proTUNING Freaks

jazz997tt

Love these kits! I am thinking if I go with the Alpha 10 kit I don't have to build my motor right away because you guys can dial it back for me until I get the rods and head studs and build the motor?

TB993tt

Have any of these Alpha kitted 997s been driven flat out for more than a mile ? I'd love to see one run a 1.6 mile vmax run, the boost to achieve these sorts of power levels would cause massive heat after 30+ seconds of loading and without the meth injection used by many of these types of builds it wouldn't be pretty !

They are claiming 1063NM for the kit without rods, in Europe our engines tend to bend the rods at the 830NM level when used flat out on the Autobahn.....

proTUNING Freaks

Yes, we would basically have a custom tune tailored to the stock motor to keep the rods safe and sound until you're ready to take the plunge and add rods. Feel free to email me for any other tuning related questions at all dzenno@protuningfreaks.com.

Great questions and concerns, let me try and clarify and we can discuss.

Our custom tuning is one of the things that really helps take full advantage of any given setup out there as we gather your input on what you'd like to set up your given modification stack for and it doesn't only pertain to AMS kits. We work with you to build the tuning to your needs by dialing in any given setup and review logs to ensure it is running safe. Our tuning services also don't stop once we've built the tune. You're more than welcome to get in touch with us at any time after we're done to review/adjust the tune for any purpose without additional charges unless the mod configuration of the car changes substantially (e.g. built motor higher displacement with larger turbos etc).

Road course tunes typically are/can be very different from street tunes which are also different from tunes set up for mile or 2 extended WOT pulls. You hit the nail on the head in a way and it really all comes down to tailoring tuning to a given purpose. For someone looking for a fun street tune where they do at most a few 3rd-4th gear pulls here and there and getting the most out of the car for that vs. road course for instance our default approaches would differ in power/torque delivery where road course/mile events would have more attention to heat management.

One thing to keep in mind is that numbers posted by AMS are rated at the crank and are provided as an example of what the kits are capable of for most people out there. Over the years it has been proven that keeping torque at ~650ft-lbs at all 4 wheels is within reasonable safety margins for the stock motor. AMS numbers of 1063Nm crank translate to our Mustang 1750 AWD dyno numbers of ~600 ft-lbs at the wheels. Given appropriate tuning and no knock, the motor will live a very happy life for a very long time.

We also know that many do and have pushed quite a bit higher than that with stock motor setups showing as high as 800 ft-lbs at all 4 wheels on dynos "surviving" while later reporting after opening the motor that the rods at those torque levels did show some bending so its a numbers game and it comes down to paying attention to torque/cylinder pressures for the sake of your rods/head studs.

I'd like to stress that the quality of the hardware in this kit and engineering that has gone in it are exceptional at every level. Intercoolers are highly efficient at controlling IATs while far outflowing the OEM 997.1 units. When combined with custom tuning tailored to a given car/driver's needs tuning can be set with appropriate boost/fueling/ignition/valve timing along with various temp compensation/limiter DME tables it culminates in a really fun strong consistent and reliable setup.

You mentioned methanol injection and it is something that we highly recommend and tune with for mile long extended WOT runs to further help with IAT control and onset of knock. Meth injection certainly isn't for everyone just like 1000Nm isn't really for everyone and there's a purpose to every modification on the car. The devil's always in the details. We're here to help you guys with any questions/concerns and share our knowledge/expertise when it comes to tuning this as well as the DFI platform and share our own data gathered as we've been doing so far on 6speed.

Dzenno@PTF

Team Plutonium

Very cool. And a lot of great information. Thanks guys!

TB993tt

Denzo

Many thanks for that interesting explanation.

Can you tell me are you tuning the Bosch Motronic to function in the exact same way as factory with all the safety features ?
Do you use torque load targets with ECU controlling boost/timing/fuelling to hit the targets whilst taking into account the various sensor inputs ?
If you do then surely the EGTs and IATs must get highly elevated with the sort of boost (? 1.5 bar ?) once into 5th gear, or are you saying that you wouldn't run the higher power for a user who regularly revs out in 5th and 6th gear ?

proTUNING Freaks

You're welcome sir!

We are preserving every safety system in tact in the factory DME as you can never have too many and if anything we'd LOVE to have more always Keep in mind that the DME employs a load targetting approach to tuning and most of the calibration is driven by raising torque targets and raising limit values beyond where the factory set them as otherwise you'd run into codes. For instance, factory has set the 997.1 normal mode to hit about 1bar of boost and 1.2bar in overboost mode. If we were to simply raise boost and not raise the torque limits appropriately the car would instantly limp as it'd go over the allowed limit values so when changes are made to get more power out of the car using the factory computer there are many things that need to be taken into account. Having said that, calibrations for instance for knock sensor sensitivity that regulate when to have the DME start pull timing and at what level and how quickly to ramp ignition timing back in are all preserved at factory values. We never change that on any platform we tune as we believe factory has set those values most appropriately for stock motor internals harmonics that resemble knock. There are many other safety mechanisms as well such as compressor overspeed limits, EGT based torque/load limits that cause fuel targeting to switch from the main tables to failsafe tables in efforts to pull power out of the tune and try and cool down EGTs, same goes for targeted load.

In terms of going into higher gears; the higher the gear the more load on the motor basically which in turn means that boost will come on sooner in the RPMs and depending on how your boost control is set up you can see more boost in say 5th than 4th which would yet again be higher than 3rd etc. OEM DME on the 997.1 currently doesn't allow for load targeting by gear. 997.2 DME though does which is really nice, as well as boost targeting for launch for instance. So to keep things safe if running VTGs and the OEM DME you'd tune the car with this in mind. With aftermarket non-VTG turbos if employing an electronic boost controller you can ensure that boost will always be on target and some of the more fancy ones like the Plex PBC Pro allow for boost by gear as well. You can also go with a standalone option like we've tested so far with the AEM Infinity and have the same boost by gear approach if these things are a major concern for your particular car.

There's simply a lot to be said about tuning a given platform and we can discuss it and tinker endlessly which is part of the fun! However, each car and its owner/driver have individual needs as to what they'd like to get out of their car and I know in our neck of the woods I most likely won't see anyone doing 6th gear extended WOT pulls any time soon but for our remote tune customers hitting the Autobahn for instance this is a true concern and something we go through in our tuning.

Any other questions at all feel free to drop me a line or post in here

- Dzenno
dzenno@protuningfreaks.com

TB993tt

So for non VTG like in this Alpha 9/10 kit you use some kind of external boost controller ?

Does this means the factory programming is not working how the factory intended and it is merely working with whatever fixed boost level you determine ?

Factory boost control varies the boost all the time (I have observed and logged this extensively) including overboost when changing gear giving a surge of high boost before reigning back programmed load demands.

On the safety side is it right that using an external fixed boost controller means the ECU will not be able to lower the boost in the event of elevated IAT or EGT, these can be dealt with by increased fuelling or ultimately by cutting spark but surely this is not as effective as factory's continuously adjusting M7.8 system - is it ?

proTUNING Freaks

All great questions. 997.1 DME currently doesn't have support for non-VTG boost control but that is coming soon so in the meantime IF you're running tuning with the factory DME then you'll need an external form of boost control and you're right the two would be disconnected in that configuration. Now, you have the option of using MANY forms of external boost control from manual boost controllers (not recommended) to electronic boost controllers (EBC) which are better. EBCs are not all created equally though. Some will simply do what they're intended to do and that is control boost for a given target such as Greddy for example, and they'll do that very well. Some others such as the Plex PBC Pro have actual integration with the 997.1 CANBus that you can use to set it up to basically do what the OEM DME has for safety. In the case of the OEM DME when it comes to boost control in a nutshell what you get is EGT based compensation which lowers requested load/boost as EGTs rise. Factory computer will also dump fuel as per your configured targets in this case based on observed EGTs. You can also set up the PBC Pro for boost control based on gear, RPM, vehicle speed as well as add IAT based compensation to reduce boost in case IATs get out of hand for instance, etc. Its a really versatile boost controller if not one of the most advanced on the market today.

In terms of your logging I can tell you that there is no way "today" in the OEM DME to do things such as boost by gear. Hopefully with some engineering that'll be made possible in the factory 997.1 DME like it is with the 997.2 Turbos. What you do have is boost control that is centred around load/torque targeting and it works well. If you'd like to try it, log a 2nd gear pull and compare your boost/actual load to a 6th gear pull and look at the RPM vs. boost curve. You'll see they're a little different as the DME doesn't target boost, it targets load and how much load at a given RPM the DME is hitting depends on boost control and load on the motor.

In terms of cutting spark and additional fueling in dropping EGTs those are some of the strategies but timing isn't one of them that the 997.1 will employ with the factory programming. Fuel is one of them, but, richening fuel can also raise EGTs depending on where IATs are sitting and what happens when the computer richens the mixture in those events. Again, there's so many variables that come into play that at any time you change anything about your tuning approach the rest probably needs some further attention to get perfect..

TB993tt

Very interesting stuff many thanks for answering my questions. In fact there is a way of integrating non VTG turbos with the 997.1 DME. I think it was first developed for Ruf and it was called a VTG convertor, it basically converted the signal to the VTGs into something which would operate the internal wastegates on K24s.
There were a few problems with the electronics I think it was to do with the DME adapting in some way and it ended up killing the electronic throtlle and boost seemingly randomly, also it would overshoot the targets particularly as the boost ramped up.
I have the second more advanced iteration of this device and the boost control is very good and accurate with no issues to date. It allows a big surge of overboost every time the throttle is mashed and looking at the data one can see that it the engine is always trying to hit those load targets with a combo of boost timing fuelling and MAF.

Yup I see that in all gears, In 6th I think one sees the full power (engine dyno steady state) programmed numbers as it is fully loaded all the way up to 200+

Could you elaborate more about this load/torque targeted strategy of the M7.8, I can see that the MAF varies directly with the boost (which is understandable) but how can the load numbers stay high (which they do) with less MAF/boost with one "run/log" compared to another ? Is it the density of the air changing or IAT, fuelling/timing or combo of all ?

proTUNING Freaks

Piggybacked electronics such as that VTG converter module (most likely a frequency modulator of some sort) have never been my cup of tea but many of them do work given enough time out in the field and engineering them. VTG turbos operated via duty cycle in the 250Hz I believe (don't quote me on it but pretty sure) while conventional wastegate boost control solenoids such as your typical 3-port Mac valve that is most widely used out there for internal and external wastegate control are PWM-ed at 30Hz.

In short, yes. MAF stands for mass airflow. It is the volume of air moving across the MAF sensor on the intake side which ends up getting compressed by the turbos (boost) and passed through the motor. IAT and barometric (ambient) pressure affect MAF directly as air density changes. Load itself is some internal calculation that some Bosch/Porsche engineers came up with that isn't only based on MAF but also things like coolant temp, VE, various running modelled parameters etc. The exact details around how they come up with the load calculation aren't known to us and it really is just an index value into the tables. Lower gears will not place the same amount of load on the motor as higher gears which will in turn mean MAF will differ as turbos are a great part of it which in turn can/will mean differing actual boost levels across gears (e.g. lower gears not being able to hit higher targets as quickly as higher gears) which in turn will play into the calculated load equations. Excuse the crazy talk if I'm going way too into detail here on my end as I do tend to wonder off at times too far for a simple question

Dzenno@PTF

TB993tt

Again many thanks for your insights.

So I'm particularly interested in the short falls of the fixed boost set ups or more accurately the benefits of what the factory/Bosch did.

So if I multiply the MAF by the load figure as a percentage it comes out near 3000 (6th column from left)

The 3000 number per se doesn't mean anything but what I'm interested in is that the program demands the high levels of boost low down the rev range which corresponds to the high demanded load numbers (actually I'm sure it's the other way round but...) then the boost level falls off as the revs rise corresponding to the load dropping and the MAF rising.

So this constant 3000 number is presumably a target to aim for to give maximum "safe" torque - what is your take on this Denzo do you think my tuner aims for "3000" as a target somewhere or is this just where the numbers fall after harmonizing everything during engine dyno testing ?

proTUNING Freaks

Hard to say what your tuner was trying to accomplish but if he was tuning by the book I'd assume he would try to tune the car not just for max power under the curve for a street tune but, since you mentioned long 30+sec pulls, he'd tune you more for heat management and consider compressor and intercooler efficiency and your EGTs/IATs of utmost importance. Is your tune custom or more of an off the shelf type flash calibration?

In terms of a constant you found that relates MAF and Load, that is very plausible as those two are VERY closely related.

Dzenno@PTF

TB993tt

My tuner wrote the book, he "invented" the twin parallel turbo Porsche Mezger back in the late 80s when Porsche were playing with sequential turbos in the 959

Very interesting thanks for all your insight

proTUNING Freaks

LOL oh boy not one of those!