Vette owners are cheating? Or is it that the Vette REQUIRES that much money to maintain it? If that's the case, then what's the difference between buying a Vette for $52k, spending another $50k to maintain it vs. buying a GT3 and paying $100 up front and having a worry free season?!?
Again, your numbers don't make sense. Can you please clarify how a SOLO 2 competitor in Super Stock spends "tens of thousands of dollars" on his car to be competitive. Also explain the difference between spending such money up front (ala the GT3) or spending it afterwards (ala the Z06, like you suggest).
Are you implying that unless you compete on the national level, that you don't matter?! BULL! It is the local autocross where all the national level competitors cut their teeth on autocross. Do not discount the local programs: without them, there would never be a national championship.
Our local autocross program is very competitive. I once came in second only 0.006 seconds behind my nemisis, Phil. (He was driving a 944S, BTW). Here are some other time differences between first and second place participants in various classes this year: 0.022 seconds, 0.028 seconds, 0.070 seconds, 0.043 seconds, 0.092 seconds, 0.042 seconds.... And that's just a few differences between first and second places in class!

Again, where is all this money going? Certainly not in the cars, because they aren't allowed to modify much!! Please offer a breakdown of these millions of dollars and where they are going....
First, just because a couple of national level competitors said the GT3 is too much for SS, that doesn't mean it doesn't belong there!
Second, a GT3 costs less than twice the price of a Vette Z06. If you invest "tens of thousands of dollars" into a Z06 like you state above, then the two cars become very similar in price.
Because it is not right to exclude a car from a given class just because it is priced more than the favored car! Such a decision is based completely on politics and not on the true spirit of the sport - fair competition!
Wait - you are basing your opinion that the GT3 is better than the Z06 based on TWO PEOPLE?!? Yeah, that's a staggering percentage of national level drivers! I'll bet you a thousand bucks that BOTH of those drivers own Z06's!!! (Political, I said, political!)
Nice judgement call!

For me, here is the bottom line:
1. If you can buy "stock out of the box" car off the showroom floor, it should be able to run in stock classes, no matter what brand/marque/country of origin. (Tuner cars, like the Saleen Mustang, Ruf Porsches...etc. are obviously excluded from this.)
2. If a car outperforms all other cars in its class, it may need to be bumped up, but it should not be put in a street prepared or modified class if the car manufacturer considers it to be a street-driven stock example.
3. If a car outperforms all other cars in its class, that gives a reason for the other car manufacturers to step up to the plate and make a better car. (Why do you think the C6 Z06 will be a better car than the C5 Z06? To keep up with the competition! Same applies to racing!)
4. If the only reason a car is dumped out of a class is because it is much more expensive than the other cars running in said class, that move is politically charged and unfair.
5. If price is the reason for moving cars, then that rule should be applied to ALL cars. (NSX, for example)
I am sorry we do not see eye to eye on this subject. There is no need to act in such a way as you do here Steve. Like you stated, you are on a Porsche board - Porsche enthusiasts participate in these forums. Are we biased towards Porsches? Probably. But most of us here respect other cars as well. (IF I only had the $$ to buy a new Lotus Elise....) You have to admit that the way SCCA is going about classing the GT3, on the surface level doesn't look like they are playing fair. Yeah, the GT3's a fantastic car (I had the chance to drive one at an autocross - Thanks NJ-GT!) but that doesn't mean it should be moved out of Super Stock.

Sorry for the long post,
-Z-man.

 

Dear All:

SEB Decision on GT3 and Lotus Elise

The decision to include the GT3 and the Lotus Elise in the SS class is in progress.

Honestly, I think the car to have will be the Lotus Elise Sport Package with its wider wheels and adjustable full coilover suspension.

As I posted in the SCCA forums, I believe that in stock form the Z06 has an edge on the GT3.

NJ_GT 911GT3 vs. Corvette Z06

In my opinion, a GT3 has better chances to be competitive in ASP with all the allowed modifications than to be competitive in SS.

 

To Pedalfaster, I say, HA! (Just kidding - I don't mean to offend).

Regarding Z06 drivers looking for a more competitive edge: when is the C6 Z06 coming out?! I am sure that will help up the ante in SS, maybe even trounce the GT3!

-Z-man.