saxonite

I’m not but hoping for once the SCCA does something logical for once.

They already did this with the 997 cars. The first year they allowed DSC my 997 was in SS and then they moved it to AS. Until SST became a thing I would run the car in SSP, this class is not popular in my area. For a long time I would run an Acura RSX type S and towards the end of the 2000’s and the start of the 2010’s during the Street Touring restructuring, I was in a different class nearly every year (STS, ST, STF, STX) and I’d have to install and remove stuff as the class changed. As much as I would like to believe they allow this in lower classes as they move SS cars into different classes but with what I’ve seen them do in the past, I’m not confident.

You are so correct with the contradiction of SCCA and making sense. Altering dampening settings on factory shocks is illegal but installing very high end aftermarket shocks is okay.

edfishjr

The reason I said "Don't hold your breath":

-This subject has been discussed quite extensively on various forums. The SCCA is aware of a major problem with allowing tuning of electronics shocks in other Street classes. This does not guarantee that the SCCA will or will not do or not do anything, but I think it has given them pause. Enough to just allow it in SS and gather data. (In SS, the SCCA does not worry much about the cost to the competitor.)
-The SCCA heard from several people who are experts in the field. From my perspective, it seemed like the more knowledgeable the person was in this field the more strongly they warned against allowing it in Street.
-What the SCCA heard was that the potential of this technology to improve autocross lap times has hardly been scratched with what's on the market today. These experts predicted that, if they allowed it into the other Street classes, very soon the SCCA would be in a position where it would be mandatory to have tunable electronic shocks to compete. Cars with passive suspensions would no longer be competitive with existing, tuned OEM electronic shocks no matter how much money they spent. Wholesale reclassing would be required, or allow passive shock cars to upgrade to aftermarket electronic, i.e. starting an expensive tech war where your speed is dependent upon the existence or non-existence of aftermarket offerings.
-Furthermore, cars with current generation OEM electronic shocks (like PASM) would also quickly be made obsolete by newer OEM versions that had more base capability and therefore more capability when tuned. So, very quickly you could have a situation where everyone with existing OEM active shocks would be hopelessly slow, even when tuned, unless they were allowed a very expensive upgrade path.

edit: in the face of this issue, I think it much more likely that, if a change is made, it will be a take-back in the form of stock OEM shocks only in Street.

dps214

I kind of understand keeping it out of street class. But it's laughable that it's not allowed in any class below SM/XS. You can tune your trans and e-diff in ST, but tuning your e-dampers is a bridge too far, apparently.

Z3papa

If the 718 S/GTS is moved to AS with no DSC, I will also have a controller for sale with little regret despite feeling that it does improve calibrations over the OE controller.

saxonite

I completely understand all the arguments for and against it. Yes cost is an issue SCCA needs to take into consideration but when looking at the top tier of drivers, many of them run custom valved shocks that can approach the 5 digit price range and bring multiple sets of wheels and tires dependent on track temp. You still have to drive the car but it still comes down to the size of the checkbook.

My big issue is when items become legal then they move car classes and something that was legal no longer is anymore. The amount of time and money I spent putting things on then taking off my Acura was a bit tough handle at times while in college and fresh out. This isn’t too bad because I can just pop the DSC out but I would rather keep it in the car.

edfishjr

I run custom-valved Penskes in my Corvette autocross car... custom valved by Penske to my spec: $4K

If I get a Cayman for next year it will have custom-valved Bilstein struts that will be about the same cost.

I've casually looked at the $10K stuff, but 1) we are limited to only 2 adjusters in Street, and 2) most of the cost increase, I think, is for features/capabilities oriented to track usage, not autocross, so never really considered them. I'm unconvinced that I would change the high-speed characteristics of my double-digressive shocks much even if I could.

I just realized something: it should be legal in ST to install Tractive Touring struts into a PASM car. Right?

stellman

Yes, looking to do that switch next year. Might have to run a custom spring perch but haven’t looked into it deep enough.

dps214

$4k is still 3x the cost of a DSC tuner. And there's no revalve costs or needing to climb under the car or pull the shocks off to make adjustments. Just a few seconds with the computer.

You can run aftermarket dampers with the stock controller...but I have no idea why you'd ever do that. It'll still have all the same issues as stock, just with stiffer springs. If you're getting aftermarket parts you might as well save the money on the active stuff and just get good passive coilovers.

daaa nope

Just more of the "doesn't make sense" with SCCA. . I know guys who have spent 4-figures having custom valving done for their Koni's on their E-Street Miatas. "We are trying to control costs" when people are spending 20% of their car's value on shocks = LOL

Either it's "stock" or it's not. And if it's "fun with cars" then I think they have a lot of stuff backwards, because all the basic "fun" bolt-ons your typical person would want to do would punt you into SM. And for 99% of the field, they'd never capitalize on the performance gains anyways.

Well you can't change the springs, only the dampers. Which, still, to your point - doesn't solve the issue with these cars anyways. And if you're gonna toss the PASM stuff for a good set of 2-way adjustable coilovers... you're punted to the class with all the retarded stuff anyways, and no sympathy because the average onlooker sees "Porsche" and thinks "fast".

edfishjr

I admit I haven't though it thru, but it goes something like this:
-there's no revalve costs or needing to climb under the car or pull the shocks off to make adjustments. Just a few seconds with the computer.
-the Tractives seem to have more range, meaning maybe they can handle the stiffer springs where a PASM strut car normally could not

but, I guess I just realized the problem: the PASM controller won't take advantage of the Tractive strut.

The issue I have with the DSC controller being much less than $4K is that I don't think first gen PASM, DSC controller or not, is actually better than good passives. So, I'd take the PASM struts out even if DSC were allowed in other Street classes.

dps214

That's further reason to allow it. It's cheaper and not the best option, what reason is there for it to not be allowed?

edfishjr

See post #63, above.

For instance, if you could put tractive struts in and tune them I think it would be faster than any passive setup with the stock springs.

daaa nope

Waiting for the computer to boot, connect to the device, push the changes.... vs. sticking your hand underneath and twisting a ****. I'd argue it's more difficult to use the computer. One of several reasons I quickly went "meh" on the DSC box - I don't want to bring my laptop to an event. My old Cayman had JRZ's on it - I didn't even need to have my eyes open to find and adjust the comp ***** underneath. Only took an event or two to have "the position" down - sit here, arm this way, shoulder that way, reach around and click...

And in the end - I'm not at all convinced it's the advantage everyone thinks it is. A fast driver will be fast no matter what the equipment is. Usually the expensive equipment and tweaks help someone to maybe be a little more consistent overall but it's not going to take a backmarker and land them FTD.

dps214

Didn't realize you were talking about ST. That's real easy, make it an either/or allowance. But ultimately the performance advantage of both together is little to nothing. It might streamline the tuning process a bit but that's about it.

edfishjr

Sorry if I was confusing. I was initially talking only about Street, then changed target and asked a question about ST. Then I went back to Street with the concept of using PASM springs, replacement (better) struts (which are already free) then adding in tuning, which so many people want to allow in Street.

That combo, tuned correctly, I think would have the ability to dominate any passive P-car setup and any tuned PASM car setup, meaning that all existing P-cars would need to upgrade immediately to be competitive.